I had an argument about 5 years ago with a guy I play cricket with on this subject. At the time DN had just won a Coleman, and I'd suggested at the time that Neitz was the better player. He found it hard to mount a case at the time to claim that Richo was a "better player" than Neita, but insisted that there was no way Neitz was a better forward, or Full Forward to be more specific. I argued at the time, perhaps with some futility that he was indeed the better guy to have playing out of the square.

5 years on and our arguement has continued. Just today I was looking at Bigfooty and saw a thread that was something along the lines of "Top 10 Power Forwards for 2007." Predictably most people had Fevola, Brown, Pavlich, Tredrea, Reiwoldt, Hall, Lloyd, and Gehrig up there. Some clowns tried to suggest that Lucas, Thompson, Rocca and Lynch are in the top 10, but aside from them the lists seemed to be a pretty good indicator.

Anyway, along these lines eventually a demons fan got online and claimed that no-one had backed in Neita as they should have. The Toigs fans did much the same for Richo, and once again I decided to ponder this comparison.

The two are less than 2 months apart in age, with Neitz the older (marginally).

In terms of the most important stat for a power forward (goals kicked), Richo is ahead by a bit.

Neitz has played 286 games for 602 goals. Richo has played only 234 for 690. Right off the bat you know you're going to hear Richmond fans claim that Richo's average and goals total are far superior having played two and a bit seasons' less footy than Neitz.

My position in the argument was that Neitz played up until 2000 as a defender. Richo has been a Full Forward from day one, and only kicked 88 more goals than Neita, who has won a Coleman and kicked almost as many goals in half the time playing as a stay-at-home forward.

I would suggest there are other parallels, such as the fact that both have suffered major injuries, and both play the position in a similar way, sometimes roaming out to a wing, or playing further up the ground in a limited capacity when the match demands it. It would appear that both are likely to last only up until the end of 2008, unless one decides to do a Lynch and just keep going, perhaps in a pocket.

First, here's some other stats -

Clearly Richo is a better contested mark, and probably a better uncontested mark too (DN has trampoline chest).

He is taller by 4cm, and is extremely heavy, even for a player of his size.

Richo's 2006 match-stats and averages were clearly ahead of Neitz's. He had far more marks, handballs, kicks, long kicks, inside fifties, blah blah blah. But he also had a far greater behind and error average.

Neitz was ahead of Richo in 1%ers, Frees against, tackles and, lo and behold, goals.

In the end of the day we can only compare the way they play the game, and their effect on their team's success, how they lift team-mates, intimidate opponents, and win games off their own boots, and how consistently they do all these things -

While they're a similar pace, I'm fairly certain Neitz is quicker on the lead.

Richo is probably a bit more agile, and can turn on a ten-cent piece at full pace.

Neitz is, in my opinion, a far better kick, even when shooting from outside fifty. He's certainly a better kick under pressure.

One of the things that makes him the better player is his ability to maim an opponent, or opponents without hurting himself or giving away frees. He is, as far as I can see, a breater presence physically. Although Richo is no slouch himself in this area.

Along with this is his obvious ability to lead and lift team-mates, and do it with a fair degree of consistency. He is a strong captain, as evidenced by his long tenure in the role.

Richo, while able to lead by default, has a bad habit of whingeing and dropping his head if his delivery isn't perfect. Neitz has NEVER ONCE done this in my time following him as a player. Neitz has led his team to a GF, as well as a number of finals series.

Neitz is, at least statictically, the less injury prone player. He's been playing a similar amount of time, but has played 50 more games.

I'd like to see some of the more sagely posters offer some opinions and evidence in this area, as I'm aware I may have some more to learn, particularly about the specifics of Richo's history as a player. I'd also like to see some opinions from people regarding their careers from 1992-93 up until 2000, where both guys started playing as gorilla FFs.

Over to you...

It's hard not to be biased as a dees supporter. But I think the general consenus is that Neitz is a workman type FF and that Richo is a potential gamebreaker. Dirty word " potential". The perception would be that Richo would be better because he is hyped up by the media and is more "flashy". The rest comes down to individual traits which would be difficult to measure. I'm not sure that others see Neitz as a real threat as they do Fev, Hall and Gehrig?

Interesting post.

