48 minutes ago, Wiseblood said:

Seriously?  Honestly SWYL, I've never seen someone make such a mountain out of a mole hill.

His strategy has been rebuked?  It was a 2 day boot camp.  Have they rebelled against the 99% of the other training they do?  Have they cracked it over the gameplan?  Did they kick up a fuss about what they needed to do before they returned to training, or what they will do over the Xmas break?

No, they didn't.  They just felt the boot camp wasn't worthwhile, so it was cancelled.

I'll say it again, you LOVE this stuff.  I bet you sit there and rub your hands together at how hard you can go with it.  It's like Xmas has come early for you.

I'm with SWYL on this Wise.

Coaches are supported by a raft of professionals - Physios, Sports Doctors, Dieticians, Psychologists etc etc. I presume decisions like a boot camp are not made on some  ad hoc  basis but are part of a planned pre season regime.

The fact that the players, "just felt the boot camp wasn't worthwhile" isn't good enough for me. 

They are very well paid employees of a professional organisation. They need to suck it up and do their job.

Obviously I make this judgement without being in full possession of all the facts but, on the face of it , it is not a good look for our club.

5 hours ago, Hot as Hell said:

I disagree totally that this is a MFC issue. 

Every club has its own issues and they always have. The Cats had hand bags the Toiges ate their own etc etc. 

A training program that clearly had serious player welfare deficiencies last year has been been abandoned as a result of a lack of support from the playing group and recognition by the FD. 

The players are no less tough and the FD no less demanding. These guys all have a common goal and they know what it us. 

For outsiders including the mainstream media, social media and posters here, it is easy to focus on the decision and lose sight of the Club's resolve. 

I refuse to accept any superficial criticism of the players, the coaches or the footy dept will have any impact on our performance next year. 

In the end, it is performance that writes history. The rest is noise that so easily distracts the restless mob.

 

Yes performance writes history, and ours has been shocking for half a century. 

Players telling the coach what they will do...

(Hollywood Boulevard springs to mind)

So Melbourne. I was hoping Roosy and PJ had eradicated such thinking

Edited December 17, 20177 yr by Sir Why You Little

3 minutes ago, Bitter but optimistic said:

I'm with SWYL on this Wise.

Coaches are supported by a raft of professionals - Physios, Sports Doctors, Dieticians, Psychologists etc etc. I presume decisions like a boot camp are not made on some  ad hoc  basis but are part of a planned pre season regime.

The fact that the players, "just felt the boot camp wasn't worthwhile" isn't good enough for me. 

They are very well paid employees of a professional organisation. They need to suck it up and do their job.

Obviously I make this judgement without being in full possession of all the facts but, on the face of it , it is not a good look for our club.

Even when they themselves know that they got little benefit from the camp last year?

If we're laying the blame anywhere, then I'd lay it at the 'raft of professionals' who should know this stuff.  We got no positive reports out of the camp from last year, other than a Burgan puff piece, which suggests that the benefits were very minimal at best.

The only thing the players should learn from this, is that they should give their feedback sooner.  If they had of communicated this after the camp, then we aren't in this position.

Either way it matters little - the boot camp would have done nothing towards our win-loss ration for 2018 and, therefore, listening to the players and cancelling it is the right way to go.

1 hour ago, Wiseblood said:

Seriously?  Honestly SWYL, I've never seen someone make such a mountain out of a mole hill.

His strategy has been rebuked?  It was a 2 day boot camp.  Have they rebelled against the 99% of the other training they do?  Have they cracked it over the gameplan?  Did they kick up a fuss about what they needed to do before they returned to training, or what they will do over the Xmas break?

No, they didn't.  They just felt the boot camp wasn't worthwhile, so it was cancelled.

I'll say it again, you LOVE this stuff.  I bet you sit there and rub your hands together at how hard you can go with it.  It's like Xmas has come early for you.

You haven’t studied psychology have you...?

A boot camp tests a persons reactions when they are put under severe exterior pressure. 

