As an atheist, I find all religion to be potentially harmful, conservative/regressive and downright fanciful. 

But I believe if you're not hurting anyone else, you do what you want. Consenting adults etc.

It's when religious people or non religious people try to convert others or impose their views on others, that I draw a line in the sand. 

My uncle married a Singaporean woman almost twenty years ago and took the Muslim faith in order to be married. Much like in the Jewish faith. He's exactly the same as my very few Christian friends. He'd call himself a Muslim, but that's about it. But some on here would persecute him and ban him from a country, just because of his faith. It's ridiculous. 

If this was a debate about the small percentage of Muslims practising extremism, then fine. But it's become a societal dialogue that judges the entirety of the Muslim faith with one brush, yet the Left is accused of putting people in boxes? Get your hands off it.

What annoys me even more is that Christianity, with all its dark and regressive fundamentalism, continues unabated in politics. Particularly, American politics. These pro-life, homophobic, anti-Muslim politicians are basing their backward views on their interpretations of their own book. They are then imposing their views on society by legislating based on these ideologies. So a woman in Texas, for example, is told what she can and can't do when she gets pregnant, based on some clown who reads a book everyday and choses to base his life around these 'teachings'.

You can't tell me the Trump administration isn't imposing its rulings on the country, based on religious ideologies. And you also can't tell me Tony Abbott wasn't ruling our country through a Christian ideology that left behind all else. The $90 million Chaplaincy Program? Are you serious? Get religion out of politics and we'll all be better off. 

As for Trump, the next month is going to be fascinating. Kellyanne Conway is clearly on the outer at the moment. While the Russian stuff isn't going to go away. I wonder whether that loony Bannon will get to start World War 3, before they get kicked out of office too. Let's hope not.

And any Australian saying this administration isn't a danger to us in the South China Sea is blinkered. With US military forces already stationed in our country, we are decidedly vulnerable if a war breaks out. How anyone would want the Americans stirring the pot and playing Russian roulette with the Chinese is beyond me. Our two biggest trade partners going to war in our backyard is not a good thing. 

  On 16/02/2017 at 12:38, A F said:

As an atheist, I find all religion to be potentially harmful, conservative/regressive and downright fanciful. 

But I believe if you're not hurting anyone else, you do what you want. Consenting adults etc.

It's when religious people or non religious people try to convert others or impose their views on others, that I draw a line in the sand. 

My uncle married a Singaporean woman almost twenty years ago and took the Muslim faith in order to be married. Much like in the Jewish faith. He's exactly the same as my very few Christian friends. He'd call himself a Muslim, but that's about it. But some on here would persecute him and ban him from a country, just because of his faith. It's ridiculous. 

If this was a debate about the small percentage of Muslims practising extremism, then fine. But it's become a societal dialogue that judges the entirety of the Muslim faith with one brush, yet the Left is accused of putting people in boxes? Get your hands off it.

What annoys me even more is that Christianity, with all its dark and regressive fundamentalism, continues unabated in politics. Particularly, American politics. These pro-life, homophobic, anti-Muslim politicians are basing their backward views on their interpretations of their own book. They are then imposing their views on society by legislating based on these ideologies. So a woman in Texas, for example, is told what she can and can't do when she gets pregnant, based on some clown who reads a book everyday and choses to base his life around these 'teachings'.

You can't tell me the Trump administration isn't imposing its rulings on the country, based on religious ideologies. And you also can't tell me Tony Abbott wasn't ruling our country through a Christian ideology that left behind all else. The $90 million Chaplaincy Program? Are you serious? Get religion out of politics and we'll all be better off. 

As for Trump, the next month is going to be fascinating. Kellyanne Conway is clearly on the outer at the moment. While the Russian stuff isn't going to go away. I wonder whether that loony Bannon will get to start World War 3, before they get kicked out of office too. Let's hope not.

And any Australian saying this administration isn't a danger to us in the South China Sea is blinkered. With US military forces already stationed in our country, we are decidedly vulnerable if a war breaks out. How anyone would want the Americans stirring the pot and playing Russian roulette with the Chinese is beyond me. Our two biggest trade partners going to war in our backyard is not a good thing. 

Navel- gazing speculation on western evils.You been trained to disrupt your own culture and take a rosy view of others.

No freedom for a woman in Texas? You've never been there.

