On 09/04/2020 at 12:36, MyFavouriteMartian said:

When the West was broadly wealthy,  and wanted to remain so,  it was an in-house scheme.  And WE kept the others out of it, and down on their LUCK.   Mostly Asians and Africans and Sth Americans.

We kept them down to maximise our wealth.

 

Then our top enterprise leaders wanted to outsource our industries to gain further margins as our middle classes grew to take more.

 We were a part of their backwardness,  in education and development, and then,  all of a sudden,  we were a part of their fast growth and desire for wealth.

We have been a part of their lives and customs for centuries.  And so have influenced them from afar.  We are responsible for what they do,  to a fair degree,  for what we've done,  and what we didn't do to help them along the journey.

Call it religion differences,  philosophical differences, or just plain rivalry,  but we were adversaries in our minds,  and took that stance against them.  In a combative world of fear.

 

So as much as we are connected Now,  we always were,  even if we thought differently.  Modern technology only shows it more apparently. 

We all share a very small rock...  with other Life.

so its the white patriarchal racist western colonialism to blame.....rightio, gotcha......

  On 09/04/2020 at 13:20, daisycutter said:

so its the white patriarchal racist western colonialism to blame.....rightio, gotcha......

No, we all share it,  the blame,  just as we all share the planet.  What happens of the planet by our doings,  is all our responsibility.

So,  I say all religions,  politics,  and philosophy's are to blame... in short, all educated people are at fault,  for it all.  good and bad.

 

Negativeness,  = Greed and Fear (see religions western),  are the fault of humans, and of all the above.

Thank god for the ignore function.

  On 09/04/2020 at 13:32, MyFavouriteMartian said:

No, we all share it,  the blame,  just as we all share the planet.  What happens of the planet by our doings,  is all our responsibility.

So,  I say all religions,  politics,  and philosophy's are to blame... in short, all educated people are at fault,  for it all.  good and bad.

 

Negativeness,  = Greed and Fear (see religions western),  are the fault of humans, and of all the above.

I have gone into the business of selling soap boxes, but I will you one for free.

TheAge article title: "From Babies to patients in their 90's, there are now 1241 COVID cases in Victoria"

Incorrect, there are 480 cases, the rest have recovered.  any chance of giving us the full picture?

  On 10/04/2020 at 04:09, DubDee said:

TheAge article title: "From Babies to patients in their 90's, there are now 1241 COVID cases in Victoria"

Incorrect, there are 480 cases, the rest have recovered.  any chance of giving us the full picture?

We have never had the full pictureDD. Cases is the most meaningless and confected term in this whole crisis. That our leaders political and medical have then used this as the basis for modelling has meant what was a  medical crisis was expanded to an economic crisis. It is now being used to effect ideological change.

  On 10/04/2020 at 05:17, dpositive said:

Cases is the most meaningless and confected term in this whole crisis. That our leaders political and medical have then used this as the basis for modelling has meant what was a  medical crisis was expanded to an economic crisis. It is now being used to effect ideological change.

Foolishly, I'll bite.

If analysing the number of cases through time isn't an informative way to model a health crisis, can you suggest what might be?

Call me crazy, but I'd suggest that the world's leading medical scientists might actually be somewhat clever, and have a better grasp of their models than random posters on a footy forum.

Also, you're truly delusional if you think the economic impacts were in any way avoidable. Governments don't tank economies for fun.

 

  On 10/04/2020 at 05:17, dpositive said:

We have never had the full pictureDD. Cases is the most meaningless and confected term in this whole crisis. That our leaders political and medical have then used this as the basis for modelling has meant what was a  medical crisis was expanded to an economic crisis. It is now being used to effect ideological change.

Stop adding to the garbage that is being written about this problem.

'Cases',  as a terminology,  is OK for scientists to use when speaking of their findings.

 

It is not OK for politicians to use that term, 'Re people',  when talking to the general public;  because they can deliberately use it to normalise and minimal-ise,  to undermine the damage done to peoples lives,  and to communities.

