15 hours ago, jnrmac said:

Not sure ROE is the best way to measure progress at a footy club!

Re the leg weghts, I maintain that Aaron Davey lost a good deal of pace when he bulked up his legs. Was never as fast as he was in his first rookie year.

Was a bit tongue-in-cheek Jnr!

Interesting with Davey. Always thought those major hamstring injuries in his second year impacted his lightening speed. Could be related.

22 hours ago, dee-tox said:

Not sure I agree Skuit with Spencer. Ten years on a list for 30-odd games. Paid probably 3 million bucks for those games. Pretty poor return on equity! 

 

That's stone-cold dee-tox. You sound like you work in the financial sector.

12 minutes ago, Skuit said:

That's stone-cold dee-tox. You sound like you work in the financial sector.

Hey baby look at your favourite players !

The thing that frustrates me the most about Trengove's situation, is that his foot injury was clearly mismanaged from the outset.

The year leading up to it being diagnosed, he noticably slowed down and if you actually went back through the Demonland archives, there was a lot of chat that he had to be carrying a foot or similar injury, but he slugged through most of the season which surely can't have been good. And when you are a 21-22 year old captain, perhaps there was added pressure to stay on the park.

Edited September 13, 20178 yr by Forest Demon

3 hours ago, Forest Demon said:

The thing that frustrates me the most about Trengove's situation, is that his foot injury was clearly mismanaged from the outset.

The year leading up to it being diagnosed, he noticably slowed down and if you actually went back through the Demonland archives, there was a lot of chat that he had to be carrying a foot or similar injury, but he slugged through most of the season which surely can't have been good. And when you are a 21-22 year old captain, perhaps there was added pressure to stay on the park.

Exactly. Jack should have put the hand up earlier and said "no more"

Too late now

On 9/13/2017 at 9:37 AM, poita said:

Hard to argue with any of those decisions. I am hoping there are another 3-4 to come, hopefully starting with Kennedy, McKenna and Vandenberg. Otherwise we are going to reach the end of next season needing to delist about ten players.

 

Not sure how one can pass judgement on a kid who didn't get on the park for our Senior, VFL or VFL reserves team due to injuryin his first year at the club.

 

Lets maybe see what he can do first?

On 9/13/2017 at 10:27 AM, Deespicable said:

Clearly, along with our Weid choice, Taylor made a misjudgement of where bigs were going in the game - he's not the only recruiting officer to have erred on that one and his meal ticket still lives on his No.4 pick of 2015.

 

Think you'll find that happened just before Taylor came on board.  Todd Viney was in charge of recruiting then, and some stories suggest Neeld pulled rank on Todd in order to take Toumpas over Wines.  Not sure if that's the truth or not however.

No real surprises although I agree with others we will never know how good Jack could have been.

5 hours ago, MadAsHell said:

Think you'll find that happened just before Taylor came on board.  Todd Viney was in charge of recruiting then, and some stories suggest Neeld pulled rank on Todd in order to take Toumpas over Wines.  Not sure if that's the truth or not however.

The opposite is possibly true as Neeld was quoted early in 2013 as saying he wanted grunt and 'they' went the other way.  He said as much at a press conference.  I'm by no means wanting to pump up Neeld's tyres,  I just distinctly remember him saying it.

And I'd be surprised if Taylor wasn't at least consulted on the Toumpas pick.  Ok, he wasn't 'officially' with us but when we consider how much we valued him (Taylor),  due diligence alone would have prompted a quick phone call to at least get his opinion.

 

Edited September 15, 20178 yr by Macca

1 hour ago, Macca said:

That's the convenient story TD

The opposite is probably true as Neeld was quoted early in 2013 as saying he wanted grunt and 'they' went the other way.  He said as much at a press conference as I recall.  I'm by no means wanting to pump up Neeld's tyres,  just trying to keep it real.

And I'd be surprised if Taylor wasn't at least consulted on the Toumpas pick. 

The fact is that Toumpas is just part of a enormous list of star juniors who haven't cut it in the big time.  We're not the only club that has drawn the short straw either.  It happens, and it happens a lot.  The facts bear that out.

 

Most rated Toumpas highly. Unfortunately he came to a club with poor development programs and coaches. Its mathematically impossible to draft so many top draft picks and fukk them all up without the help of our clubs 'development'

1 minute ago, Demons1858 said:

Most rated Toumpas highly. Unfortunately he came to a club with poor development programs and coaches. Its mathematically impossible to draft so many top draft picks and fukk them all up without the help of our clubs 'development'

I disagree ... I actually believe it's mathematically possible to pick a whole host of players who don't make the grade.  And we did it.

You want a bit of proof - go here.  But there again, my faith in drafting extends to having a modicum of faith only - which is quickly dismissed once reality sets in. 

Toumpas was never going to make it ... same goes for Morton and numerous others.  Too much is staked on development too.  For instance, Toumpas only had half a year with Neeld, another few months with Craig and then 2 full years with Roos.

Gun players nearly always get there on their own.  Coaching & development adds maybe 10% - 15% to a players value.  There is no possible way of turning a D grade player into an A grader.

Nearly every top end pick who ended up a bust was a gun junior.  That's right across the board with every club.  The only explanation that can give anyone any real closure is that we pick these draftees when they're too young.  That will almost certainly never change by the way so we should just learn to live with it and come to terms with it all.  I have.

If Brayshaw & Weideman don't make it then there's another 2 to add to the list. 

 

 

 

 

Macca..I reckon the good'uns get there anyways...as you suggest. Others need mentoring for the change from kiddy footy to man footy.

we had picking babies down to a fine art eh !!

47 minutes ago, beelzebub said:

Macca..I reckon the good'uns get there anyways...as you suggest. Others need mentoring for the change from kiddy footy to man footy.

we had picking babies down to a fine art eh !!

I'm a great believer that when results are poor we should always look at the systems that these poor results stem from.  Cause & effect.

But it's footy/sport bub - we have faith,  hope,  trust,  belief systems & dreams.  And I'm a grinch. haha

Edited September 15, 20178 yr by Macca

 

1 hour ago, Macca said:

I disagree ... I actually believe it's mathematically possible to pick a whole host of players who don't make the grade.  And we did it.

You want a bit of proof - go here. 

Your sample is limited to top5 picks and whether they reach elite standard. Thats not a representative sample. A true refection of our drafting looks at all top 20 picks (1st round) and how many are handy starting 22 types and how many are elite. Paints a very different picture. In 2007, 8, 9, 10 around 50% of top 20 picks are handy types yet we have only Watts after 9 picks and none are elite or close. Our development was shot like alot of our club back then l'm affraid

Edited September 15, 20178 yr by Demons1858

3 minutes ago, Demons1858 said:

 

Your sample is limited to top5 picks and whether they reach elite standard. Thats not a representative sample. A true refection of our drafting looks at all top 20 picks (1st round) and how many are handy starting 22 types and how many are elite. Paints a very different picture. In 2007, 8, 9, 10 around 50% of top 20 picks are handy types yet we have only Watts after 9 picks and none are elite or close. Our development was shot like alot of our club back then l'm affraid

It's possible that we're both right (or at least partly right)

I've had numerous discussions about the subject matter and it often ends up in parallel arguments.   I'd normally defer to the 'agree to disagree bit' but it's a complex debate.

You make decent points and I believe I do too.