Take the little lady to Mecca for a dirty weekend and see how you go.

Rome might be a better option though,if you really thought about it .

Did you know there are millions of slaves in China?

If you wrote something critical of the govt in China you would be finished.

Why [censored] a dead horse with your criticism of Western values- nobody cares.

 We are absolutely awesome.Enjoy it while you can you bleating ,vegan whiny invertebrate.

  On 16/02/2017 at 12:58, Biffen said:

Navel- gazing speculation on western evils.You been trained to disrupt your own culture and take a rosy view of others.

No freedom for a woman in Texas? You've never been there.

Take the little lady to Mecca for a dirty weekend and see how you go.

Rome might be a better option though,if you really thought about it .

Did you know there are millions of slaves in China?

If you wrote something critical of the govt in China you would be finished.

Why [censored] a dead horse with your criticism of Western values- nobody cares.

 We are absolutely awesome.Enjoy it while you can you bleating ,vegan whiny invertebrate.

I went to Texas last month, you silly boy.

And I'm a 6 foot 6, 102kg meat eating sport-loving filmmaker. Damn. You can't put me in a box. As much as you'd like to.

And yes, we are going to Rome on our honeymoon.

Finally, you dodged the majority of my last post, Biffboy. It has nothing to do with Western values. It has everything to do with Christianity and religion in general encroaching on my rights or others'. You've said you don't particularly care for Christianity and yet you constantly defend it. Don't confuse Western values for Christian values. I'm not a Christian and I know full well how to treat someone properly without having to read and interpret some book. 

Western values are acceptance and the ability to be who you want to be. Western values aren't god-fearing. Western values aren't homophobic. Western values aren't racist. Western values aren't sexist. Western values aren't even inherently anti-Muslim. 

I love my country and I know how lucky I am to live in it, but that doesn't mean I can't take umbrage with aspects of it. That is the beauty of our great democracy.

Edited February 16, 20178 yr by A F

Finally some sense from you.

We are the same size but you probably have a decade or so on me.

The only sensible way to resolve our differences is a fist fight but you will have to tie one hand behind your back as you are younger and everything has to be " fair" right?

Have a lovely time in Rome.

Compare and contrast the life and freedoms there with Pakistan or Saudi Arabia.

The church is a nice bit of theatre there and nothing more to most.

I agree all religion is retarded.

  On 16/02/2017 at 12:38, A F said:

As an atheist, I find all religion to be potentially harmful, conservative/regressive and downright fanciful. 

But I believe if you're not hurting anyone else, you do what you want. Consenting adults etc.

It's when religious people or non religious people try to convert others or impose their views on others, that I draw a line in the sand. 

My uncle married a Singaporean woman almost twenty years ago and took the Muslim faith in order to be married. Much like in the Jewish faith. He's exactly the same as my very few Christian friends. He'd call himself a Muslim, but that's about it. But some on here would persecute him and ban him from a country, just because of his faith. It's ridiculous. 

If this was a debate about the small percentage of Muslims practising extremism, then fine. But it's become a societal dialogue that judges the entirety of the Muslim faith with one brush, yet the Left is accused of putting people in boxes? Get your hands off it.

What annoys me even more is that Christianity, with all its dark and regressive fundamentalism, continues unabated in politics. Particularly, American politics. These pro-life, homophobic, anti-Muslim politicians are basing their backward views on their interpretations of their own book. They are then imposing their views on society by legislating based on these ideologies. So a woman in Texas, for example, is told what she can and can't do when she gets pregnant, based on some clown who reads a book everyday and choses to base his life around these 'teachings'.

You can't tell me the Trump administration isn't imposing its rulings on the country, based on religious ideologies. And you also can't tell me Tony Abbott wasn't ruling our country through a Christian ideology that left behind all else. The $90 million Chaplaincy Program? Are you serious? Get religion out of politics and we'll all be better off. 

As for Trump, the next month is going to be fascinating. Kellyanne Conway is clearly on the outer at the moment. While the Russian stuff isn't going to go away. I wonder whether that loony Bannon will get to start World War 3, before they get kicked out of office too. Let's hope not.

And any Australian saying this administration isn't a danger to us in the South China Sea is blinkered. With US military forces already stationed in our country, we are decidedly vulnerable if a war breaks out. How anyone would want the Americans stirring the pot and playing Russian roulette with the Chinese is beyond me. Our two biggest trade partners going to war in our backyard is not a good thing. 

