No use sacking Neeld

[PJ_12345 1,098]

Its funny, i was thinking something similar this morning. Not so much meeting his own expectations as such more that as RR notes when his objective was to make MFC the hardest team to play against. He made it very clear that this was his goal (as opposed to say other measurements such as wins or ladder position).

So i would say this is more than an expectation - its is his chosen key measure of his success as a coach. Now, he is getting close to half way through his contract, more than enough time to have made significant inroads into meeting this fundamental measure and as demonstrated last week we are actually less difficult to play against than before he started (look at our pressure stats this year - they're appalling).

It is his own measure of success to be judged by and he has failed to meet it.

To that i'd add that a fundamental KPI for a coach (in any team sport) is that their team comes psychologically ready to play, that they play with effort and the required intensity. He has failed to meet that KPI and whilst the players have responsibilities in that regard i'm sick of Neeld deflecting responsibility for the lack of effort all onto the players.

He talks about people not worrying about his well being but instead worry about the players (see Burgan interview on Dee TV for the latest example - by the by i thought that gig was Robbos). Well perhaps he could help the players by accepting some responsibility for their lack of competitiveness.

I have not heard him once take personal responsibility for not meeting this KPI and i wish a journo would ask him about this and also to ask what he is doing on a personal level to improve his performance.

His goal was a long-term target and you're judging him less than 1 and a half seasons in.

Not really a fair or comparable time frame is it?

[Cheap Seats 3,310]

Sorry, you and Mark Neeld may be willing to reassess expectations to 25 goal defeats and 10 goal loss to GCS at home but I'm not.

Thats fine 55 - you call it expectations I call it dealing with reality and moving forward.

Getting upset and demandin change has solved nothing for the MFC so far but [censored] it hey 55? Maybe you should clarify in your arguments you're not interested in facts and are just upset

Enjoy

[iv'a worn smith 1,979]

Sorry, you and Mark Neeld may be willing to reassess expectations to 25 goal defeats and 10 goal loss to GCS at home but I'm not.

Added to that UH, we cannot continue to go down the so-called "rebuild" path. We are in desperate times, requiring drastic measures. We had a chance at rebuilding, stuff it up and that is part of the problem.

The football world (read AFL) will not tolerate further prevarication.

[wmth 69]

If anyone's interested: http://www.backpagelead.com.au/afl/9448-for-fuchsias-sake-play-like-demons#comment-898779279

My weekly column is invariably about the Dees, although I wish it wasn't.

Some may notice some stats dragged from here.

cheers,

wmth

[Demon Dynasty 17,109]

We should certainly give Neeld the next month at the very least. If we can see some marked improvement or imagine even draw a win then he should see out the year and then only be replaced if one of Roos or possibly Worsfold became avaialble, otherwsie let Neeld have a crack at the final year of his rebuild.

If we cop more of the same over the next month then he needs to be replaced pronto and have Craig, Viney or Rawlings step in on an interim basis. As for 2014 onwards I believe we would need an experienced coach to help re-shape the culture and demand the respect of the players. Even if they only came in for say 3 years before handing over to someone else (ala Sheedy to Cameron), at least to begin to begin with so they can plant the seeds like Barassi did with us in the early 80's and with Sydney in the early 90's.

The only viable options for us in my opinion are:

Paul Roos - Turned around a Sydney side that was beggining to lag under Rocket. Premiership Coach

John Worsfold - Took a bottom 4 Eagles to the Prelim Finals the following year when most peopel thought they'd struggle. Premiership Coach.

Mark Williams - Premiership Coach at Port and has a track record of developing young players.

Leigh Matthews (short term) - To be used in the Barassi mould in reshaping the culture for a few years, would need some quality assistants around him.

John Northey (short term, yes that's right, Swooper!) - See above. Took us to 5 succesive finals which hadn't happened since Smith and hasn't happened since. Took Richmond to the finals once which has only happened twice in 30 years and laid the foundations as the first coach of Brisbane Lions, got them to a prelim also.

