Goody and the Ferrari?

[Mazer Rackham 14,971]

Spotted at training. Fine tuning the gameplan of the Melbourne Ferrari in preparation for this weekend's crunch game.

[Dee tention 619]

The Ferrari is broken! 

In with the Chevy!

[Sir Why You Little 37,391]

I always liked the Porsche 917k

[layzie 34,470]

Can we get one of these bad boys to run on bath water?

[Adam The God 30,658]

11 hours ago, Macca said:

See here's the problem ... our list has been overrated by many in the media,  many here and many other fans who buy into the hype.  We are just not that good. 

We've got about 11 bona-fide good footballers on the list who can be relied on and 3 of them are injured.  Gawn,  Oliver,  Brayshaw,  Jones,  Hogan,  Lewis,  T-Mac,  Salem,  Lever,  Hibberd & Viney.  

There are another 5 or 6 on the periphery but none of them can be called 'good' footballers in actuality.   Unless we go down the path of overrating again.  Potential is just that - potential. 

The real reason why we're not far away is that there are a stack of teams who are in the same boat as what we are ... except Richmond.  So we're close by default.

In all the time I've followed the club we've never once had a great list ... and that's largely the reason why we haven't had any success in the previous decades.  You'll never win with average or above-average unless you get very lucky. 

We need an injection of 5 or 6 good footballers before we can call ourselves a top 4 team.  In the meantime we are going to be thereabouts but not great.

One of the best 1v1 players and the leading assister in the league is missing from that list in Melksham. Harmes is good enough now IMO too. 

I think you're harsh on a few others as well. Namely Neville Jetta (who has clearly been playing with an injury since the Port game), Oscar McDonald, Fritsch (despite being overrated) and you could argue Petracca also.

Your post insinuates that some of those guys on our list who are not on your list above, won't get there. Petracca, like Salem, will get there in time. However, it is a problem when one of our captains is nearing our bottom 5 or 6 players, having only just turned 30 though.

If you look at those who are probably in our bottom 5 or 6 players, we have Garlett, Tyson, Frost, ANB and Spargo. Jeffy can be a match winner on his day. Tyson can be close to one on his day too. Frost may become a half decent role player and would get a game for quite a few clubs. ANB can be an important contributor on his day. And Spargo is young (had a shocker yesterday), but will be a beauty in time.

I think you're underrating our list now. With the exception of GWS, in 2019 or 2020, we'll have the strongest list in the competition.

[Macca 17,121]

1 hour ago, A F said:

One of the best 1v1 players and the leading assister in the league is missing from that list in Melksham. Harmes is good enough now IMO too. 

I think you're harsh on a few others as well. Namely Neville Jetta (who has clearly been playing with an injury since the Port game), Oscar McDonald, Fritsch (despite being overrated) and you could argue Petracca also.

Your post insinuates that some of those guys on our list who are not on your list above, won't get there. Petracca, like Salem, will get there in time. However, it is a problem when one of our captains is nearing our bottom 5 or 6 players, having only just turned 30 though.

If you look at those who are probably in our bottom 5 or 6 players, we have Garlett, Tyson, Frost, ANB and Spargo. Jeffy can be a match winner on his day. Tyson can be close to one on his day too. Frost may become a half decent role player and would get a game for quite a few clubs. ANB can be an important contributor on his day. And Spargo is young (had a shocker yesterday), but will be a beauty in time.

I think you're underrating our list now. With the exception of GWS, in 2019 or 2020, we'll have the strongest list in the competition.

Ok ... forget my description of a 'good' player and lets call them gun players ... how many gun players have we got - 10?  More?  Less?  I stand by my figure of 11 but I'm being a little generous with 1 or 2.

And 3 of the 11 are unavailable through injury - injuries also always need to be factored in when evaluating the 'how many'. 

Speaking of which ... how many of our last 6 - 8 players picked would even get a game in the great Brisbane team of the early 2000's or the Geelong or Hawthorn premiership teams of late?  I'd say none.  Not one.  6 - 8 fringe players in the team means any hope of contending requires a huge amount of luck.  

The big chance at a flag isn't going to happen AF until we improve the list by another 5 - 6 "Gun" players.  

Because that is how good you have to be as a team to even win 1 premiership.  Forget aberration moments like the Bulldogs flag of 2016 - aberrations moments are just that - aberrations.

We are overrated pure and simple and the reason why we can't beat the good teams is simply because we are not that good.  Top players make great decisions on the ground even under extreme pressure but we've got an abundance of players who turn the ball over as a matter of course under very little pressure.  As a team we make basic fundamental errors that a top side would never make.  As for players with great vision,  we don't have a lot of them either. 

We've got an average to above average list but to be a true contender you have to be great. We've been talked up ad nauseum in the media but I refuse to buy-in to the talk unless I can see great. 

But here's the thing .... we are a team on the rise and we can get to be great.  We are just nowhere near that level right now. Right now I believe we are doing about as well as we can do given our level of talent. 

Edited August 13, 2018 by Macca

[Adam The God 30,658]

2 hours ago, Macca said:

Ok ... forget my description of a 'good' player and lets call them gun players ... how many gun players have we got - 10?  More?  Less?  I stand by my figure of 11 but I'm being a little generous with 1 or 2.

And 3 of the 11 are unavailable through injury - injuries also always need to be factored in when evaluating the 'how many'. 

Speaking of which ... how many of our last 6 - 8 players picked would even get a game in the great Brisbane team of the early 2000's or the Geelong or Hawthorn premiership teams of late?  I'd say none.  Not one.  6 - 8 fringe players in the team means any hope of contending requires a huge amount of luck.  

The big chance at a flag isn't going to happen AF until we improve the list by another 5 - 6 "Gun" players.  

