When is a team actually a team?

[timD 994]

So we begin the year not knowing how bad we'll suck...again.

What has crossed my mind recently is the question of when is a team a team?

When do they go from a good collection of players to a 'unit' - a team whose cohesion makes it more effective? I'm used to dealing with individuals, not teams.

When our senior list is so volatile, when our experience in general is poor, we need to add that being a poor team is also a hindrance. Add to that, our coaching 'team' is pretty new as well.

How long is enough for the team to start playing like one - to be able to work well together? How stable does a footy team need to be to be able to function as a team? And then, what are sensible expectations for our team this year?

[Macca 16,644]

The biggest issue for our team right now is our general kicking skills and decision making. What often happens is that a poor disposer of the ball often makes poor decisions as well. We're nowhere near creative enough with our handballing and kicking.

Our skills don't match it with the best teams. In fact, we're a long way behind. We can win all the KPI's in the world but if we don't retain possession of the ball we can't kick enough goals. Sounds quite simple but that is the brutal reality. Aussie rules is a lot like soccer in that sense. In the old days when the ball was kicked to a contest it was different.

But there is a solution. We need to work quadruply hard on our skills under pressure at training. The players should have a decent base fitness by now and besides, there are drills that can help your skills enormously whilst at the same time help your general fitness.

The coaching staff should have drills in place where a player needs to hit a small target by foot whilst under extreme pressure. These drills should involve using either foot and the distances should vary (20 metres, 30, 40 and 50 metres). Similar drills can be done using handballing. To me, these are the type of drills we should be doing most of the time. Incorporating improving a players 'vision' is vital as well.

You cannot have too many blokes in your side who can't dispose of the ball consistently well. At one stage last season, I counted about 8 or 9 players in our team who had poor/average disposal skills. You cannot hope to win games of footy if that is the case. As in often the case, the players who are the 'goers' are the ones who often can't kick or handpass well.(under pressure)

Hard at it types + good skills under pressure = a winning team. Obviously this involves having good coaching as well. Playing as a team should be a pre-requisite and this is a coach driven area.

[dpositive 1,651]

It is a great question and I am sure we can all recognise it as such not only at MFC but at our local level and even in other sports.

It is interesting to me as our local squash comp does a bit of manipulation of teams each season (an equalisation process) to ensure the contests are even at each level and overall.

The best ranked no 1 is given the worst no2 and the best no5 etc. We quite obviously get it wrong some times as unexpected form or injury interferes BUT I have always stated that I like to be in the best average team as we can always spring the surprise and beat a better credentialed (ranked ) team as the competition gets more even.

Particularly if you can improve your worst performer by a few points it can swing the momentum for the team.

SO WHATS the bloody point?????

I was especially interested that in the recent champion data we had 1 elite and only 3 below average. I dont think any other team matched us.

It looked to me like we may have the best average team and therefore we can make a massive change with just a small improvement.

Another thing is that team work can improve disposal if a team mate makes space or shepherds off so that the player with the ball is under less pressure or the player receiving the ball has a little more time to provide a target.

An individual can do it - Jack Watts seems to be able to dispose but it may be his heightened awareness and quick reflexes not merely the fact that he may avoid those pressure situations.

[biggestred 4,820]

A team is a team when members of the team self sacrifice in order to achieve the team's goals. A successful team is one where this self sacrifice is valued highly. eg. shepherding.

Shepherding is the act of taking a bump or bumping in order to allow a team mate more time with the ball. It's a simple thing but allows the player with the ball more time to deliver and therefore deliver more accurately and efficiently than he would otherwise have under pressure.

We bemoan lack of skills but we never do stuff like this!

[biggestred 4,820]

And when you think about it - if you get 30 touches a game (if) - youve got the ball for about 30 seconds. Maybe less. So what are you doing to help the team the other 79.5 mins?

[Range Rover 1,935]

A team becomes a team when players exhibit signs of instinctively knowing what teammates are going to do in given situations.

A team becomes a team when personal glory is automatically dismissed in favour of self-sacrifice.

A team becomes a team when the hunted become the hunters.

Can this be achieved by a second year coach fresh off a 14 player list overhaul? Doubtful. But in-roads can certainly be made.

By 2015 we'll know if the Neeld Way © was the right way. Let's hope he can survive until then because there'll undoubtedly be times when the blowtorch is applied.

Expect to see some very ugly footy at times this season as the Coach does anything in his power to scrape together wins.