If we were to go down the path of someone like Matthews or Northey (short term) then you'd need to surround them with some quality assistants who they could hand over to within a few years once they'd laid the ground work. I'm talking about targetting the likes of Peter Sumich (forward coach), Leigh tudor (midfield coach) and Nathan Basset (backline coach). Obviously easier said then done, but as they say if you want to make money you need to spend money!

Nice work TD.

Northey!!?? Where the hec is he at these days? Are you aware of something which made you bring him up? I knew he was running some coaching clinic business or something for training junior coaches? I'd never even thought of bringing back Swooper. Is he in a position to consider this or are we clutching at rusty old nails here?

[binman 43,821]

His goal was a long-term target and you're judging him less than 1 and a half seasons in.

Not really a fair or comparable time frame is it?

C'mon, i would have thought judging him now is more than fair. He is halfway through a 3 year contract. If he was he making strides to meeting his own measurement of success then there would be evidence of this by now.

Tackles, pressure acts, few blowouts, smothers, shepards, consistent effort etc etc. By all those measures he is failing to make the side hard to play against at all, little lone the hardest to play against. Micheal Gleeson article in today's age talks about the doggies escaping the sort of scrutiny the dees are facing precisely because they are showing the sort of competitiveness Neeld promised we would show.

But lets say you're right. One can only assume when he set that as an objective he planned to meet it by the end of his 3 year contract. In all honesty if his contract is honored are you confident that he will actually meet it?

Edited May 16, 2013 by binman

[Older demon 2,779]

I don't think any action will be taken on the coaching front for at least the next month or before the bye. We face 4 finals aspirants and not the ideal time for a caretaker to come in and take the reigns. PJ is way too smart for that. Also listening to all the names bandied around it struck me that you don't appoint someone on their name or reputation but on their skills and attributes and how they fit your organisation. If PJ says the FD is badly structured and in need of reform then he will fix that area first, then find a coach that fits. Not Vice versa IMO. Neeld came in and tried to change an organisation and threw the baby out with the bathwater and that reflects his inexperience and Craig was employed to be his mentor. Neeld also moved on all the coaches except Royal. What I am saying is he has tried to reform the club to his ideal when I think the coach we should have employed should have been a fit for our needs and strengths and we got it wrong. The next month may be ugly on field but the FD needs fixing before the coaching does. Then as I suspect Neeld will not be there next year work out who is the best fit for what we want and throw everything at him....

[PJ_12345 1,098]

C'mon, i would have thought judging him now is more than fair. He is halfway through a 3 year contract. If he was he making strides to meeting his own measurement of success then there would be evidence of this by now.

Tackles, pressure acts, few blowouts, smothers, shepards, consistent effort etc etc. By all those measures he is failing to make the side hard to play against at all, little lone the hardest to play against. Micheal Gleeson article in today's age talks about the doggies escaping the sort of scrutiny the dees are facing precisely because they are showing the sort of competitiveness Neeld promised we would show.

But lets say you're right. One can only assume when he set that as an objective he planned to meet it by the end of his 3 year contract. In all honesty if his contract is honored are you confident that he will actually meet it?

Feel free to judge him but dont compare 3 year goals with 1 1/2 years progress.

Apples and apples.

Is MN capable of meeting his goals? Yep - has a proven track record. BUT Can MN, the FD, and the players meet his goals?... at this stage no way in hell. Our result is because of all of them are failing.

Viney and MN sorted out our list. Got some great hopefulls coming through, got rid of the dead weight but as a result our list this year is crap - the seniors could have been handled better in 2011.

Jackson will sort out our FD and organisational structure, and help with choosing a new CEO.

As for the coach, I'll support MN till the end of the contract.

[iv'a worn smith 1,979]

Feel free to judge him but dont compare 3 year goals with 1 1/2 years progress.

Apples and apples.

Is MN capable of meeting his goals? Yep - has a proven track record. BUT Can MN, the FD, and the players meet his goals?... at this stage no way in hell. Our result is because of all of them are failing.

Viney and MN sorted out our list. Got some great hopefulls coming through, got rid of the dead weight but as a result our list this year is crap - the seniors could have been handled better in 2011.

