had we not cut into our experience so deep, id say he would have stayed... The drafting strategy was a flawed plan... West coast have rebuilt their list and still hung on to experience.... Port still have 2004 premiership players on their list... St kilda and the western bulldogs are rebuilding now, they both have hung on to their experienced players...

The fact that we haven't improve is a direct result from the list culling of senior players...

No, it's a direct result of a lot of things though this is a contributing factor. It's not like Schwab wouldn't have become CEO if we had more senior players.

I wouldn't say we are that impatient, which I think adds to the "messiah" complex. It seems every year we assume it will be better because we have watts, $cully and trengove, Clark, hogan, and now roos. I think this is exactly why everyone is preaching patience, they know it's going to take time to turn it around. Use Richmond as an example a few years back, they started the season horrible, 0-10 from memory, and in the second half of the season when it all clicked, they won 6 or 7. I'm not saying it's going to happen to us, but I just feel that roos and the other coaches can only get so much in at training, and during the season you will see him improve the players- individually and collectively.

It's round 2 and while last week was simply unwatchable, for the first time in a long time I can see players putting in and actually trying. Sure mistakes are happening still, but you can't expect players to flick a switch and become sublime with their skills overnight.

I feel that judging toumpas now is unfair, and I think a lot of people on here will be eating their words later in the season.

Yes, Hawthorn are a good case study in a way.

For all their successes, they've still picked Mitch Thorp (a pick before Joel Selwood), Beau Dowler, Brent Renouf, Thomas Murphy, Schoenmakers (who I think will be good, but has copped heavy criticism) and Beau Muston with early picks.

They drafted Jarryd Morton, Travis Tuck and Jordan Lisle too.

Xavier Ellis for pick 3 wasn't great either.

Not much to judge in recent years as they've traded a lot of picks away for ready-maxes and their side has been too good for many kids to break in.

Ahhhhhhh They won the premiership didnt they?

Not to rubbish col, but did you ever hear that he was showing professionalism at the same standard as say grimes or trengove?

Dont know anything about Grimes and Trenners professionalism all i know is what I see. Soft weak bodies with few skills on show every week They are supposed to be leaders what a sick joke!

had we not cut into our experience so deep, id say he would have stayed... The drafting strategy was a flawed plan... West coast have rebuilt their list and still hung on to experience.... Port still have 2004 premiership players on their list... St kilda and the western bulldogs are rebuilding now, they both have hung on to their experienced players...

The fact that we haven't improve is a direct result from the list culling of senior players...

Problem was our "experienced "players were part of the problem!

Its not about the numbers its about the impact

BANG Nailed it Jack.

Impact is what we have none of. A certain Port player has shown it weekly.

Ahhhhhhh They won the premiership didnt they?

You can't be that obtuse, can you..?

Problem was our "experienced "players were part of the problem!

some were... Not all though...

Our cull went to deep, too early... did we really need to draft 8+ young players a year? We could have turned over the list at a slower rate.... But instead we just smashed the guts out of our team... In the hope of finding stars...lol...

Now players like Trengove, Toumpas, Watts etc.... Are expected to be instant superstars, who will lead us out of the darkness... How can we expect junior players, to come into AFL and dominant and lead straight away? And when they dont we claim them as duds and a waste of space...pfft... If Toumpas was at Hawthorne, he wouldn't get a game... Not because he is bad or a dud, because he isn't ready...

It's all about needs, some clubs can recruit for the future some like us have to recruit for the now, or there may be no future.

totally not understood by a lot of people who ALWAYS seem to be about what will happen with some player or other in a couple more preseasons

its always about a tommorow that NEVER .....EVER comes but they covert the illusion that somehow it will all happen in a season or two.

There will always be drafts and opportunities to trade ..How bout we assemble a team that can compete now...today...and next week.

I really couldnt give a rats who actually plays for us..what does it matter ( and it wil matter less and less as FA takes over )

Its about a team.. I support a team...not an arrangement of spuds

Its not about the numbers its about the impact

It's about obvious signs of improvement, the only requirement of a 16 game player is that they're constantly showing improvement, the numbers support the idea that he is, especially with a disposal efficiently of around 90% 17 effective touches per game, is good for a young player, means he has a role and he's playing it well.

the 3 tackles a game is an indicator that he works hard without the ball too, my non negotiable in footy is that you tackle, he clearly does that, and the 4 marks per game, he isn't taking pack marks so they are uncontested, meaning he is running hard to the right spots

numbers support arguments.

It's about obvious signs of improvement, the only requirement of a 16 game player is that they're constantly showing improvement, the numbers support the idea that he is, especially with a disposal efficiently of around 90% 17 effective touches per game, is good for a young player, means he has a role and he's playing it well.

the 3 tackles a game is an indicator that he works hard without the ball too, my non negotiable in footy is that you tackle, he clearly does that, and the 4 marks per game, he isn't taking pack marks so they are uncontested, meaning he is running hard to the right spots

numbers support arguments.