So Christianity "annoys you more" than a political ideology that subjugates women and gays and wants to dominate the world ?  A barbaric theology that abhors freedom and wants the extermination of every living Jew.  A religion that allows wife beating and rape, as long as you marry the woman afterwards.  A religion that allows sex with a goat, as long as you kill it afterwards.  But the left is more annoyed by Christianity, which is the bedrock of the civilised western world and indeed framed the values of your own country.  

That's leftism for you in a nutshell.  It's a sickness.

Btw, if you ever take the time to research polls in the Muslim world you'll be frightened to know that this tiny percentage of radicals is far from tiny.  Over half of the middle east supports death to apostates, etc.  It's a myth that only a small percentage of Muslims are fundamentalists.  

Islam is Islam.  And it's radical.  Thankfully, most westernised Muslims are not, but why any civilised country would want to import people on mass from these backwater shitholes is beyond me.  The Saudis don't want them, yet unsurprisingly no-one from the left is critical.

 

Edited February 16, 20178 yr by ProDee

  On 16/02/2017 at 21:28, ProDee said:

So Christianity "annoys you more" than a political ideology that subjugates women and gays and wants to dominate the world ?  A barbaric theology that abhors freedom and wants the extermination of every living Jew.  A religion that allows wife beating and rape, as long as you marry the woman afterwards.  A religion that allows sex with a goat, as long as you kill it afterwards.  But the left is more annoyed by Christianity, which is the bedrock of the civilised western world and indeed framed the values of your own country.  

That's leftism for you in a nutshell.  It's a sickness.

Btw, if you ever take the time to research polls in the Muslim world you'll be frightened to know that this tiny percentage of radicals is far from tiny.  Over half of the middle east supports death to apostates, etc.  It's a myth that only a small percentage of Muslims are fundamentalists.  

Islam is Islam.  And it's radical.  Thankfully, most westernised Muslims are not, but why any civilised country would want to import people on mass from these backwater shitholes is beyond me.  The Saudis don't want them, yet unsurprisingly no-one from the left is critical.

 

I know where you sit on Christianity. "The bedrock of Western civilisation" etc. You're radicalised. Christianity has made women and homosexuals second class citizens for centuries. It's a dated patriarchial system written by men to control women and the rest of society. Look at the ridiculous construct of marriage.

And don't tell me my society needs Christianity to know how to treat one and other. It's a laughable argument to say Christianity frames my Western values or that of my country. Historically, the British that came here were god-fearing (and committed atrocities in the name of Christianity), but we've moved on and the majority of White Australia doesn't need religion anymore. 

My grandfather was a Christian preacher and my grandmother still attends church, but only because it offers her a sense of community in her 90s. My parents who met at church are both agnostic or probably atheist and didn't force my sister or I to go to church. The only reason Christianity continues for the most part in the Western world, is because it is inherented.

And calling opposing views to yours a sickness shows just how desperate you've become to cling to your regressive, outdated ways.

Edited February 16, 20178 yr by A F

  On 16/02/2017 at 22:56, A F said:

I know where you sit on Christianity. "The bedrock of Western civilisation" etc. You're radicalised. Christianity has made women and homosexuals second class citizens for centuries. It's a dated patriarchial system written by men to control women and the rest of society. Look at the ridiculous construct of marriage.

And don't tell me my society needs Christianity to know how to treat one and other. It's a laughable argument to say Christianity frames my Western values or that of my country. Historically, the British that came here were god-fearing (and committed atrocities in the name of Christianity), but we've moved on and the majority of White Australia doesn't need religion anymore. 

My grandfather was a Christian preacher and my grandmother still attends church, but only because it offers her a sense of community in her 90s. My parents who met at church are both agnostic or probably atheist and didn't force my sister or I to go to church. The only reason Christianity continues for the most part in the Western world, is because it is inherented.

And calling opposing views to yours a sickness shows just how desperate you've become to cling to your regressive, outdated ways.

Tell me, how are Gays and Women treated in muslim countries?

In Christian Countries Women are allowed to leave the house without permission and an escort, they are allowed to work, they are allowed an education, they are allowed to drive a car, they are allowed to have sex outside marriage, they don't get stoned or imprisoned if they are raped, no genital mutilation, no forced marriages, which religion is the better one for women?