[Older demon 2,674]

Great question. I couldn't help but admire Geelong in the NAB cup saturday when it got tight. Instinctively they played to a plan and knew were to run as they moved the ball up the middle of the field. The secret I believe is in how many games you can get into the young players when they arrive at the club in the seconds. Thats right in the 2's learning the game style so they react instinctively when they make the ones. In the 80's at the Hawks it was not uncommon to play 50 games in the seconds before making your senior debut (Michael Tuck) and now Geelong have a core of young players to bring on who have played 2 seasons in the 2's even the great Gary Ablett, Enright etc played a seconds grand final which they won. Collingwood is currently developing its second stringers at their 2nds. Contrast this to MFC and casey where we wont let our players play finals at Casey and look to get as many games into you in your first year. Thank goodness Viney got to spend a year at casey as will Jessie Hogan there is NO quick fix to team culture!!!

[Range Rover 1,935]

Forgot to add a fourth ingredient ... the MOST IMPORTANT.

A team becomes a team when it starts WINNING.

Winning.

There's no other cure.

[Akum 2,660]

So we begin the year not knowing how bad we'll suck...again.

What has crossed my mind recently is the question of when is a team a team?

When do they go from a good collection of players to a 'unit' - a team whose cohesion makes it more effective? I'm used to dealing with individuals, not teams.

When our senior list is so volatile, when our experience in general is poor, we need to add that being a poor team is also a hindrance. Add to that, our coaching 'team' is pretty new as well.

How long is enough for the team to start playing like one - to be able to work well together? How stable does a footy team need to be to be able to function as a team? And then, what are sensible expectations for our team this year?

This to me is by far the most important factor for our future.

If we can play as a team, we could beat some good teams. If we can't, I wouldn't expect too much improvement from last year.

There is a tendency to focus on individuals - "if we could get one A-grade mid ...", or "if player X tried harder ...", or to argue who should play ("Sellar or Pedersen") or where ("Grimes - mid or HBF?"). The one thing that will really improve our overall performance is if we start to combine as a team.

We do seem to be getting better at it, but there's a long way to go. Part of is getting structures right, and there's definitely been progress there. On the other hand, sometimes it can just click into place (Geelong 2007) and underperforming individuals suddenly seem to make much more of a contribution.

[timD 994]

I presume that here also must be a level of stability with those players that are (a) highest in talent and (b) best at giving example to and directing of team culture. So until we have a certain level of talent playing games together in the right way, we'll be a ways of being a good team?

[Akum 2,660]

I presume that here also must be a level of stability with those players that are (a) highest in talent and ( B) best at giving example to and directing of team culture. So until we have a certain level of talent playing games together in the right way, we'll be a ways of being a good team?

I think that's a key part of it. If we can stick with a midfield "A-team", for example, and sort out what roles each of them are going to play, it's going to be much more effective than just sticking in the required 8 or 10 miscellaneous mids and hoping they'll sort it out between them.

We don't seem to have used our practice matches to get our midfield A-team to play together; we seem to be trying to work out which fringe players are in and which aren't. Or maybe we just haven't reached that stage yet - we don't actually have a complete A-team.

Edited March 11, 2013 by Akum

[Sir Why You Little 36,668]

The definition of a "Team" has got to be The Melbourne Storm. The have it on & off the field.

God i long for the day some of it rubs off on the Demons.

Stripped of points for a season & still won enough games to make the finals.

The Coach stays because the Storm is his team, regardless of other contract offers.

Look no further for a team than the Melbourne Storm.

[Hardnut 327]

The biggest issue for our team right now is our general kicking skills and decision making. What often happens is that a poor disposer of the ball often makes poor decisions as well. We're nowhere near creative enough with our handballing and kicking.

Our skills don't match it with the best teams. In fact, we're a long way behind. We can win all the KPI's in the world but if we don't retain possession of the ball we can't kick enough goals. Sounds quite simple but that is the brutal reality. Aussie rules is a lot like soccer in that sense. In the old days when the ball was kicked to a contest it was different.

But there is a solution. We need to work quadruply hard on our skills under pressure at training. The players should have a decent base fitness by now and besides, there are drills that can help your skills enormously whilst at the same time help your general fitness.

The coaching staff should have drills in place where a player needs to hit a small target by foot whilst under extreme pressure. These drills should involve using either foot and the distances should vary (20 metres, 30, 40 and 50 metres). Similar drills can be done using handballing. To me, these are the type of drills we should be doing most of the time. Incorporating improving a players 'vision' is vital as well.

You cannot have too many blokes in your side who can't dispose of the ball consistently well. At one stage last season, I counted about 8 or 9 players in our team who had poor/average disposal skills. You cannot hope to win games of footy if that is the case. As in often the case, the players who are the 'goers' are the ones who often can't kick or handpass well.(under pressure)

Hard at it types + good skills under pressure = a winning team. Obviously this involves having good coaching as well. Playing as a team should be a pre-requisite and this is a coach driven area.

