Look, as a football lover I do love to watch wines, and I'll include chad wingard who similarly to toumpas, had a poor first season with a team that looked hopeless. The debate about wines vs toumpas is not only ridiculous for it's circumstantial differences, but also for for it's premature timeframe. It's not toumpas' responsibility to lift the team on his own. As long as he plays his part, contributes and learns from his mistakes. If in years 4+ he is still averaging 17 disposals then we can wear it, until then, give him the chance to learn and improve, and turn the blowtorch onto guys with 5+ years experience who are still making the same mistakes as they were back when they had 16 games experience.

I really hope that Salem and Viney starts to play some good footy early, so that the same pathetic posters here ridiculing toump can start to see a good drafting/trading decision pay off.

I agree, Melbourne supporters tend to be more impatient than most, Toumpas isn't going badly, he has been at the club for a year and 2 games, won the respect of his team mates, some very experienced coaches and so on, but i feel he is a very emotional person and very much a confidence player.

I agree, Melbourne supporters tend to be more impatient than most, Toumpas isn't going badly, he has been at the club for a year and 2 games, won the respect of his team mates, some very experienced coaches and so on, but i feel he is a very emotional person and very much a confidence player.

Excuse me while I choke. Fifty years, I am a paid up member, I call that very fkn patient. And I'm prepared to give Dimitri time.

Bing this will probably offend you but I think you re in the Minority.

I am happy to be in PF's "many" on Demonland or anywhere else

I'd say we're in trouble as a club if the majority of supporters think with the... clarity... that "picket fence" does.

On this topic and others.

Salem will play good footy. He has a terrific blend of skills, toughness and poise - everything Scully doesn't have.

I think Salem is one that we are going to get right, he'll be a VERY good player.

This pick 2 swap will turn out to be an absolute stroke of genius.

Without getting ahead of ourselves, and I use our past excitement for our forward line as an example, the nucleus of our midfield for 2016 should feature jones, viney, toumpas, vince, michie, Salem, and Tyson. I've deliberately left watts, trengove, grimes etc off purely because it's too hard to tell where they will be by then, and I haven't added Barry, JKH, Reilly or any other young players yet purely as it's too early.

I have a very funny feeling that this year could see us trade players we didn't necessarily think were touchable- Howe, trengove, gawn etc.

Im now at the point where NO ONE on our list is really untradable...for the right price. If it would benefit the list...all bets off..now !! Id trade Toumpas..why not.

I agree, Melbourne supporters tend to be more impatient than most, Toumpas isn't going badly, he has been at the club for a year and 2 games, won the respect of his team mates, some very experienced coaches and so on, but i feel he is a very emotional person and very much a confidence player.

I wouldn't say we are that impatient, which I think adds to the "messiah" complex. It seems every year we assume it will be better because we have watts, $cully and trengove, Clark, hogan, and now roos. I think this is exactly why everyone is preaching patience, they know it's going to take time to turn it around. Use Richmond as an example a few years back, they started the season horrible, 0-10 from memory, and in the second half of the season when it all clicked, they won 6 or 7. I'm not saying it's going to happen to us, but I just feel that roos and the other coaches can only get so much in at training, and during the season you will see him improve the players- individually and collectively.

It's round 2 and while last week was simply unwatchable, for the first time in a long time I can see players putting in and actually trying. Sure mistakes are happening still, but you can't expect players to flick a switch and become sublime with their skills overnight.

I feel that judging toumpas now is unfair, and I think a lot of people on here will be eating their words later in the season.

Without getting ahead of ourselves, and I use our past excitement for our forward line as an example, the nucleus of our midfield for 2016 should feature jones, viney, toumpas, vince, michie, Salem, and Tyson. I've deliberately left watts, trengove, grimes etc off purely because it's too hard to tell where they will be by then, and I haven't added Barry, JKH, Reilly or any other young players yet purely as it's too early.

I have a very funny feeling that this year could see us trade players we didn't necessarily think were touchable- Howe, trengove, gawn etc.

