3 hours ago, WERRIDEE said:

Watts won't be the difference between winning or losing a premiership. He's clearly a poor trainer. Pressure wins premierships, and Watts has never been good at pressure acts. That's how an ordinary side like Richmond won it. Pressure, pressure, pressure that's what it's all about and Watts doesn't do it.  

See, I don't mind people saying they're right to get rid of Watts. But when you just make stuff up ...

He's not "clearly" a poor trainer.

Watts is one of our best for pressure acts - he's 5th or 6th on the list. He's not good at tackling but averages 2.6 tackles a game, which is very good in comparison to those who play a similar type of game. But he was never on the list to be a tackling machine - we've got others who can do that. Just like we never drafted Viney for his elite foot skills - we have (or had) other players for that. 

He's not a good pack mark, but we didn't get him for that either. His best marks are on the leads. A number of forwards have made great cares abut getting most of their goals on leads - Peter McKenna & Bernie Quinlan come to mind. But they had teammates who could hit them lace out. Jack's had teammates who pass it to him from 30m and miss him by 5m in any direction.

No one player is "the difference" between winning or losing a premiership. If today shows us anything, is that premierships are won by great teams, not individuals. But Watts could certainly make a worthwhile contribution, if his team (it won't be us any more) ever used him right. 

14 minutes ago, Akum said:

See, I don't mind people saying they're right to get rid of Watts. But when you just make stuff up ...

He's not "clearly" a poor trainer.

Watts is one of our best for pressure acts - he's 5th or 6th on the list. He's not good at tackling but averages 2.6 tackles a game, which is very good in comparison to those who play a similar type of game. But he was never on the list to be a tackling machine - we've got others who can do that. Just like we never drafted Viney for his elite foot skills - we have (or had) other players for that. 

He's not a good pack mark, but we didn't get him for that either. His best marks are on the leads. A number of forwards have made great cares abut getting most of their goals on leads - Peter McKenna & Bernie Quinlan come to mind. But they had teammates who could hit them lace out. Jack's had teammates who pass it to him from 30m and miss him by 5m in any direction.

No one player is "the difference" between winning or losing a premiership. If today shows us anything, is that premierships are won by great teams, not individuals. But Watts could certainly make a worthwhile contribution, if his team (it won't be us any more) ever used him right. 

Fair points however McKenna and Quinlan were playing in an era where there was more space for them to lead into. Today's football is so congested that the space is almost non-existent and a contented mark or at least a contest is mandatory.

Melbourne needs players who are hungry and relentlessly attack the ball. We showed patches throughout the season and won games. Unfortunately for Jack, he doesn't have the attack mode required. Today's game showed there are no space for passengers or for players who won't put their bodies on the line for the greater good. 

3 hours ago, mo64 said:

Watts was dropped because of his lack of intensity when flying for contested marks. He'd do everything to avoid contact. Weid was brought in, and even though he did sweet FA, Goodwin applauded his attack on the ball when in the air. 

You're right about one thing - if we're going to continue to be predictable and attack by bombing it onto our tall forwards heads and expecting them to contest it against 2 or 3 opponents, then we don't need Watts. We probably don't need Hogan either - he's one of the best contested marks in the comp one-on-one, but against 2 or 3 opponents he's as useless as anyone else. We'd be better to train a 210cm athletic gorilla and get him to stand 30m out from goal. 

14 minutes ago, Akum said:

You're right about one thing - if we're going to continue to be predictable and attack by bombing it onto our tall forwards heads and expecting them to contest it against 2 or 3 opponents, then we don't need Watts. We probably don't need Hogan either - he's one of the best contested marks in the comp one-on-one, but against 2 or 3 opponents he's as useless as anyone else. We'd be better to train a 210cm athletic gorilla and get him to stand 30m out from goal. 

mason cox signed up at the pies...

3 hours ago, brendan said:

Watts will never get us to a flag, he showed up last year not in the right shape after 9 years of being in the system, what does that tell you? Personally I have had a gut full of us showing up when we feel like it, if the club are making a statement then so be it finals next year are non negotiable if the tigers can win a flag no reason we can’t as soon as next year with the right attitude, if watts ends up staying at least he has got the rocket he needed 

Again, if Watts was given the option to stay, no matter how much of a "rocket" he got, he would not be talking to other clubs.

So we won't have Watts ned year, but we will have Goody. You guys are making Goody sound like Neeld - the type of coach who loves to tear his players down, not to boost them up. Because you're applauding that he's torn Watts down.

Some of us aren't so convinced that that's the way to get the best performances out of a group of young men.