I think at their respective peaks, Richo shaded Neitz but IMO Richo has slid considerably in the past couple of years. As a footballer Richo is probably the better athlete from a standing sprint to his ability to take a grab. However, Richo's highs have also been accompanied by periods of significant lows. Neitz has been a more even contributor over his career.

However Neitz leadership skills and presence on the field blows the trademark petulance of Richo. Richo's dodgy temperament has been a sterling contributor to a talented and athletically gifted player who has failed so often to commit and do the 1%ers.

FWIW, DD, Neitz often played forward well before 2000 and did so often since ND started but your point is fair that much of Neitz's earlier years were played back.

Its worth remembering that throughout their careers, both have played in some truly crap sides as against the Browns, Lloyds and Tredreas of this world.

As forwards, Richo may be ahead, but as footballers, Neita is miles in front.

To have won an AA as a CHB, then change his game and body completely to become a feared FF, is something Richo never could do. In fact, apart from Pavlich, no other current 'great' FF has played anywhere but up forward.

Neita is underrated because he has never won a premiership and because he plays for Melbourne. If he was in Collingwood colours, they'd call him the greatest CHB/FF player of the century

Richo is a superior player.

But I would much rather have Neitz.

Richo is a superior player.

But I would much rather have Neitz.

Richo has played in some of the most ordinary line-ups. Not an easy gig at FF altho it can be managed - just ask Fev and Plugga. Interesting to note that in the two years of finals for Richmond in Richo's career

* he missed more than half the 1995 season when the Tigers finished 3rd

* and then kicked 91 goals in 1996 but the Tigers finished 11-11 and you guessed it - 9th

* and 2001 he had a good year with 22 games, 300+ possessions and 59 goals when the Tigers finished 4th

No real correlation between Richo's performance and the Tigers ....

I think Richo and Richmond would both have been better served if he had been traded to a club with flag aspirations like Hall and Lockett were.

I think Richo and Richmond would both have been better served if he had been traded to a club with flag aspirations like Hall and Lockett were.

I understand that 5 to 6 years ago the football department wanted to but the Board did not want to raise supporter backlash and stymied the deal.

Its a fair point you raise though.

FWIW

I think Richo can be summed up by looking at performance during the season when he was sent back to play with the Tigers VFL affliate (Preston in 2004 I think).

The week before he barely got a touch for the game and the week after WON the game off his own boot.

He also polled Brownlow votes in 6 games that year; They were ALL 3 votes!!

I'm not sure that others see Neitz as a real threat as they do Fev, Hall and Gehrig?

Why don't we ask the Saint fans (or even Max Hudgeston) on Neita's ability to be a real threat. They should know it by now. But lets hope not, so Neita can kick a bag in round 1.

Neitz by the length of Flemington straight

A better footballer, and thats not even including leadership, physical presence and character

Neitz by miles!!!!!!!!To suggest otherwise is just plain stupid.

Let's not forget who Carey rated as the toughest CHB to play on him.

Neitz by the length of Flemington straight

A better footballer, and thats not even including leadership, physical presence and character

It's an interesting topic for discussion. Strangely enough I believe that both Richo and Neita never reached their full potential capacity as footballers. The reasons with Richo are pretty obvious but with David Neitz I think he was in many ways a victim of circumstances.

There was a time in the mid 90's when Neita was in his prime and probably close to the best CHB in the competition (and that was according to Wayne Carey who had some great duels with him during that time). However, injuries and the loss of other key position players at the club meant that he was taken away from the position which IMO he played the best and moved around to fill gaps around the ground. So - yes he has the record for the most games and the most goals and the longest stretch as captain - but I reckon he could have been an even better player had the likes of Schwarz, Lyon, Jakovich, Pike, Prymke etc. managed to stay healthy and at the club in the latter half of the 1990's.

Richo can do things that Neitz never could. His atheletic ability for a guy his size is amazing.

I believe both are capable of playing in different positions. Neitz obviously has been a success at CHB, and I reckon Richo could play up the ground with his engine.

But I tend to agree with Rhino Richards. At his absolute peak, Richardson perhaps just shades Neitz, but over their careers, Neitz has been a more much solid consistant performer.