I think the only one of those three that might get any interest would be Howe the others are NGE in the other clubs eyes

I wouldn't say we are that impatient, which I think adds to the "messiah" complex. It seems every year we assume it will be better because we have watts, $cully and trengove, Clark, hogan, and now roos. I think this is exactly why everyone is preaching patience, they know it's going to take time to turn it around. Use Richmond as an example a few years back, they started the season horrible, 0-10 from memory, and in the second half of the season when it all clicked, they won 6 or 7. I'm not saying it's going to happen to us, but I just feel that roos and the other coaches can only get so much in at training, and during the season you will see him improve the players- individually and collectively.

It's round 2 and while last week was simply unwatchable, for the first time in a long time I can see players putting in and actually trying. Sure mistakes are happening still, but you can't expect players to flick a switch and become sublime with their skills overnight.

I feel that judging toumpas now is unfair, and I think a lot of people on here will be eating their words later in the season.

You may be right Gd however have heard those words on a large number of occasions over the last six years.

Nett result a few average players and lots that are no longer on the list.

Im now at the point where NO ONE on our list is really untradable...for the right price. If it would benefit the list...all bets off..now !! Id trade Toumpas..why not.

Definitely, if Adelaide wanted toumpas and our first pick for Dangerfield. But you can't trade toumpas on his current value, as you wouldn't get a feel for his worth. Clearly no team is going to offer pick 4 for him this year.

I'd say we're in trouble as a club if the majority of supporters think with the... clarity... that "picket fence" does.

On this topic and others.

So you don't think that we have recruited poorly over the last ten years?

What exactly did every expert in the footballing world see at TAC level with the likes of Toumpas, Morton, Scully, Trengove ....etc etc.

It was not just our recruiters who saw it but go and read everything said about these boys from people who are paid to watch the TAC/Junior football and/or report on it.

It is like every highly rated recruit we have drafted has left all talent, speed, skill and willingness to develop at the front door of the MFC the minute they were invited in.

The common link is not who is being invited through the door but what's awaits behind the door itself.

Thats a very good way at analysing the situation

I wouldn't say we are that impatient, which I think adds to the "messiah" complex. It seems every year we assume it will be better because we have watts, $cully and trengove, Clark, hogan, and now roos. I think this is exactly why everyone is preaching patience, they know it's going to take time to turn it around. Use Richmond as an example a few years back, they started the season horrible, 0-10 from memory, and in the second half of the season when it all clicked, they won 6 or 7. I'm not saying it's going to happen to us, but I just feel that roos and the other coaches can only get so much in at training, and during the season you will see him improve the players- individually and collectively.

It's round 2 and while last week was simply unwatchable, for the first time in a long time I can see players putting in and actually trying. Sure mistakes are happening still, but you can't expect players to flick a switch and become sublime with their skills overnight.

I feel that judging toumpas now is unfair, and I think a lot of people on here will be eating their words later in the season.

I remember some on here saying the same about good old Col. Just wait until he has a full pre season he has so much potential!We no longer have the time gentlemen!

You may be right Gd however have heard those words on a large number of occasions over the last six years.

Nett result a few average players and lots that are no longer on the list.

Same, and spun by people telling us what we wanted to hear. It's unfortunate that a new season doesn't actually mean that- a new season, as until we make finals or are regularly competitive, the yearly count of abysmal years will continue. Still, at least we have positives so far this year, as opposed to last year where we were completely rubbish. I mention tyson, jones taking his game to another level, vince and cross adding to the side, regularly having the ball in our hand and not just chasing it defensively. They are there if you look for them, unfortunately scoreboard still says we are 0-2

I remember some on here saying the same about good old Col. Just wait until he has a full pre season he has so much potential!We no longer have the time gentlemen!

Not to rubbish col, but did you ever hear that he was showing professionalism at the same standard as say grimes or trengove?

So you don't think that we have recruited poorly over the last ten years?

At times, but not as badly as some portray.

I think it has a lot to do with the environment we brought these young players into.