Our list has no right to say anything is too hard, after the performances of Round 22-23. 

Why? Because they went to water (again) when a large opportunity beckoned. 

If Whorethon, Sydney or Jeelong baulked at a Boot Camp it wouldn’t be news for more than a day. But we the MFC have absolutely no credits in the bank. 

I don’t love this stuff, it makes me [censored] angry that players have over ruled the Senior Coach, who last time i looked was a dam solid player who played in Back to Back Flags. 

The last MFC Player to do that were in 1959-60 which is before most of us were born...

the Senior Coach is in charge last time i checked, anytime the AFLPA needs to be bought in then i consider that a problem that may fester on. 

If you don’t think its important, good for you, but don’t tell me how to percieve this very brittle club when it keeps making mistakes like this. 

 

On 16/12/2017 at 5:58 PM, Satyriconhome said:

They are entitled to an opinion, but I dont think there is much more to add, unless you like the same opinion being repeated 15 different ways

Hilarious irony!

Concerned that the players are calling the shots on this one, but don't think it's a biggie to be worried about. If Goodwin can turn this into a positive to the players it will quickly go away. His and the fd's reaction over the next 6 weeks will determine the outcome.

However, I'm certainly interested to read the views of all posters, even if I do not always agree with them.

Christmas cheer to all

Edited December 17, 20177 yr by Moonshadow

43 minutes ago, Sir Why You Little said:

You haven’t studied psychology have you...?

A boot camp tests a persons reactions when they are put under severe exterior pressure. 

Our list has no right to say anything is too hard, after the performances of Round 22-23. 

Why? Because they went to water (again) when a large opportunity beckoned. 

 

We did the boot camp last year, suffered injuries and it clearly didn't improve our mental capacity under pressure.  

It's a stupid idea and one I'm glad to see we aren't doing.

7 minutes ago, Wiseblood said:

We did the boot camp last year, suffered injuries and it clearly didn't improve our mental capacity under pressure.  

It's a stupid idea and one I'm glad to see we aren't doing.

That is not the point. 

 

 

The point is The The Senior Coach was over ruled by the players and The AFLPA, on a strategy the Senior Coach wanted to again implement  

Wagging the Dog is not a good look at all, particularly to a group of players who are yet to achieve anything.

I am not a huge fan of Boot Camp either, but it should be The Senior Coach who makes the call, if it F$&@s up it is on his head. 

He has been there and achieved BACK TO BACK Flags

1 hour ago, Wiseblood said:

Even when they themselves know that they got little benefit from the camp last year?

If we're laying the blame anywhere, then I'd lay it at the 'raft of professionals' who should know this stuff.  We got no positive reports out of the camp from last year, other than a Burgan puff piece, which suggests that the benefits were very minimal at best.

The only thing the players should learn from this, is that they should give their feedback sooner.  If they had of communicated this after the camp, then we aren't in this position.

Either way it matters little - the boot camp would have done nothing towards our win-loss ration for 2018 and, therefore, listening to the players and cancelling it is the right way to go.

Wise you played football at a reasonable level and I assume participated in these boot camp type training activities. It’s obvious that you don’t rate them and that is coming through in your answers which justifies the players behaviour. Whilst you may not rate this type of training you are avoid the issue which is the senior coach of the MFC did. 

14 minutes ago, Sir Why You Little said:

That is not the point. 

 

 

The point is The The Senior Coach was over ruled by the players and The AFLPA, on a strategy the Senior Coach wanted to again implement  

Wagging the Dog is not a good look at all, particularly to a group of players who are yet to achieve anything.

I am not a huge fan of Boot Camp either, but it should be The Senior Coach who makes the call, if it F$&@s up it is on his head. 

He has been there and achieved BACK TO BACK Flags

That doesn't mean he's always right.  In this case, he isn't.

On the flip side, I like the fact that the players want to take control of where they are headed by asking for this not to go ahead.  They want to achieve something and felt that this was not the way to do it.  They gave that feedback and it was cancelled.  Nothing sinister in it at all, and no different to most workplaces.