 

Edited April 10, 20205 yr by MyFavouriteMartian

  On 09/04/2020 at 13:20, daisycutter said:

so its the white patriarchal racist western colonialism to blame.....rightio, gotcha......

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-52146507

 

"In normal times, Vijay Mahtaney and his partners Amit Mahtaney and Shawn Islam employ a total of 18,000 workers in three countries - Bangladesh, India and Jordan. But the outbreak has forced them to shut down the majority of the business, with just one factory, in Dhaka, partially operational.

Coronavirus lockdowns aren't the only thing affecting their ability to pay their workers. They say their main problem is unreasonable demands from big clients - mainly in the US and the UK.

"Some brands are showing a true sense of partnership and high level of ethics in trying to ensure at least enough cash flow to pay workers," Amit Mahtaney, the chief executive of Tusker Apparel Jordan, told the BBC. "

•  

"But we've also experienced demands for cancellations for goods that are ready or are work in progress, or discounts for outstanding payments and for goods in transit. They are also asking for a 30 to 120 day extensions on previously agreed payment terms."

In an email obtained by the BBC, one US retailer has asked for a 30% discount "for all payables - current or order", including those already delivered.

The reason they cite is to "get through this extraordinary period".

"Their attitude is one of protecting only shareholder value without any regard to the garment worker, behaving in a hypocritical manner, showing complete disregard to their ethos of responsible sourcing," Vijay Mahtaney said.

"Brand focus on share price, now means some of them don't have money for this rainy day, and are coming to the weakest link in the supply chain, asking us to help them out when they could be applying for a bailout from the US government stimulus package," Vijay added.

 

  On 10/04/2020 at 05:44, Accepting Mediocrity said:

Foolishly, I'll bite.

If analysing the number of cases through time isn't an informative way to model a health crisis, can you suggest what might be?

Call me crazy, but I'd suggest that the world's leading medical scientists might actually be somewhat clever, and have a better grasp of their models than random posters on a footy forum.

Also, you're truly delusional if you think the economic impacts were in any way avoidable. Governments don't tank economies for fun.

 

I did work in the health industry when we had an infectious diseases hospital which was basically empty awaiting the next outbreak. Laboratories were filled with world renown scientists who kept abreast of techniques to respond quickly to any threats. We also had epidemiologists who were alert to tracking and testing techniques to undertake to provide accurate information. We also had a National laboratory capable of isolating large numbers of people.

For a variety of reasons these facilities were allowed to deteriorate and the expertise dispersed.

Unfortunately this health crisis was not responded to with resources provided to the health system including utilising the private systems resources which have only lately been recognised.

Cases is a confected device as it only relates to those tested. It does not relate to any total population figure. Testing was compromised by the availability and reliability of kits. Cases was queried when they came out of China as unreliable. Selective testing will yeild different outcomes. Testing 200 on a cruise ship will yeild a different result from 200 tests in remote WA. And of course  increasing or reducing total tests will yeild different numbers of cases.

More meaningfulwould be the total number tested the number of cases infected, the number displaying symptoms, the number admitted, the number discharged, the number to ICU and the number dead.

You are correct that no government tanks an economy for fun. This government was already overseeing an economy which was failing. It was not in the black and debt was at record levels despite their delusion. They displayed their incompetence by issuing economic stimulus policy then the next day closing down most economic activity. This government has not tanked the economy for fun but it is incompetent and acting out of desperation. It has done many things well but it adopted a model out of that desperation that has many unknowns. 

As a random poster I also don't have the resources and knowledge to provide any reassuring end game. I am concerned that the scientists may be operating in isolation and social distancing which will delay the progress of collegiate, transparent and robust discussion and debate. Some internet systems can improve communication but it is notable that at every stage of our societal development conferences and gatherings were always utilised to consolidate findings.

Not concerned at your foolish response. Complex ideas need a forum to debate and refine detail in a perhaps more rational and articulate fashion. I perhaps have not added to that process and am happy to retreat.