2 hours ago, Unleash Hell said:

Camdon Macintosh and Dylan Grimes are now premiership players..... makes as much sense as the statement above

Just proves opinions are like assholes... at the end of the day who gives a flying

 

So there's no problem here? We've cut out the cancer and now we'll be much better off without Watts undermining everything and contributing nothing to the team?

I don't care that Watts is gone. I just hope our coaches aren't as blind to what we've lost - and more importantly, by what we'll need to replace - by dumping Watts, as a lot of posters are. What I've seen and heard so far from them doesn't fill me with confidence.

2 hours ago, PaulRB said:

Touchy... there can be more than one reason. Jack being in and out of the team ( and now likely to be traded) as he has been, means his selection is not as automatic as you seem to think...

 

2 hours ago, Ron Burgundy said:

Yep, we didn't want to play finals. That's why we played a dude not in our best 22 in the most important game of the year.

We were clearly looking at the bigger picture - maximising the trade value of one bloke on our list, not fielding our best side.

??

 

Is that Simon Goodwin holding the gun at his head? OR does the head represent the MFC?   Didn't want to play finals? What absolute rubbish.

3 hours ago, WERRIDEE said:

Johnstone was useless at Brisbane and Woewodin was useless at Collingwood. Powell to St.Kilda and Jolly to Sydney hurt us.

Watts is barely in  our best 22 and your acting like he is a star.

Would u have said Watts wax barely in our best 22 the week he did his hamstring? Of course not. He had played about 15 weeks of decent footy including pinch hitting in the ruck. He  had kicked a number of goals no-one on the list could have kicked.

This is what pisses me off. Several players were brought back this year, too early after injury. Watts, Viney, Salem spring to mind. Watts was plainly worried about the hammy v Crows and then played poorly twice. He was ok in the last match.

who or what replaces a clean  long kicking forward who, if he gets a dozen disposals, makes a contribution.

i don't know why he wasn't fit at the start of the season. This was v poor, I agree. But he would have learned from this. I think we are making a poor decision. If he decided to stay I'd be delighted

2 hours ago, mo64 said:

Of course Watts brings something, but unfortunately it's not at a consistent level to outweigh his deficiencies. Personally, I don't think that Watts is essential to our forward line structure. I'd play Hogan, T Mac and Petracca plus 3 mids/smalls.

In answer to your final statement, we'll never know. Because if we improve, it won't be because Watts has been traded. And if we stagnate or regress, it won't be because Watts has been traded.

All I want is 22 players of AFL standard who display hardness at the contest when it's their turn to go. After 9 seasons, Jack Watts can't be trusted to provide that consistently.

Well, the problem is that what Watts brought to the team is what we're worst at, our deficiencies: better disposal, better decision-making, better ball movement, better entries i50, less turnovers and so on. These are the areas we need to improve in most, and Watts, who was our best player in these areas, is now gone.

It's OK if you think his deficiencies outweighed his benefits. There are a range of opinions about this - it's impossible to tell at this stage which is right, but they'e all legitimate.

But if the coaches are blind to what he brought, and don't take steps to improve in those areas - if all they think we need to do is improve our intensity and we don't have to worry about our skills - we aren't going to get better.

Watts is now no longer one of our players. I'm more concerned about us getting better. It concerns me, for example, that some of our core players that we rely upon most haven't improved their disposal for 2 or 3 years. If they don't improve again over this preseason, there's a risk we could get even worse. 

Pro-Watts or anti-Watts is no longer the point - it stopped being the point about 2 weeks ago. The point from now on is: how are we going to get better (post-Watts)? 

On 06/09/2017 at 6:57 AM, Clint Bizkit said:

Remember how he couldn't get a game in the pre-season?

There was a reason.

If so mate, how did he play in Round one. Bloody well from memory

3 hours ago, FireInTheBelly said:

Honest question, why would you pick a bloke to play in round 23 if 2 weeks later you're going to tell him he's no longer required?

 

Managing to get picked each week is a pretty low bar for a guy in his 9th season.

Goodwin needs to keep his mouth shut.

We'll be lucky to get a fourth round pick for Watts the way he is talking about him.

Just now, Clint Bizkit said:

Goodwin needs to keep his mouth shut.

We'll be lucky to get a fourth round pick for Watts the way he is talking about him.

Goodwin has been talking Jack down all year, starting in the pre season and it never ended.  So, Watts' value started depreciating a long time ago. 

I get the feeling moving Jack on is more important to him than the trade we get back.

The best chance of a decent return is if he goes to a club that plays fair at the trade table.

3 minutes ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

Goodwin has been talking Jack down all year, starting in the pre season and it never ended.  So, Watts' value started depreciating a long time ago. 

I get the feeling moving Jack on is more important to him than the trade we get back.

The best chance of a decent return is if he goes to a club that plays fair at the trade table.