Jackson will sort out our FD and organisational structure, and help with choosing a new CEO.

As for the coach, I'll support MN till the end of the contract.

You may, but numerous other members/supporters won't = position untenable.

[Chook 15,022]

Provided Neeld is given until the end of the year, what result would be good enough for him to keep his job?

[iv'a worn smith 1,979]

Provided Neeld is given until the end of the year, what result would be good enough for him to keep his job?

An averaging losing margin of no more than 5 goals. Sheez, I can't believe I've just said that.

[MadAsHell 4,215]

Nice work TD.

Northey!!?? Where the hec is he at these days? Are you aware of something which made you bring him up? I knew he was running some coaching clinic business or something for training junior coaches? I'd never even thought of bringing back Swooper. Is he in a position to consider this or are we clutching at rusty old nails here?

Sadly I'm not privy to anything there RN.

I just think it makes sense in weird kind of way, despite the fact he turns 70 this year.

As you said he's still been heavily involved in coaching footy up in the Ballarat area I believe it is and am on vey good authority that he still eally loves the club. He's a coach who demands respect and as he did with us in the 80's and Brisbane in the mid to late 90's really fosters an us against them mentality which we could really use. If Richmond weren't obsessed with trying to secure Sheedy at the end of the 95 season what he could have achieved there?

I'm obviously aware that as he's now 70 that it wouldn' be a long term appointment, however due to his love of the club I reckon we could get him on the cheap and afford to throw more mney at quality assistants to take over after say 3 years of Northey sewing the seeds. Like Barassi did at Sydney for Eade we could do here with Northey for say Tudor or Sumich as the situation we're currently in is pretty unfair to throw a rookie coach into. Northey's been there and done it all before.

Lets not forget in one of the last games Northey coached for this club we knocked off the Filth who were top of the table at their derilict home ground at Victoria Park when we were out of finals contention. Just an example of what he could get out of his players, even when we weren't necessarily having our best seasons.

As I said I highly doubt it would happen, but I tell you what we could do a lot worse.

[jazza 1,323]

Nice work TD.

Northey!!?? Where the hec is he at these days? Are you aware of something which made you bring him up? I knew he was running some coaching clinic business or something for training junior coaches? I'd never even thought of bringing back Swooper. Is he in a position to consider this or are we clutching at rusty old nails here?

coaching ballarat swans in the bfl

[binman 43,821]

Feel free to judge him but dont compare 3 year goals with 1 1/2 years progress.

Apples and apples.

Is MN capable of meeting his goals? Yep - has a proven track record. BUT Can MN, the FD, and the players meet his goals?... at this stage no way in hell. Our result is because of all of them are failing.

Viney and MN sorted out our list. Got some great hopefulls coming through, got rid of the dead weight but as a result our list this year is crap - the seniors could have been handled better in 2011.

Jackson will sort out our FD and organisational structure, and help with choosing a new CEO.

As for the coach, I'll support MN till the end of the contract.

Surely PJ it is reasonable to expect some evidence of at least making progress towards meeting his stated goal. What employer would employee someone, allow that person set a long term goal (eg 3 years) and not track progress against that goal.

[pm24 451]

I don't think any action will be taken on the coaching front for at least the next month or before the bye. We face 4 finals aspirants and not the ideal time for a caretaker to come in and take the reigns. PJ is way too smart for that. Also listening to all the names bandied around it struck me that you don't appoint someone on their name or reputation but on their skills and attributes and how they fit your organisation. If PJ says the FD is badly structured and in need of reform then he will fix that area first, then find a coach that fits. Not Vice versa IMO. Neeld came in and tried to change an organisation and threw the baby out with the bathwater and that reflects his inexperience and Craig was employed to be his mentor. Neeld also moved on all the coaches except Royal. What I am saying is he has tried to reform the club to his ideal when I think the coach we should have employed should have been a fit for our needs and strengths and we got it wrong. The next month may be ugly on field but the FD needs fixing before the coaching does. Then as I suspect Neeld will not be there next year work out who is the best fit for what we want and throw everything at him....