Sassy, don't bother. These morons are completely missing your point. The numbers also point to impact, something WYL and PF and their sycophantic mates will never see. You are wasting your obvious intelligence trying to debate with them. The Toump is being accused of being slow, emotional etc etc! He's a young lad trying to make his way in this Cut Throat industry where not only opposition supporters bag you, but here at the mighty MFC, your own eat you and spit you out. WOW!!!! If I ever stopped supporting this Club, it won't be because of our players and their effort, it will be because of the morons sitting in the outer spewing their invective through their keyboards. I can accept that we have some players maybe lacking in confidence, but who can blame the poor sods if they hear over the fence the vile carp spewed here by faceless cowards hiding behind their anonymity and their Mamas skirt (that would be you PF and WYL). I hope your proud of your carry on and behaviour you faceless, toothless cowards. God help the MFC, the culture is blamed for all our ills. This so called poor culture starts from the Fans sitting on the other side of the (Picket) Fence. The Clubs staff come and go, but by God, the Fans are still there.

totally not understood by a lot of people who ALWAYS seem to be about what will happen with some player or other in a couple more preseasons

its always about a tommorow that NEVER .....EVER comes but they covert the illusion that somehow it will all happen in a season or two.

There will always be drafts and opportunities to trade ..How bout we assemble a team that can compete now...today...and next week.

I really couldnt give a rats who actually plays for us..what does it matter ( and it wil matter less and less as FA takes over )

Its about a team.. I support a team...not an arrangement of spuds

If we are trying to build a team from the draft we are going to be miles behind Gold Coast and GWS especially if we are going to draft on future potential.

I would rather have two years of proven form than two years of "just one more pre season and he'll be ok".

It never ceases to amaze how some of the posters on here don't understand that a player can play really well in his first year and then GET EVEN BETTER, the thinking is if you start off well you are doomed to fail.

Sassy, don't bother. These morons are completely missing your point. The numbers also point to impact, something WYL and PF and their sycophantic mates will never see. You are wasting your obvious intelligence trying to debate with them. The Toump is being accused of being slow, emotional etc etc! He's a young lad trying to make his way in this Cut Throat industry where not only opposition supporters bag you, but here at the mighty MFC, your own eat you and spit you out. WOW!!!! If I ever stopped supporting this Club, it won't be because of our players and their effort, it will be because of the morons sitting in the outer spewing their invective through their keyboards. I can accept that we have some players maybe lacking in confidence, but who can blame the poor sods if they hear over the fence the vile carp spewed here by faceless cowards hiding behind their anonymity and their Mamas skirt (that would be you PF and WYL). I hope your proud of your carry on and behaviour you faceless, toothless cowards. God help the MFC, the culture is blamed for all our ills. This so called poor culture starts from the Fans sitting on the other side of the (Picket) Fence. The Clubs staff come and go, but by God, the Fans are still there.

Did you go to the game on Sunday, I did.

One thing I noticed was they won the first 6 centre clearances and kicked 6 goals, when we won our first centre clearance we kicked our first goal; now there's a surprise for you.

I have nothing against Toump and hope he turns in to a good player, but he is not going to win centre clearances for us and Wines would, we get smashed in the middle and are behind the 8 ball from the start.

Did you go to the game on Sunday, I did.

One thing I noticed was they won the first 6 centre clearances and kicked 6 goals, when we won our first centre clearance we kicked our first goal; now there's a surprise for you.

I have nothing against Toump and hope he turns in to a good player, but he is not going to win centre clearances for us and Wines would, we get smashed in the middle and are behind the 8 ball from the start.

Bla Bla, he is not a clearance player. Never has been, never will be. Not what he was drafted for. That's why you have Viney, Jones 1and 2, Cross etc etc etc. Get over it. And yes, I was there mate. Do you remember his goal, very clever! Put the defender on him off by pointing to a player a few meters away and watched him go leaving the Toump alone to score. Very clever! Lets agree to disagree and move on dude.

Bla Bla, he is not a clearance player. Never has been, never will be. Not what he was drafted for. That's why you have Viney, Jones 1and 2, Cross etc etc etc. Get over it. And yes, I was there mate. Do you remember his goal, very clever! Put the defender on him off by pointing to a player a few meters away and watched him go leaving the Toump alone to score. Very clever! Lets agree to disagree and move on dude.

You miss the point, but that's ok. Yes let's move on.

You miss the point, but that's ok. Yes let's move on.

Sorry is your point that it's toumpas' fault viney is injured and we didn't have the extra clearance mid that we recruited?

What's to say wines wouldn't have had stress prolems if we drafted him? Just because he is playing well over at port doesn't guarantee he would be doing the same here.

Sorry is your point that it's toumpas' fault viney is injured and we didn't have the extra clearance mid that we recruited?

What's to say wines wouldn't have had stress prolems if we drafted him? Just because he is playing well over at port doesn't guarantee he would be doing the same here.

Can't recall saying that.

My point is we are vey light on for clearance players and even with Jones and Tyson there we still lost the first 6 centre clearances; Wines is a big body and we desperately need that at the moment. You obviously disagree.