As I've stated earlier, this is nothing more than a one off, and had the players known about the camp in advance they would have been able to put forward their feedback earlier.

It's a non issue that's getting air time because we're a week out of Xmas and nothing else is happening.

2 minutes ago, Sir Why You Little said:

That is not the point. 

 

 

The point is The The Senior Coach was over ruled by the players and The AFLPA, on a strategy the Senior Coach wanted to again implement  

Wagging the Dog is not a good look at all, particularly to a group of players who are yet to achieve anything.

I am not a huge fan of Boot Camp either, but it should be The Senior Coach who makes the call, if it F$&@s up it is on his head. 

He has been there and achieved BACK TO BACK Flags

At the AGM the senior coach stated he listened to the players' concerns and responded to them. It is not an issue of overruling the coach or the FD. It is about a collective group determining the best strategy to achieving collective goals.

We no longer live in the 1950s 60s or 70s where the the authoritative tactics of Smithy, RDB or Hafey could go unchallenged or else. Most of us know those days are behind us for better or worse. 

This has absolutely nothing to do with winning flags. It has to do with establishing minimum performance standards, psychological and physical endurance,  character and cameraderie.

I am not saying at all that l like the modern approach or endorse it. I am simply saying player management in the 21st century is built around communication and respect of each person's role. 

This camp was not a line in the sand, a demarcation of will and won't do. It is or was part if a training program to improve the group.

36 minutes ago, Hot as Hell said:

At the AGM the senior coach stated he listened to the players' concerns and responded to them. It is not an issue of overruling the coach or the FD. It is about a collective group determining the best strategy to achieving collective goals.

We no longer live in the 1950s 60s or 70s where the the authoritative tactics of Smithy, RDB or Hafey could go unchallenged or else. Most of us know those days are behind us for better or worse. 

This has absolutely nothing to do with winning flags. It has to do with establishing minimum performance standards, psychological and physical endurance,  character and cameraderie.

I am not saying at all that l like the modern approach or endorse it. I am simply saying player management in the 21st century is built around communication and respect of each person's role. 

This camp was not a line in the sand, a demarcation of will and won't do. It is or was part if a training program to improve the group.

If Goodwin had sat down and listened to the players as you say, i doubt the AFLPA would haveen needed as a mediator but the rest of what you say I understand and i don’t altogether disagree with you, but for one point and that is that in 2016 and 2017 this same list of players (give or take) Choked at the final hurdle and missed the finals, so in my opinion they have forsaken the right to usurp the senior coach, why? Because he knows what the ultimate pressure in late September is all about. 

He was there on the MCG IN back to back years, and was a good solid player in both games

MFC players, apart from Lewis have achieved nothing. 

If the MFC choke any games in 2018 you can bet your life we will hear about it

Edited December 17, 20177 yr by Sir Why You Little

I don’t want to be all doom and gloom with outlandish statements but having been in the Military, I have seen this exact type of incidents occur. the dynamics of this current football group are ninth balanced and actions taken over the next few months will determine how they gel together. 

I find group dynamatics especially interesting. 

In the military the soldiers would rebel against ateam leader (usually an officer) usually when they felt they were doing dumb sh^t or stuffing them around. If decision were changed or events changed it create an elephant in the room regarding who actually ran the team.  A similar event would occur later and the team leader who experience the rebelling now attempting the to command at something else. The way the soldiers reacted to his directions would set scene and provide insight to this team’s future. It could mean that everyone forgets about what occurred and everything returns to normal . The most likely outcome is that there is always a later event that brings out the elephant which as lurking in the room out. And how these events are managed provides inidiciations for any problems. 

the coach will be the most aggreivated as it was his authority that was challenged. I just hope he has some good mentors around the club to enable him to lower the angry with it effect the group. maybe guys like pj or Macca may help not like  Mahoney won’t. If he still can bounce things if Roos then that would be a good outcome. Al Clarkton would be anyother people to see for some guidance 

18 minutes ago, Wiseblood said:

That doesn't mean he's always right.  In this case, he isn't.