I wonder whther he won the job because he said this is what he thinks needed to happen and if that's what the club was seeking at the time of his appointment. Surely the club would have known what he might do before appointing him.

Mind you, I actually think a lot of the changes that were made were probably needed, so I'm not against what has taken place so far.

[Cheap Seats 3,310]

Added to that UH, we cannot continue to go down the so-called "rebuild" path. We are in desperate times, requiring drastic measures. We had a chance at rebuilding, stuff it up and that is part of the problem.

The football world (read AFL) will not tolerate further prevarication.

True Iv'a - I think I have been overly critical of 55. I think 55 you and I are all on the same page excpet you boys say - we shouldn't have gotten to where we are as a club now' and I am saying 'we are here how do we deal with it'.

I really am angry at where this club is right now - but I don't think the club making reactional moves is correct. If the club comes out and justifies why Neeld isn't the man I will support it, especially with someone with some AFL nouse such as Jackson giving advice.

I don't think there is 1 correct direction to take - it's going to be a long road back up the ladder sadly IMO based on the talent we have on the list in 2013

What I think is unfair are some of the comments on this site about Neeld - cheap shots to support peoples anger

Eg - here is a stat I have purposly taken out of context to prove my point

in 2012 the MFC was 0 - 7 at this stage of the season

In 2013 the MFC sits at 1 - 6

Based on this stat/fact the MFC have improved from 2012 - 2013

I don't like the blind hatred on this site - We need to be looking forward how to fix this not ripping the club to shreds or we will become Fitzroy.

Edited May 16, 2013 by Unleash Hell

[PJ_12345 1,098]

Surely PJ it is reasonable to expect some evidence of at least making progress towards meeting his stated goal. What employer would employee someone, allow that person set a long term goal (eg 3 years) and not track progress against that goal.

I'm not saying don't track his progress, I'm saying track it with something comprable - not a goal he wants in 3 years

[dee-luded 2,959]

Deeluded one of the main incentives for Jim to become President was to make the Club more inclusive and get rid of that exclusive image. Yes there are a lot of us Melbourne supporters in the MCC and we come from all walks of life. Some MCC members save to pay for their membership some don't need to. I could spend the money I pay out for my MCC membership in better ways but I am trying to carry a legacy from my parents and pass that down to my children who I will probably have to pay for their memberships hopefully only in the short term. When at the Etihad I sit with a group of hard core Melbourne supporters not in the MCC members area. Your sense of exclusivity is not well founded. MFC/MCC members bleed the same and are feeling the same pain as everyone else. We do not sit there every week in the hope of getting an insiders tip on the stockmarket. Yes there are conservative elements in the MCC but there are in the general and reserved areas as well. We sit in the MCC like every other Melbourne supporter at the moment feeling helpless, disappointed and frustrated.

A few years ago Jim held a forum of Melbourne members. There were young, old, rich and poor but one thing bound us together was the incentive to get the MFC back on track again.

Don't tell me that in every other football Club there are those who are there because they believe they can contribute to their Club and there will always be those who are there for self grandiosement.

I don't know where you sit at the games but I would be happy for you to come and sit with us and get to know some very ordinary people but with an extraordinary passion for our Club. There will be many in the Northern Stands calling for Neeld's head and there will be others prepared to wait. You have made a general statement tarring all with the same brush. I hope out of the same sense of frustration that we all feel at the moment no matter where we sit.

sorry longsuffering, I was typing out a reply a little while ago, & doing a few things at once, tried to open this tab & accidentally closed it, losing the whole post... I'll try to re type it...

I've just found your post that I was replying to.

[binman 43,821]

I'm not saying don't track his progress, I'm saying track it with something comprable - not a goal he wants in 3 years

I'm a little confused so instead i'll say that based on what i have seen so far Neeld has no chance whatsoever of achieving his objective

[old55 23,707]

Thats fine 55 - you call it expectations I call it dealing with reality and moving forward.