  On 10/04/2020 at 06:01, drysdale demon said:

Stop adding to the garbage that is being written about this problem.

Too late see previous response.

I only referred to cases and it's meaningless.

Our government has done some things well with the hand it was holding. The run down health system, the reduced research and internal manufacturing and production capacity which affected supply, its own delusion of its economic position with an arrogance of its ideological stance made for the crisis we are now in. We are far down the track and have bought time at a cost which has also been confected. The government did not appear to know that Centrelink would be overwhelmed. "My bad " Minister recognised his incompetence again but we continue to stumble forward. Knee jerk reactions maintaining fear, with discretionary exemptions.

Why oh why were hairdressers exempt and how will they resolve the contradiction of school attendance.What will happen to the free child care at the end of the magical mythical 6 months. Where is any of the income for this expenditure coming from. The hated labor initiated superannuation is already being further destroyed.

its no wonder bottle shops are booming 

  On 10/04/2020 at 06:24, MyFavouriteMartian said:

 

"Their attitude is one of protecting only shareholder value without any regard to the garment worker, behaving in a hypocritical manner, showing complete disregard to their ethos of responsible sourcing," Vijay Mahtaney said.

 

Lol, that's funny mfm.

I'll bet good 'ole vijay and his partners and executives (plus all the bureaucratic leeches), grab most of that customer moolah and their employees get the dregs at the bottom of the barrel anyway.........but when it suits him he uses his downtrodden employees as sympathy fodder....

but you believe what you want

 

  On 10/04/2020 at 06:46, dpositive said:

Cases is a confected device as it only relates to those tested. It does not relate to any total population figure. Testing was compromised by the availability and reliability of kits. Cases was queried when they came out of China as unreliable. Selective testing will yeild different outcomes. Testing 200 on a cruise ship will yeild a different result from 200 tests in remote WA. And of course  increasing or reducing total tests will yeild different numbers of cases.

More meaningfulwould be the total number tested the number of cases infected, the number displaying symptoms, the number admitted, the number discharged, the number to ICU and the number dead.

Of course there are limitations to the case data, but you need to start somewhere. Scientists are well aware of the limitations, and build uncertainty into their models accordingly. Models will improve as the issues with the data are resolved, but that takes time - and time is the enemy. If we'd waited for the full picture before we reacted, we'd currently be making NY look like paradise. Regardless, of course their models account for deaths, cases admitted vs discharged, etc - but debating models that neither of us understand is a bit of a pointless exercise. 

As for the 'excuse to effect ideological change' line - who knows, perhaps a timely reminder that there are some potential downsides to complete globalization isn't such a bad thing.

Anyway, my initial post came across harsher than I meant - sorry mate, didn't mean to launch a personal attack. 

  On 10/04/2020 at 07:02, dpositive said:

Too late see previous response.

I only referred to cases and it's meaningless.

Our government has done some things well with the hand it was holding. The run down health system, the reduced research and internal manufacturing and production capacity which affected supply, its own delusion of its economic position with an arrogance of its ideological stance made for the crisis we are now in. We are far down the track and have bought time at a cost which has also been confected. The government did not appear to know that Centrelink would be overwhelmed. "My bad " Minister recognised his incompetence again but we continue to stumble forward. Knee jerk reactions maintaining fear, with discretionary exemptions.

Why oh why were hairdressers exempt and how will they resolve the contradiction of school attendance.What will happen to the free child care at the end of the magical mythical 6 months. Where is any of the income for this expenditure coming from. The hated labor initiated superannuation is already being further destroyed.

its no wonder bottle shops are booming 

I think you are being a bit on the hysterical side. Lie down for a couple of months and take in some deep breaths.

  On 10/04/2020 at 07:22, daisycutter said:

Lol, that's funny mfm.