Very well put Macca.

Two points to add:

players have to know what they are expected to do under certain situations

players have to know each other well so they react instinctively to whatever happens.

[Macca 16,644]

Very well put Macca.

Two points to add:

players have to know what they are expected to do under certain situations

players have to know each other well so they react instinctively to whatever happens.

It's quite a bit off topic with regards the thread but it is connected ...

Modern team footy requires a team to keep possession of the footy. And a big part of keeping possession of the footy is the team having very good basic kicking skills. We're not the only club to have a number of players on the list who aren't great kicks.

General execution of kicking should play a large part in our training. I wasn't joking about Stevie J being a kicking and skills coach - even right now.(although it would obviously have to be part time) Teams are full time professionals and a greater emphasis needs to placed on the basic skills of the game. It can't be assumed that all players have the necessary tools when they get drafted. Many don't have these necessary tools and it stands out.

It seems to be that ex full forwards are often the specialist kicking coaches. The reality is that players need to practice hitting targets of various distances whilst under pressure. Match practice isn't anywhere near enough (at practice) Doing set shots or kicking to a teammate on the run whilst not under pressure is fine but what happens in a match situation?? You should train as you play.

This is not a knock on the coaching department because they'd be acutely aware of the situation. It is more an observation of our general kicking skills. Those who kick poorly or are 'average' kicks have been that way for a lot of years.

Often a partial reconstruction is needed. Cut it right back to the basics. Probably needs to be done in the off season. Kicking a footy is a bit like a golf swing - and many of us know hard it is to get that right !! I watched a bit of the Crows/Blues game and specifically looked at the field kicking to position. We're a fair way off I'm afraid although we may still get 10 wins.

It's our biggest issue and has been for quite some time. You've got to hit targets in modern day footy. And you have to hit targets all the time. As I said earlier, you can't have too many in your team that can't kick the ball well to position.

[Dr. Gonzo 23,723]

The coaching staff should have drills in place where a player needs to hit a small moving target by foot whilst under extreme pressure.

EFA

[Macca 16,644]

EFA

Yes, neglected to leave that bit out but it probably can be assumed that a target is moving (in drills)

Good point nonetheless Gonzo.

[My TD 156]

Yes, neglected to leave that bit out but it probably can be assumed that a target is moving (in drills)

Good point nonetheless Gonzo.

Can't assume anything.

Often there is no movement up field to kick to.

Players must have the confidence to run hard into space and have the ball delivered to advantage.

[Buffalo 203]

Couple of quotes from the greatest football coach ever:

"Individual commitment to a group effort -- that is what makes a team work."

"Winning is not a sometime thing; it's an all time thing. You don't win once in a while, you don't do things right once in a while, you do them right all the time. Winning is habit. Unfortunately, so is losing."

[Whispering_Jack 29,240]

So we begin the year not knowing how bad we'll suck...again.

I reckon we might have more of a "team" on our hands when people are more positive than that about them.

[Macca 16,644]

Can't assume anything.

Often there is no movement up field to kick to.

Players must have the confidence to run hard into space and have the ball delivered to advantage.

I was specifically talking about practice drills. Not the games.

I get your point though and am fully aware of what happens on the field.

[Tatu 416]

For me the glaring difference between the MFC and the top clubs is..... The lack of shepparding after a hand pass or kick.... Players in the top teams go into a Shepard as hard as they would a contested possession or tackle..... Shepparding is by far Our worst skill....

[timD 994]

I reckon we might have more of a "team" on our hands when people are more positive than that about them.

Yep.

Tell me jack, where do you seen the positives? We've had people within and without poisoning the club, No. 1 draft picks who are poor or who left us at the first chance, a midfield that has been stillborn and two totally revamped coaching line-ups in three years. Our senior players have left us in disappointing circumstances or been keen to get out, our club-saving president has died, the AFL have targetted us because they could and no-one gives two hoots. We are a standing joke inside the AFL media and with other supporters in general. We've won about 35 games in 6 years, lurched from disaster to disaster over the last 15 months and are being told that everything will be fine in time - just like last time, and the time before and the time before.

I'm a little over glib one-liners about 'positives', Jack. However, I'm not over constructive discussion about what it takes to be a team (the old idea about a team of champions being beaten by a champion team) and I'm convinced that the MFC will not recruit or develop a star. They've only ever done it by accident in the past. So, it is vital to any success that we get 'team' right, because we aint gunna have the star quality.

I'm prepared to look our darkened dawn and ponder about how, given all the failures, we might still succeed. I'll get to the RaRa's when we actually do something other than lose.