Getting upset and demandin change has solved nothing for the MFC so far but [censored] it hey 55? Maybe you should clarify in your arguments you're not interested in facts and are just upset

Enjoy

I'm not simply angry and demanding change - I've simply come to the conclusion that Neeld is not the coach to lead us out of the problems we're facing, in fact he's a contributing cause. I'm quite sanguine about it (as RPFC said - in both senses) - it's a big ask and he's just not up to it. I agree we're in a diabolical state and it's definitely not all of Neeld's making but he's not helping, he's contributing to diabolo.

Edited May 16, 2013 by Fifty-5

[nutbean 8,838]

No. We need to make an offer he cannot turn down.

For 40 years i have watched other clubs rise to the pointy end with the right people.

It is now our time.

Supporters must demand the best.

Do not walk away

At the end of the day , for any established coach , no may actually mean no.

I dont know the exact details of the approach that was made to Ross Lyon - from what we have heard from the media ( uggh) we rang his manager and he said he is staying at StKilda and that was end of it. Freo proved that wasnt the end of it.

If Roos in our sights - then there many not be any offer that he will accept but going forward I would like to think that if we want someone we just dont make a call to his manager - I believe we should be a serial stalker and live by the motto - "no doesnt mean no". Keep on hammering from all different angles until no becomes yes or we have to move on because of time constraints ( or we shift our attention to any equally good choice) and no has to be no.

Whilst what Freo did with Lyon and Harvey was ugly - it was effective and it got their man - I say more power to them

[Demon Dynasty 17,109]

Whilst what Freo did with Lyon and Harvey was ugly - it was effective and it got their man - I say more power to them

Nut are you suggesting this club should become ruthless and do whatever it takes to get the best personnel off the field? Surely not. I don't think I could handle us doing this in order to become competitive once more. It would spoil the moral fibre and ethical fabric of everything we stand for surely. Besides, no other clubs are all that ruthless in getting their men! Tut tut, mind your tongue sir! Edited May 16, 2013 by Rusty Nails

[stueyspencer no12 73]

I agree twith the thread title, but disagree on the reasons. I'll explain why.

Jackson has come in and straight identified that there are problems with the structures in the club. He spoke about streamlining reporting to the CEO, and also commented that with all those other factors contributing to state of the club AND the playing list, that nobody really knows whether or not Neeld can coach.

Here's an excerpt fromThe Age quoting Jackons re Neeld and Neeld's response...

I ask you to open up the topic "when we were good" then go to "Hogans Heroes " and open up the highlights of Dees v Ess in R11 2011. Please do it! Then ask yourself the question "were we as bad then" Everyone who does this is gob smacked--I wasted the time of a few non-Melbourne supporters today, who were stunned by what they saw.

Importantly that tape demonstrates not only the great spirit at that time but also the undoubted ability of many players still with us today. WE ARE NOT THAT BAD! If a change is made now results would improve immediately. Waiting is the worst option of all.

Asked about Neeld, who has endured a nightmare start to his coaching career, Jackson admitted that judging his ability as a coach might prove difficult in the short term.

Angry Demons supporters yell abuse. ''He's contracted until the end of 2014, and that's where it sits at the moment,'' Jackson said. ''When he came into this club there has just been one massive external factor after another, and on top of that, we've got a very inexperienced playing list,'' he said.

''I think we've got to give everyone the chance, whether it's Mark Neeld or whoever it is in the footy department - give them some clean air, if you like, to show what they've got.'' Neeld said he had not heard Jackson's comments before the match, but revealed he had been heartened by the new boss' direction for the club.

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/mother-of-all-hidings-20130512-2jg9k.html#ixzz2T7o7jzog

Neeld seems to be right on board with how Jackson is approaching things. The important part for me, when reviewing this whole situation, is that a Coach, in my view, should not be ultimately responsible for the culture of the football club, the administrators and the CEO are. Schwab is now gone, that was the appropriate move. I firmly believe that a new coach, even an experienced coach like Roo's could not hope to turn around our onfield performance in 18months whilst also rebuilding the list given the culture of the club at the time. This team was less experienced than the GC team that smashed us (though I'm still [censored] by the manner of the loss), and less talented. Our top line talent would be seen as Sylvia, Jones and ?????? from that game, and that doesn't go close to their top line talent of Ablett, Brennan, Swallow, and young crop of Bennell, O Meara, Lynch, McKenzie.