I'll bet good 'ole vijay and his partners and executives (plus all the bureaucratic leeches), grab most of that customer moolah and their employees get the dregs at the bottom of the barrel anyway.........but when it suits him he uses his downtrodden employees as sympathy fodder....

but you believe what you want

 

you're right dc but having been to Bangladesh a few times it is a complex issue.The garment industry has greatly assisted in the  liberation of the women of Bangladesh and has enabled them to put food on the table for their families. Like Filipinos their menfolk provide a very large proportion of foreign labour in the Gulf and South East Asia. Yes it's a horrible life but compared to poverty levels of thirty years ago it's a big improvement.

As an aside the Bangladeshi workers love a protest march. The marches are lead by drummers and the must have is an elephant !! An amazing site on the streets of Dhaka

  On 10/04/2020 at 07:35, Diamond_Jim said:

you're right dc but having been to Bangladesh a few times it is a complex issue.The garment industry has greatly assisted in the  liberation of the women of Bangladesh and has enabled them to put food on the table for their families. Like Filipinos their menfolk provide a very large proportion of foreign labour in the Gulf and South East Asia. Yes it's a horrible life but compared to poverty levels of thirty years ago it's a big improvement.

As an aside the Bangladeshi workers love a protest march. The marches are lead by drummers and the must have is an elephant !! An amazing site on the streets of Dhaka

no doubt it's very complex dj, globalisation has its good side and its bad ugly side

  On 10/04/2020 at 07:28, drysdale demon said:

I think you are being a bit on the hysterical side. Lie down for a couple of months and take in some deep breaths.

Mate, you should stop shouting down posters and offering absolutely sfa as a counterpoint. Let it go, it's tiresome

  On 10/04/2020 at 08:32, Moonshadow said:

Mate, you should stop shouting down posters and offering absolutely sfa as a counterpoint. Let it go, it's tiresome

Ignore button might work for you

  On 10/04/2020 at 07:22, daisycutter said:

Lol, that's funny mfm.

I'll bet good 'ole vijay and his partners and executives (plus all the bureaucratic leeches), grab most of that customer moolah and their employees get the dregs at the bottom of the barrel anyway.........but when it suits him he uses his downtrodden employees as sympathy fodder....

but you believe what you want

 

I see you already have. 

And a nice piece of speculative Pie,  'dc'..

  On 10/04/2020 at 07:58, daisycutter said:

globalisation has its good side and its bad ugly side

How is globalisation 's directing of all our manufacturing work to Asia,  and predominantly China,  good for us Australian workers, or Bangladeshi's.?

 I think it suits the stock market 1st, 2nd, and 3rd and 4th,  before it assists any workers in West,  or East.?

  On 10/04/2020 at 05:44, Accepting Mediocrity said:

Foolishly, I'll bite.

If analysing the number of cases through time isn't an informative way to model a health crisis, can you suggest what might be?

Call me crazy, but I'd suggest that the world's leading medical scientists might actually be somewhat clever, and have a better grasp of their models than random posters on a footy forum.

Also, you're truly delusional if you think the economic impacts were in any way avoidable. Governments don't tank economies for fun.

 

the point is - to say the number if cases we have NOW is 1200+ is incorrect. There are 480 active cases

The medical experts provide the data. Then the government and media play it how they want

  On 10/04/2020 at 13:03, DubDee said:

the point is - to say the number if cases we have NOW is 1200+ is incorrect. There are 480 active cases

The medical experts provide the data. Then the government and media play it how they want

semantics dd...... it's obvious they mean 1200 have tested +ve as of now with 480 active now. ....you're beating yourself up over nothing

  On 10/04/2020 at 10:22, drysdale demon said:

Ignore button might work for you

Both ironic and oblivious of you.

Think you'll find you're the one needing to use the ignore function, partic given you cannot articulate a counter. 

Whatever, it's boring, so try and let it go if you can.

Happy Easter.

  On 10/04/2020 at 14:00, Moonshadow said:

Both ironic and oblivious of you.

Think you'll find you're the one needing to use the ignore function, partic given you cannot articulate a counter. 

Whatever, it's boring, so try and let it go if you can.

Happy Easter.

Thanks for those kind words, if you are ever in the redlegs rooms ask Ralph and Mike to point me out and we can have a drink or two.