No, I'm saying with viney in there as well, you get the added grunt. People have quickly forgotten how tenacious he is due to his absence. You can't just assume that wines would be playing the same had he gone through the same past 18 months as what the mfc list has. If he had of, and toumpas was playing awesome at port, you'd probably be whinging we should have taken toumpas.

The fact is I'm guessing, and so are you. Ollie is at port now, toumpas is here, how about you get behind him? Reason he looks so slow is probably the weight of the usual demonland whingers weighing him down.

No, I'm saying with viney in there as well, you get the added grunt. People have quickly forgotten how tenacious he is due to his absence. You can't just assume that wines would be playing the same had he gone through the same past 18 months as what the mfc list has. If he had of, and toumpas was playing awesome at port, you'd probably be whinging we should have taken toumpas.

The fact is I'm guessing, and so are you. Ollie is at port now, toumpas is here, how about you get behind him? Reason he looks so slow is probably the weight of the usual demonland whingers weighing him down.

Oh come on.

It is the fault of demonland that he is not as fast as he could be.

Please

Oh come on.

It is the fault of demonland that he is not as fast as he could be.

Please

Come on OD I'm sure you saw that as tongue in cheek. It would be good to have all of demonland actually proud of a player that we picked though. Seems every year we rubbish one of our own. Yes a lot has been warranted over the past years and that's been done to death, but it's early days for toumpas.

Come on OD I'm sure you saw that as tongue in cheek. It would be good to have all of demonland actually proud of a player that we picked though. Seems every year we rubbish one of our own. Yes a lot has been warranted over the past years and that's been done to death, but it's early days for toumpas.

First sorry but I find it impossible to believe that a fan site will have that effect on a player.

Players in my view are rubbished because of their results, we don't cause the results.

Sassy, don't bother. These morons are completely missing your point. The numbers also point to impact, something WYL and PF and their sycophantic mates will never see. You are wasting your obvious intelligence trying to debate with them. The Toump is being accused of being slow, emotional etc etc! He's a young lad trying to make his way in this Cut Throat industry where not only opposition supporters bag you, but here at the mighty MFC, your own eat you and spit you out. WOW!!!! If I ever stopped supporting this Club, it won't be because of our players and their effort, it will be because of the morons sitting in the outer spewing their invective through their keyboards. I can accept that we have some players maybe lacking in confidence, but who can blame the poor sods if they hear over the fence the vile carp spewed here by faceless cowards hiding behind their anonymity and their Mamas skirt (that would be you PF and WYL). I hope your proud of your carry on and behaviour you faceless, toothless cowards. God help the MFC, the culture is blamed for all our ills. This so called poor culture starts from the Fans sitting on the other side of the (Picket) Fence. The Clubs staff come and go, but by God, the Fans are still there.

i can't say i have read this whole thread, but I've witnessed what your talking about here before and i agree 100%... Especially with your last point...

First sorry but I find it impossible to believe that a fan site will have that effect on a player.

Players in my view are rubbished because of their results, we don't cause the results.

some of the crap written about players here, is bordering on bullying... Every year demonlanders, without fail will rubbish individual players... The Morton bullying was relentless and the Watts threads have pushed the limits... I mean, what kind of a culture blames Jack Watts beard for the team losing? Jeez...

We need to get behind the players we have, or risk losing our club... If we don't turn up to games, the club doesn't make money... Simple...

Im sure the AFL have us half way too Hobart anyway... Where their are people jumping out of their skin to have there own team...

No, I'm saying with viney in there as well, you get the added grunt. People have quickly forgotten how tenacious he is due to his absence. You can't just assume that wines would be playing the same had he gone through the same past 18 months as what the mfc list has. If he had of, and toumpas was playing awesome at port, you'd probably be whinging we should have taken toumpas.

The fact is I'm guessing, and so are you. Ollie is at port now, toumpas is here, how about you get behind him? Reason he looks so slow is probably the weight of the usual demonland whingers weighing him down.

I was very keen to take Wines in the drafb and said so on here, so why would I whinge if Toump turned out better?

I'd made my choice and you can make all the excuses you like, the simple fact is Ollie Wines looks like being a star and Toump is no where near that, good honest player.

I wish him well, we desperately need him to be a good player and not another botched selection.

I was very keen to take Wines in the drafb and said so on here, so why would I whinge if Toump turned out better?

I'd made my choice and you can make all the excuses you like, the simple fact is Ollie Wines looks like being a star and Toump is no where near that, good honest player.

I wish him well, we desperately need him to be a good player and not another botched selection.

that is pretty much my stand to.

I believe we picked the wrong player.

It aint Jimmy's fault. But he better be good because Wines is going to rack up BOG performances. (But Wines can't get any better i hear...!!! Can't believe i heard that as a retort)

If you consider that attitude bullying i can't help it.

Not to rubbish col, but did you ever hear that he was showing professionalism at the same standard as say grimes or trengove?

Probably the same output unfortunately. Professionalism or not.