Because that is how good you have to be as a team to even win 1 premiership.  Forget aberration moments like the Bulldogs flag of 2016 - aberrations moments are just that - aberrations.

We are overrated pure and simple and the reason why we can't beat the good teams is simply because we are not that good.  Top players make great decisions on the ground even under extreme pressure but we've got an abundance of players who turn the ball over as a matter of course under very little pressure.  As a team we make basic fundamental errors that a top side would never make.  As for players with great vision,  we don't have a lot of them either. 

We've got an average to above average list but to be a true contender you have to be great. We've been talked up ad nauseum in the media but I refuse to buy-in to the talk unless I can see great. 

But here's the thing .... we are a team on the rise and we can get to be great.  We are just nowhere near that level right now. Right now I believe we are doing about as well as we can do given our level of talent. 

Okay, I can get on board this sentiment further, but disagree with how many guns we need.

I'd say we have three, maybe four guns on our list at the moment. Gawn, Oliver, Lever and Viney.

In the not too distant future though, Brayshaw will sit alongside them (and arguably already does) and Hogan. That's six and the spine. Add Gaff and Hibberd to the potential of Salem and Petracca, and we'd have guns across multiple lines.

If you look at Richmond, they have four guns. Riewoldt, Martin, Cotchin and Rance. The rest are of similar ilk to Brayshaw and Hogan at this stage. They've won a flag and will probably win another one. 

I don't think our list is the problem here. Sure, Gaff will make us better and maybe one other of anything near his quality and we'll be premiership ready sooner. But I think in the meantime, it's a matter of waiting another 20-40 games and we'll be in the sweet spot.

Further, I'd argue we're not overrated, but just rated slightly earlier than where we're at. I suppose you could term that being overrated, but I think our core have shown enough to say we'll have the second best list in the league. If we can hold onto our talent and keep adding the likes of Lever and Gaff, we will be able to compete with GWS.

[Macca 17,121]

6 hours ago, A F said:

Okay, I can get on board this sentiment further, but disagree with how many guns we need.

I'd say we have three, maybe four guns on our list at the moment. Gawn, Oliver, Lever and Viney.

In the not too distant future though, Brayshaw will sit alongside them (and arguably already does) and Hogan. That's six and the spine. Add Gaff and Hibberd to the potential of Salem and Petracca, and we'd have guns across multiple lines.

If you look at Richmond, they have four guns. Riewoldt, Martin, Cotchin and Rance. The rest are of similar ilk to Brayshaw and Hogan at this stage. They've won a flag and will probably win another one. 

I don't think our list is the problem here. Sure, Gaff will make us better and maybe one other of anything near his quality and we'll be premiership ready sooner. But I think in the meantime, it's a matter of waiting another 20-40 games and we'll be in the sweet spot.

Further, I'd argue we're not overrated, but just rated slightly earlier than where we're at. I suppose you could term that being overrated, but I think our core have shown enough to say we'll have the second best list in the league. If we can hold onto our talent and keep adding the likes of Lever and Gaff, we will be able to compete with GWS.

Our list is the problem if we think we're in a position to challenge for a premiership or contend for premiership right now.  Any team that can periodically contain 6 - 8 average (or worse) players just can't be regarded as a powerhouse.  Or a future powerhouse unless those types are replaced by much better players. 

My measurement is the best of the best ... not thereabouts or maybe's.  As supporters we influence virtually nothing but of course we can all observe and pass comment.  And a lot of those comments are often based on hope,  faith,  trust,  belief systems and what we're led to believe. 

But facts are facts and if we are continuously falling short against the better sides then there is usually sound reasoning on why that keeps happening ... we can point the finger at the coaching,  game plan,  systems,  umpires,  culture, ego's or the like but it usually all boils down to talent levels AF. 

We need more good players at the club.  At least 5 or 6 more.

But despite the above I have rated our season to date as about an 8/10.  Finals were a goal obviously and they still are but if we miss out I won't see the season as a failure. The injuries that we've had generally happen to all the teams so that gets factored in.

Edited August 13, 2018 by Macca

[buck_nekkid 6,090]

1 hour ago, Macca said:

But despite the above I have rated our season to date as about an 8/10.  Finals were a goal obviously and they still are but if we miss out I won't see the season as a failure. The injuries that we've had generally happen to all the teams so that gets factored in.

I think that is a fair call, but there are many raw nerves atm, so this is what people may see in the longer term.  The year has been a radical improvement over the past, and if we win something in the next few years, this may be seen as our beach head season.  However, in the short term, it’s ‘finals or fail’ in terms of the way this side will be graded by most.

[Ted Lasso 19,583]

We can’t defend nearly well enough. We leak goals against strong teams and that’s why we can’t beat them. 

[SFebes 4,884]

8 minutes ago, Patches O’houlihan said:

We can’t defend nearly well enough. We leak goals against strong teams and that’s why we can’t beat them. 

Some of our mids lazy two way running has turned to crap again. There were moments in the GC game where I saw it happening and thought jeez I hope they don't do that v Swans.

[Macca 17,121]

32 minutes ago, buck_nekkid said:

I think that is a fair call, but there are many raw nerves atm, so this is what people may see in the longer term.  The year has been a radical improvement over the past, and if we win something in the next few years, this may be seen as our beach head season.  However, in the short term, it’s ‘finals or fail’ in terms of the way this side will be graded by most.

And the 'most' may be wrong.

Ask any Collingwood fan who their worst player was in their 2010 flag win BN.  Or Essendon of 2000.  That is the benchmark but both those powerhouse teams only won 1 flag each. No weak links.

Intersting fact is that we lost 8 gamss in 2000 and 9 games in 1988 yet many are bitter about the fact that we lost both GF's.  I have the opposite view.