Yep, that's exactly right. The Watts defenders are coming out of the closet to tell us he has skills but this whole thing has nothing to do with skills. He's toxic to our culture going forward. Goodwin and Jones have said as much this year. Nothing to do with his skills that we all know he has. It's his application, desire, want, hunger, bravery, team standards, preparation & professionalism that's the issue. After 9 years, he still doesn't get it and by the look of some posts on this thread, never do his fans. He wouldn't last 5 minutes at the Swans and wouldn't choose there as he knows he won't play in a premiership side. He'll end up at a soft front running club like Port. 

2 minutes ago, SFebey said:

Yep, that's exactly right. The Watts defenders are coming out of the closet to tell us he has skills but this whole thing has nothing to do with skills. He's toxic to our culture going forward. Goodwin and Jones have said as much this year. Nothing to do with his skills that we all know he has. It's his application, desire, want, hunger, bravery, team standards, preparation & professionalism that's the issue. After 9 years, he still doesn't get it and by the look of some posts on this thread, never do his fans. He wouldn't last 5 minutes at the Swans and wouldn't choose there as he knows he won't play in a premiership side. He'll end up at a soft front running club like Port. 

SF, you have made that same comment over and over and over again in this and various other threads.  It is getting tiresome.  Can you please find a new tune to play.

And btw, I am one of those Watts defenders!!  But I haven't come out of the closet - proudly a supporter since the beginning.

But sadly, I can see the writing on the wall and no amount of wishing otherwise nor banging my head against said wall will keep him a Demon.  Like 'Akum', 'Jumbo Returns' and a few other stalwart Watts' fans on here, I have finally accepted he is gone.  It will take some time to get used to and I will be in mourning for a while. 

I hear what you say about him but I don't like seeing Dee fans relentlessly tear down our players.  They wear our colours and I love them for it. I take little joy from an exceptionally sad outcome for all involved.  

I genuinely wish him every success at his new club.

Bye Jack

I hope he fkn thrives and murders us

7 minutes ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

SF, you have made that same comment over and over and over again in this and various other threads.  It is getting tiresome.  Can you please find a new tune to play.

And btw, I am one of those Watts defenders!!  But I haven't come out of the closet - proudly a supporter since the beginning.

But sadly, I can see the writing on the wall and no amount of wishing otherwise nor banging my head against said wall will keep him a Demon.  Like 'Akum', 'Jumbo Returns' and a few other stalwart Watts' fans on here, I have finally accepted he is gone.  It will take some time to get used to and I will be in mourning for a while. 

I hear what you say about him but I don't like seeing Dee fans relentlessly tear down our players.  They wear our colours and I love them for it. I take little joy from an exceptionally sad outcome for all involved.  

I genuinely wish him every success at his new club.

Bye Jack

No I won't change because the same posters are doing the same thing over and over with the opposite opinion. It's not rocket science, it's absolutely astonishing that people can't see the Forrest for the trees. 

Also that was the first time I mentioned "Watts defenders are coming out of the closet" - if you don't like my posts just block and move on, no sleep lost here. I usually enjoy your posts.

he should've been traded years ago. And as I have said, he's a great bloke with good skills and I wish him well but I'm sick of [censored] around and want to win flags, not play me nice guy to a pea heart.

3 minutes ago, SFebey said:

No I won't change because the same posters are doing the same thing over and over with the opposite opinion. It's not rocket science, it's absolutely astonishing that people can't see the Forrest for the trees. 

Also that was the first time I mentioned "Watts defenders are coming out of the closet" - if you don't like my posts just block and move on, no sleep lost here. I usually enjoy your posts.

You need to toughen up, Febes

Just now, jumbo returns said:

You need to toughen up, Febes

so do you jumbo

Just now, jumbo returns said:

You need to toughen up, Febes

No Jumbo, I have and it's time the club did too and stop being a slave to the weak supporters.

Just now, DavidNeitz9 said:

so do you jumbo

Hard as nails, Neita

Love the contest

Just now, SFebey said:

No Jumbo, I have and it's time the club did too and stop being a slave to the weak supporters.

I don't think he's the only problem with our list

Trading (traded) JW will not solve our problems

8 minutes ago, jumbo returns said:

I hope he fkn thrives and murders us

you don't mean that Jumbo

Just now, DavidNeitz9 said:

you don't mean that Jumbo

He'll probably get 3 Brownlow votes against us lol

2 minutes ago, jumbo returns said:

I don't think he's the only problem with our list

Trading (traded) JW will not solve our problems

I don't think he's the only problem either. But there's more to the Watts story than just his skills. It's all about culture now, players not buying in to team rules will be gone, no matter how "nice" they are.