I'm a fan of Richo from a distance. As a supporter, I would prefer to be barracking for Neitz rather than Richo. But I do feel for Richo at times. He has generally played is terrible teams his whole career. He has been hampered by injuries at times. Yet he is the first bloke jeered by the opposition supporters, and blamed for the teams losses by his own supporters. And then I sit back and watch him kick 9.5 and take 19 marks against Essendon in Round 21 last season [2006], and I think to myself, imagine if this bloke played in a decent team.

Imagine if Richo had been fed correctly out of the centre.

Imagine if he had been discipled and taught by coaches who had felt they would be around for a while and could weather a big colt learning the game.

Imagine if he had had another tallish quality forward to help share the load.

He then would have been Carey like imo.

Just on Carey and his "best" opponents, Im tipping he wouldnt have Neiter in his top three over his career.

He may have said it once or twice, but it was relatively early in both careers.

Richo is the better footballer in almost every area skills wise except for his shots on goal. His kicking technique is a little odd too.

Attitude is second rate, he has a sook far too often and this has a bad affect on those around him. The club has spoken at length to him about it, he was better last year but overall it should have improved a lot more.

Neitz is a much better captain and shot for goal and he also has a bit more mongrel in him than Richo. Neitz will try and hurt opponents, Richo is not quite in the same department here.

If Richo played for a team like North Melboourne, Essendon, Brisbane etc... in the 90's I reckon he would be regarded as one of the greatest full forwards of the modern era. Not too say that guys like Campbell and Knights (one of my favorite footy players) could never feed a good ball to him, it's just that everyone else around him sucked so much for such a long time it limited him getting enough of it.

Most Tigers fans I know reckon they day he crashed into the fence and stuffed his knee prevented him from becoming a real champion. We could say the same for Schwartz wrecking his knees too.

Who would I rather have? Neitz hands down. Inspiration and leadership is the most valuable asset of any player. Look at Tony Shaw, average player, couldn't kick more than 30 metres, but his ability to lead and inspire got Collingwood the cup in 1990. They could never have got it without him I reckon.

I had an argument about 5 years ago with a guy I play cricket with on this subject. At the time DN had just won a Coleman, and I'd suggested at the time that Neitz was the better player. He found it hard to mount a case at the time to claim that Richo was a "better player" than Neita, but insisted that there was no way Neitz was a better forward, or Full Forward to be more specific. I argued at the time, perhaps with some futility that he was indeed the better guy to have playing out of the square.

Richo at Richmond v. Neitz at Melbourne. Neitz easily. But then, Richmond are a talented rabble; rather like the Pakistani cricket team but not quite as amusing but close.

Descending from the hobby-horse, if Richo had been elsewhere, I would probably still pick Neitz. Too many modestly talented Demon full-backs have forced Richo onto the wings to get an inconsequential possession. A Neitz possession in a contested game hurts the opposition more.

personally, any player in the team who punches the ground because of poor delivery shouldnt be in the team. Richo really annoys me when he lets himself down when things dont go the way he wants. im sure the richmond players dont crack the sads when richo kicks the ball out of bounds as he is known to do alot. to me, he can be selfish, he has an ordinary kicking style and gives away alot of free's. call me scathing, but its a living miracle he has even kicked over 600 goals, maybe because someone at richmond has to kick the goals i guess. neita for me by a long shot, he is inspirational, richo is not. i rate that higher than anything in football.

personally, any player in the team who punches the ground because of poor delivery shouldnt be in the team. Richo really annoys me when he lets himself down when things dont go the way he wants. im sure the richmond players dont crack the sads when richo kicks the ball out of bounds as he is known to do alot. to me, he can be selfish, he has an ordinary kicking style and gives away alot of free's. call me scathing, but its a living miracle he has even kicked over 600 goals, maybe because someone at richmond has to kick the goals i guess. neita for me by a long shot, he is inspirational, richo is not. i rate that higher than anything in football.

I was feeling something, but it wasn't called inspiration, early in the first quarter of the 2000 GF. I'm hoping he gets another chance.

I had a heated debate, perhaps with TimD, sometime ago on exactly this topic backing Neita (apologies TimD if it was't you).

The arguments have been put very well here. Richo is perhaps the more talented footballer, Neita the better player.

To me the answer is pretty simple. Who would you rather captain the team you played for, and why?

Neita by the length of the straight for me. It's my opinion that David Neitz is still very undervalued by many Melbourne supporters and is almost ignored by opposition supporters.

To tap into another thread, Neitz is a champion; by my definition anyway.