[Whispering_Jack 29,240]

Yep.

Tell me jack, where do you seen the positives? We've had people within and without poisoning the club, No. 1 draft picks who are poor or who left us at the first chance, a midfield that has been stillborn and two totally revamped coaching line-ups in three years. Our senior players have left us in disappointing circumstances or been keen to get out, our club-saving president has died, the AFL have targetted us because they could and no-one gives two hoots. We are a standing joke inside the AFL media and with other supporters in general. We've won about 35 games in 6 years, lurched from disaster to disaster over the last 15 months and are being told that everything will be fine in time - just like last time, and the time before and the time before.

I'm a little over glib one-liners about 'positives', Jack. However, I'm not over constructive discussion about what it takes to be a team (the old idea about a team of champions being beaten by a champion team) and I'm convinced that the MFC will not recruit or develop a star. They've only ever done it by accident in the past. So, it is vital to any success that we get 'team' right, because we aint gunna have the star quality.

I'm prepared to look our darkened dawn and ponder about how, given all the failures, we might still succeed. I'll get to the RaRa's when we actually do something other than lose.

Tim, I don't disagree with most of what you're saying but my point was that the first step in establishing a real team that can survive and thrive in a competition as tough and as hard as the current day AFL, then you need to start with a positive approach. Your opening line is dripping with the sort of negativity that sets us apart as perennial losers.

I don't have a definitive answer to the question in your OP but I do know that we need to shake off the loser tag before we get anywhere and, with due respect to your comment about "glib one liners", that means adopting a positive approach and not allowing ourselves to become mired in our past failures. Why discount the possibility of recruiting or developing a star now that we have a new group of coaches and fitness people working on achieving exactly that as well as a team that will get us back to the top?

I was fortunate enough to hear Neil Craig at the Melbourne Business Community breakfast on Friday. He made no promises but exuded positivity in terms of his expectations for the future of the team. Hopefully, his talk might appear on the club website and people can then judge for themselves the importance of such an approach when dealing with the club's future.

[Hardnut 327]

It's quite a bit off topic with regards the thread but it is connected ...

Modern team footy requires a team to keep possession of the footy. And a big part of keeping possession of the footy is the team having very good basic kicking skills. We're not the only club to have a number of players on the list who aren't great kicks.

General execution of kicking should play a large part in our training. I wasn't joking about Stevie J being a kicking and skills coach - even right now.(although it would obviously have to be part time) Teams are full time professionals and a greater emphasis needs to placed on the basic skills of the game. It can't be assumed that all players have the necessary tools when they get drafted. Many don't have these necessary tools and it stands out.

It seems to be that ex full forwards are often the specialist kicking coaches. The reality is that players need to practice hitting targets of various distances whilst under pressure. Match practice isn't anywhere near enough (at practice) Doing set shots or kicking to a teammate on the run whilst not under pressure is fine but what happens in a match situation?? You should train as you play.

This is not a knock on the coaching department because they'd be acutely aware of the situation. It is more an observation of our general kicking skills. Those who kick poorly or are 'average' kicks have been that way for a lot of years.

Often a partial reconstruction is needed. Cut it right back to the basics. Probably needs to be done in the off season. Kicking a footy is a bit like a golf swing - and many of us know hard it is to get that right !! I watched a bit of the Crows/Blues game and specifically looked at the field kicking to position. We're a fair way off I'm afraid although we may still get 10 wins.

It's our biggest issue and has been for quite some time. You've got to hit targets in modern day footy. And you have to hit targets all the time. As I said earlier, you can't have too many in your team that can't kick the ball well to position.

I don't think this is off topic regarding the thread Macca.

Other posters have mentioned both Geelong and Coolingwood have their own VFL teams - I don't believe we should underestimate how much this contributes to helping those clubs form genuine 'teams' - players coming out of those VFL clubs slot straight into the senior team. Surely this is one of the basics of 'what makes a team a team'?

[Macca 16,644]

I don't think this is off topic regarding the thread Macca.

Other posters have mentioned both Geelong and Coolingwood have their own VFL teams - I don't believe we should underestimate how much this contributes to helping those clubs form genuine 'teams' - players coming out of those VFL clubs slot straight into the senior team. Surely this is one of the basics of 'what makes a team a team'?

Yeah, I thought timD's thread idea more centred around the team 'ethos' or 'playing for one another' and didn't want to derail the thread too much into the specialised area's within a team - such as our 'kicking to position'.

Other posters can educate me and a few others here, but hasn't our relationship with the Casey team changed to a point where we have a lot more autonomy? A team set up much in the vein of the Cats and the Pies reserves teams?