I'm sorry but we don't even shine on a light on them talent wise. This, to me, is a byproduct of the poor management of the football department since as far back as the Daniher days. Think about it. Why did it take Travis Johnstone up until the time he was traded to the Brisbane Lions to realise the standards he needed to train at. Why did promising young Ruckmen, like Darren Jolly (dual premiership) and Troy Simmonds, start to develop and become solid AFL players AFTER they left the Demons. Why couldn't our culture provide enough incentive for guys like Scott Thompson to stick with the club. Why did Brock McLean, a guy many thought would be our next captain and who is now one of Carlton's most important players, want out of the club.....the CULTURE.

Why haven't we been able to turn Watts into more than he currently is? I don't blame Watts, I blame the club culture and the football department. Why did Scully leave? Money maybe, but he stated that he wasn't impressed with the actions of some of the senior players (think Moloney) during the China trip, again CULTURE. Why has it taken until now for Colin Sylvia to put in effort for a full game, both defensively and offensively. Hell, we've even contributed to the downfall of Liam Jurrah, who had never touched alcohol until joining the club.

A coach, can only do so much within a poor culture, and as has been reported by two people on here (one being me), their are people in and around the club that are stating that the list is tighter and more united than it has been in years. This is a positive statement. If thing's weren't changing we wouldn't have had players join us of the calibre of Dawes and Clark.

This club is in full rebuild mode. We are NOT going to be playing finals in the next 2-3 years because we are in the same position as the bulldogs, Gold Coast, and GWS development wise. We should expect inconsistent performances from the young list as Neeld and co continue to work to fix the problems of the past. Jackson has already identified that Neil Craig is probably the only experienced football person in the footy department. Until we can provide the coach with the proper structure and support he needs, only then should he be the one under the microscope every other week. Until that time, he needs to be given the opportunity to prove he can coach.

But first we need to fix the culture and the football department.

[dee-luded 2,959]

I'm a little confused so instead i'll say that based on what i have seen so far Neeld has no chance whatsoever of achieving his objective

Neeld has just spent his first year assessing the list from the inside out, & has only just cleared the immediate dead wood that cannot help fix the club... Of course we have momentarily gone backwards, but only momentarily...

Do'nt blame Neeld,,, for the previous 10 years of drafting & poor culture, & the inability thru those 10 years to develop any players into an Elite A+ player... Even Neita was only at his best every so often...

... the rest you could raffle them as far as I'm concerned, except Jnr.. I'd have him in my team any time, as a player, or as an off field assistant.

our club culture makes us over value our players & this is why we pay to highly in salary cap, compared to Premier teams... we pay the same for B & C graders. we are used to play boys, who put in dash & a leap, then fall over, getting up holding the ball aloft to the cheers.....

& this is why great players would never come to Melbourne, or great Coaches... even Barassi had his demands before he would come on board... He turned us around, then left, so the players could play for one another,,, instead of inspite of him. this was the selflessness & the professionalism of the man, to hand over the ready reigns to another, to lead the club onward.

but these acts go unsaid, & whats worse is, they go misunderstood & unappreciated by the masses...

.

[iv'a worn smith 1,979]

Maybe we CAN afford it at the moment as what we have will not take us any further ..If we had five cents in the bank and we spent it then we could afford it as it wasn't worth anything much in the first place..THAT is where we are at right now....ANYTHING can only be a gain.. We are at "rock Bottom"

This is the point I cannot agree with and is the basis why we need change in the FD. While not threatening the 8 with the list we have, we are better than what the results show. If we rip the heart and soul out of the playing group then we will not advance. We have already been down this path when we jettisoned Junior, Bruce and Green. We need seasoned bodies to help the young guys coming through.

Let's not repeat history. It is not the playing list that is the core problem at the moment.