 

Maybe not. But it aint up to the players to decide that. The senior coach is paid big dollars ? so he wears the consequences

the MFC has killed more coaches than any other club, barring The Aints. 

Not something i am proud of

The players need to win consecutive big games next year to put this issue to bed. 

How often did you tell a teacher at school part of your sylabus was crap and you refused to do it??

35 minutes ago, Hot as Hell said:

At the AGM the senior coach stated he listened to the players' concerns and responded to them. It is not an issue of overruling the coach or the FD. It is about a collective group determining the best strategy to achieving collective goals.

We no longer live in the 1950s 60s or 70s where the the authoritative tactics of Smithy, RDB or Hafey could go unchallenged or else. Most of us know those days are behind us for better or worse. 

This has absolutely nothing to do with winning flags. It has to do with establishing minimum performance standards, psychological and physical endurance,  character and cameraderie.

I am not saying at all that l like the modern approach or endorse it. I am simply saying player management in the 21st century is built around communication and respect of each person's role. 

This camp was not a line in the sand, a demarcation of will and won't do. It is or was part if a training program to improve the group.

Respectfully, what else was he possibly going to say? He sure as hell wasn't going to say he's lost the players and they now run the show (not that I'm saying this is the case). At the club agm he is always going to put calming spin on it.

Edited December 17, 20177 yr by Moonshadow

10 minutes ago, Wolfgang219 said:

 If decision were changed or events changed it create an elephant in the room regarding who actually ran the team.  A similar event would occur later and the team leader who experience the rebelling now attempting the to command at something else. The way the soldiers reacted to his directions would set scene and provide insight to this team’s future. It could mean that everyone forgets about what occurred and everything returns to normal . The most likely outcome is that there is always a later event that brings out the elephant which as lurking in the room out. 

Exactly what i am worried about, going forward Wolf

 

18 minutes ago, Sir Why You Little said:

Maybe not. But it aint up to the players to decide that. The senior coach is paid big dollars ? so he wears the consequences

the MFC has killed more coaches than any other club, barring The Aints. 

Not something i am proud of

The players need to win consecutive big games next year to put this issue to bed. 

How often did you tell a teacher at school part of your sylabus was crap and you refused to do it??

An apt analogy would only be one where the the crap part of the sylabus caused mental injuries that took weeks to recover from?

Edited December 17, 20177 yr by Doodle Dee

Just now, Doodle Dee said:

An apt analogy would be one where the sylabus caused mental injuries that took weeks to recover from?

Catholic Schools would be high on that list!!

On 16/12/2017 at 4:46 PM, Dr. Gonzo said:

This is another example of projecting neo-liberal free market ideologies onto a footy environment.

What? 

Holding of on a membership and waiting to see what transpires.

24 minutes ago, machine11 said:

Holding of on a membership and waiting to see what transpires.

Surely this one matter could not rank high in the list of factors one considers in deciding to support the football club? 

None of us like the way this was played out in public, but hopefully  we can move on and more importantly so can the club.  

I sent mine back. I told them unless at least one starting 22 player gets hit on the head with a brick by Xmas I won't be able to support such a soft club. Goodwin wrote back asking if it was OK if he got one of his mates in Adelaide to hit Jack Watts with a cricket bat.

I'm thinking it over.

Not one incident but a pattern in the club, so suddenly the players know better than the coach.... if so then obviously Jones is a weak captain. Do the supporters really have to put up with this every few years... wouldn't happen at Hawthorn  or another club.

2 hours ago, machine11 said:

Holding of on a membership and waiting to see what transpires.

Weak players and weak members?

https://www.sen.com.au/news/2017/12/17/melbourne-players-have-let-down-goodwin-says-spud/

8 minutes ago, Demonland said:

https://www.sen.com.au/news/2017/12/17/melbourne-players-have-let-down-goodwin-says-spud/

Sadly Spud ? Frawley is pretty much on the money i believe

Trust has been broken and better be fixed real quick, like today..