In Christian Countries, gays are free to go about their business and in some they are allowed to get married, if not they are free to live together and live the life of a couple, which religion is better for Gays?

  On 16/02/2017 at 23:19, Dante said:

Tell me, how are Gays and Women treated in muslim countries?

In Christian Countries Women are allowed to leave the house without permission and an escort, they are allowed to work, they are allowed an education, they are allowed to drive a car, they are allowed to have sex outside marriage, they don't get stoned or imprisoned if they are raped, no genital mutilation, no forced marriages, which religion is the better one for women?

In Christian Countries, gays are free to go about their business and in some they are allowed to get married, if not they are free to live together and live the life of a couple, which religion is better for Gays?

Careful Dante, AF will accuse you of "liking paedophiles".

I must agree with you that Christianity is harmless compared to the brutality of islam.

 

 

  On 16/02/2017 at 22:56, A F said:

I know where you sit on Christianity. "The bedrock of Western civilisation" etc. You're radicalised. Christianity has made women and homosexuals second class citizens for centuries. It's a dated patriarchial system written by men to control women and the rest of society. Look at the ridiculous construct of marriage.

And don't tell me my society needs Christianity to know how to treat one and other. It's a laughable argument to say Christianity frames my Western values or that of my country. Historically, the British that came here were god-fearing (and committed atrocities in the name of Christianity), but we've moved on and the majority of White Australia doesn't need religion anymore. 

My grandfather was a Christian preacher and my grandmother still attends church, but only because it offers her a sense of community in her 90s. My parents who met at church are both agnostic or probably atheist and didn't force my sister or I to go to church. The only reason Christianity continues for the most part in the Western world, is because it is inherented.

And calling opposing views to yours a sickness shows just how desperate you've become to cling to your regressive, outdated ways.

learn something every day on demonland

i never realised that it was christians who invented marriage

and if the left think it is a "ridiculous construct" why are they fighting for gay marriage?

christianity (apart from its beginning period) is probably at its lowest point ever in participation, relevance and secular influence, yet you feel oppressed by christianity. sheesh. I can't even think of one acquaintance who attends a christian church. sure, i know they exist but your christian paranoia over a token, marginalised and declining religion is very misplaced

  On 16/02/2017 at 22:56, A F said:

I know where you sit on Christianity. "The bedrock of Western civilisation" etc. You're radicalised. Christianity has made women and homosexuals second class citizens for centuries. It's a dated patriarchial system written by men to control women and the rest of society. Look at the ridiculous construct of marriage.

And don't tell me my society needs Christianity to know how to treat one and other. It's a laughable argument to say Christianity frames my Western values or that of my country. Historically, the British that came here were god-fearing (and committed atrocities in the name of Christianity), but we've moved on and the majority of White Australia doesn't need religion anymore. 

My grandfather was a Christian preacher and my grandmother still attends church, but only because it offers her a sense of community in her 90s. My parents who met at church are both agnostic or probably atheist and didn't force my sister or I to go to church. The only reason Christianity continues for the most part in the Western world, is because it is inherented.

And calling opposing views to yours a sickness shows just how desperate you've become to cling to your regressive, outdated ways.

1. It's extraordinary that the left can't debate Islam without constantly referring to Christianity.  Try actually arguing in favour of Islamic practices and Muslim immigration without referencing Christianity in the same breath.  You won't be able to.

2. I'm not interested in your personal story or family history.  No weight is added to your argument. 

3. Whether you're smart enough to realise it, or not (the latter), Christianity has shaped the West's culture and values.  Totally !

Finally some support from the more Christian ,errr,,, brothers.

I have an explanation of why Islam is such a wretched and filthy stain on the earth.

Cousin marriage.

Muslims are so inbred that 1 in 3 Pakistanis has a birth defect.

1 in 3 Somalis have a diagnosed mental illness.

1 in 2 Muslim children cannot read after 10 years in the Danish school system.

The royal family realised this problem generations ago.

Explains a hell of a lot about Islamists.

 

 

  On 16/02/2017 at 23:56, Biffen said:

Finally some support from the more Christian ,errr,,, brothers.

I have an explanation of why Islam is such a wretched and filthy stain on the earth.