Just because past players haven't come on is irrelevant, Toumpas is a different player under different coaches under a totally different club, after 16 games he has improved 30% statistically since his first AFL game, i reckon that's perfectly fine

last year he averaged 12 touches, 2 tackles and 3 marks a game

this year he averages 17.7 touches, 3 tackles, 4 marks and a goal so far, the kid is developing

It's all about needs, some clubs can recruit for the future some like us have to recruit for the now, or there may be no future.

At times, but not as badly as some portray.

I think it has a lot to do with the environment we brought these young players into.

And to add to that:

"at times … the same as every club".

Recent example. Garlett at Hawthorn.

Have a look at St Kilda: by 2011 there wasn't a single player they'd drafted in 2009 still on their list, and their whole drafting from 2006 onwards was disastrous.

Drafting is not an exact science. You win some, you lose some. We've had a few in both camps, as has every club. But as has been alluded to, is it the drafting, or has it been the environment?

Bing this will probably offend you but I think you re in the Minority.

I am happy to be in PF's "many" on Demonland or anywhere else

Nothing you'd ever say would offend me OD, even if I didn't agree.

Yes, Hawthorn are a good case study in a way.

For all their successes, they've still picked Mitch Thorp (a pick before Joel Selwood), Beau Dowler, Brent Renouf, Thomas Murphy, Schoenmakers (who I think will be good, but has copped heavy criticism) and Beau Muston with early picks.

They drafted Jarryd Morton, Travis Tuck and Jordan Lisle too.

Xavier Ellis for pick 3 wasn't great either.

Not much to judge in recent years as they've traded a lot of picks away for ready-maxes and their side has been too good for many kids to break in.

I think the only one of those three that might get any interest would be Howe the others are NGE in the other clubs eyes

We could garner some interest but it would mean some very unemotional decisions.

Just for a moment id ask demonlanders to put aside any...and i mean ANY investment in any player and consider what would be best for a future list...then work towards it. You'll have to give up some players to get others.

ahhh that wont happen...lol

so may neglect the idea of team and see it as an association of players, for whom many have an attachment.

Successful teams get past this....and so do we

Yes, Hawthorn are a good case study in a way.

For all their successes, they've still picked Mitch Thorp (a pick before Joel Selwood), Beau Dowler, Brent Renouf, Thomas Murphy, Schoenmakers (who I think will be good, but has copped heavy criticism) and Beau Muston with early picks.

They drafted Jarryd Morton, Travis Tuck and Jordan Lisle too.

Xavier Ellis for pick 3 wasn't great either.

Not much to judge in recent years as they've traded a lot of picks away for ready-maxes and their side has been too good for many kids to break in.

and picked up Simpson and rid themselves of Franklin

got no idea that mob

We could garner some interest but it would mean some very unemotional decisions.

Just for a moment id ask demonlanders to put aside any...and i mean ANY investment in any player and consider what would be best for a future list...then work towards it. You'll have to give up some players to get others.

ahhh that wont happen...lol

so may neglect the idea of team and see it as an association of players, for whom many have an attachment.

Successful teams get past this....and so do we

Howe and Trengove are two that i'd offer for trade

we'd get a first rounder for Howe i reckon and Trengove maybe a late first rounder early second round.

Rivers left on his own terms tatu.

had we not cut into our experience so deep, id say he would have stayed... The drafting strategy was a flawed plan... West coast have rebuilt their list and still hung on to experience.... Port still have 2004 premiership players on their list... St kilda and the western bulldogs are rebuilding now, they both have hung on to their experienced players...

The fact that we haven't improve is a direct result from the list culling of senior players...

Just because past players haven't come on is irrelevant, Toumpas is a different player under different coaches under a totally different club, after 16 games he has improved 30% statistically since his first AFL game, i reckon that's perfectly fine

last year he averaged 12 touches, 2 tackles and 3 marks a game

this year he averages 17.7 touches, 3 tackles, 4 marks and a goal so far, the kid is developing

Its not about the numbers its about the impact