Cousin marriage.

Muslims are so inbred that 1 in 3 Pakistanis has a birth defect.

1 in 3 Somalis have a diagnosed mental illness.

1 in 2 Muslim children cannot read after 10 years in the Danish school system.

The royal family realised this problem generations ago.

Explains a hell of a lot about Islamists.

 

 

That's why they always seem to say," he was suffering some sort of mental illness" when a jihadist commits some sort of terrorist attack.

This is not a competition between the Christians and the Muslims, it's a difference in the outlook on life between civilised and uncivilised.

 

  On 16/02/2017 at 05:57, ProDee said:

 

And why does every quarter-wit leftist bring up Christianity in their insane attempts to defend the indefensible, which is Islam ?

 

This is what puzzles me. I have otherwise intelligent friends who at any mention of Islam will fall over backwards to bring up the perceived wrongs of Christians.

I am not religious and have absolutely no reason to defend Christianity besides the absurdity of the "but Christians..." reflex every time a valid criticism of Islam is made.

The Christian's have caused or contributed to an enormous number of problems over the years but it is not a valid counter argument to criticism of Islam. 

Edited February 17, 20178 yr by Wrecker45

Thiis is a good read for those that can crack the Australian's paywall.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opinion/blogs/jack-the-insider-stop-laughing-this-is-islam/news-story/65d5004672e901c36586894a4754bcb3

"However, Aisha, who married Muhammad when she was just six years old, recalled she never saw the Prophet laugh, at least not to the point of tonsil-exposed cachinnation but apparently he did smile a lot."

 

"So if poking fun at Islam is out surely it must be all right to crack jokes about some of its appalling political organisations, like say Islamic State? Well, no. Certainly not in Egypt where last year four Coptic Christian students aged between 15 and 17 were sentenced to five years in prison for mocking IS terrorists on a video they shot on their teacher’s mobile phone while away on a school trip.

The phone was lost or stolen and ended up in the hands of an Islamist who raised hell, gathered an ugly mob, rained terror down on the boys’ mainly Coptic town, pillaging homes and businesses and forcing the boys to flee their homes. Rather than engage the mob, Egyptian police turned on the boys and their teacher and charged them all with blasphemy.

Happily, the students fled to Switzerland and applied for refugee status. Their applications were quickly accepted and they are safe and well. The fate of their Coptic teacher is less clear as he languishes in an Egyptian jail for five years"

 

French elections coming up will see a Nationalist government.

Germany will dismiss Merkel who should be on trial for grand treason.

Italians have had enough of Muslim immigrants flooding in also.

Hungary already know what Islam is capable of and have gone further in naming George Soros as the architect of ALL this mayhem.A human tick if ever their was.

Poland want nothing to do with Islam.

Denmark,Belgium,Norway,Sweden have begun to realise good manners and socialism have ruined their countries.

There are 51 muslim nations for these people to live in.I would never want to visit one so I don't see why they want to live amongst infidels.

  On 16/02/2017 at 23:19, Dante said:

Tell me, how are Gays and Women treated in muslim countries?

In Christian Countries Women are allowed to leave the house without permission and an escort, they are allowed to work, they are allowed an education, they are allowed to drive a car, they are allowed to have sex outside marriage, they don't get stoned or imprisoned if they are raped, no genital mutilation, no forced marriages, which religion is the better one for women?

In Christian Countries, gays are free to go about their business and in some they are allowed to get married, if not they are free to live together and live the life of a couple, which religion is better for Gays?

It's a low bar. Christianity is better than Islam. Well done.

I'm not standing up for Islam. I'm attacking Christianity. People need to stop changing the subject and address that point.

 

  On 16/02/2017 at 23:42, ProDee said:

1. It's extraordinary that the left can't debate Islam without constantly referring to Christianity.  Try actually arguing in favour of Islamic practices and Muslim immigration without referencing Christianity in the same breath.  You won't be able to.

2. I'm not interested in your personal story or family history.  No weight is added to your argument. 

3. Whether you're smart enough to realise it, or not (the latter), Christianity has shaped the West's culture and values.  Totally !

Of course, you're not interested in other people's views. You're stuck in your regressive ways.

  On 17/02/2017 at 10:01, A F said:

Of course, you're not interested in other people's views. You're stuck in your regressive ways.

Dope

  On 17/02/2017 at 10:05, ProDee said:

Dope

Enjoy your football observations though.  Keep it up.

The Trump presser today was an absolute eye-opener.  But 'unhinged' is the new 'That's our President'  He was relishing the moment and so too his fans.   It's all part of his M.O.  Even those with unconventional minds can't figure it out. 

The media are going to come at him harder & harder but all that seems to do is fuel the bloke.  It's just as well he abstains from alcohol though - can you imagine what he'd be like if he was a drinker? 

I can totally understand those with far-right views - that's their right and I share some of those views and then some.  But it's hard to comprehend how these same people can be happy with this bloke as their leader.  I guess they're 'all-in' just so they don't dare give any ammunition to the other side. 

Anyway, true to his word, @wrecker maintains that Trump is going to be an absolute train-wreck

  On 17/02/2017 at 09:58, A F said:

It's a low bar. Christianity is better than Islam. Well done.

I'm not standing up for Islam. I'm attacking Christianity. People need to stop changing the subject and address that point.

 

 

You should read your own tripe, all you ever do is stand up for muslims and try to deflect every conversation on to Christians.

the world is a lot less safe because of them and try as you might you will never be able to alter that undeniable fact. Islam is the lowest bar and I couldn't give a [censored] about Christians. 

 

Edited February 17, 20178 yr by Dante

  On 17/02/2017 at 11:19, Dante said:

 

You should read your own tripe, all you ever do is stand up for muslims and try to deflect every conversation on to Christians.

the world is a lot less safe because of them and try as you might you will never be able to alter that undeniable fact. Islam is the lowest bar and I couldn't give a [censored] about Christians. 

 

Well yes the world is a lot less safe but this is mainly due to George W blundering into Iraq and destabilised the whole region in the service of the Sunni Saudi Royal Family in their battle for supremacy in the Middle East against Shiite revolutionary Iran. This political vacuum created by US intervention has created the environment where violent lunatics like IS have flourished. 

  On 17/02/2017 at 11:52, Earl Hood said:

Well yes the world is a lot less safe but this is mainly due to George W blundering into Iraq and destabilised the whole region in the service of the Sunni Saudi Royal Family in their battle for supremacy in the Middle East against Shiite revolutionary Iran. This political vacuum created by US intervention has created the environment where violent lunatics like IS have flourished. 

911 occurred before they invaded Iraq and don't tell me that there were no Islamic terrorists prior to that.

Anyway the common reason why the world is no longer a safe place is because of ........? 

  On 17/02/2017 at 12:22, Dante said:

911 occurred before they invaded Iraq and don't tell me that there were no Islamic terrorists prior to that.

Anyway the common reason why the world is no longer a safe place is because of ........? 

...9/11 which was engineered by the Neo Cons and Israel.

  On 17/02/2017 at 11:19, Dante said:

 

You should read your own tripe, all you ever do is stand up for muslims and try to deflect every conversation on to Christians.

the world is a lot less safe because of them and try as you might you will never be able to alter that undeniable fact. Islam is the lowest bar and I couldn't give a [censored] about Christians. 

 

No, all I ever do is stand up for people who happen to be of the Islamic faith, who have done nothing wrong. I'm not standing up for fundamentalist Islam. You just read what you want to read.

In the meantime, I watch Christianity continue to do nefarious damage to our society. Islam has done very little to damage to Australian society. Islam is not in power. Christianity is. And we find ourselves in a harsh, cruel political environment, where an underclass has formed due to the Liberals' policies favouring only the very rich. As happened under Thatcher and Reagan.

If our society is so 'Christian', where is our sense of right and wrong when it comes to Manus Island? It's this pathetic double-standard that only a very few fundamentalists believe, where the belief is our society is framed by Christianity. Where does the holy piece of fiction say people should be locked up for trying to enter a country? Outdated piece of rubbish and hiding behind it is even worse.

And then no matter how much I claim to decry all religion, all I get is "yeah, but, derps, Islam is worser!" Well done. 

  On 17/02/2017 at 12:22, Dante said:

911 occurred before they invaded Iraq and don't tell me that there were no Islamic terrorists prior to that.

Anyway the common reason why the world is no longer a safe place is because of ........? 

Um, the Gulf War... you realise the Americans invaded Iraq before 9/11, right? No, probably not.