Well said djr

As Real Demon says, it's too early to tell...

Good post BH.

I think for the reasons you pointed out for failed high draft picks, if there's a choice in it, we must take Wines.

Not that the others are slouches in winning contested footy, but he would appear to be king in this regard.

And his competitive beast mentality is the sealer.

As for recruiting experienced players, I've come to believe there is a lot to be said for the effective development of young players, by providing a system where they can actually perform their role.

Fielding a team full of kids that gets smashed each week, will not be beneficial for the kids getting the games.

Once they have had a taste and understand the requirements of AFL level footy, it is no longer of use to them to simply get a game.

They must get a game in a side that is capable of maintaining its structure, so that they can actually get experience in performing the role being asked of them.

It's like the old saying "perfect practice makes perfect."

Practising in a side that gets belted week in and week out, only serves to make the players good at copping beltings and trying to limit the damage.

We need players with the right mentality, with mature bodies, who can perform sufficiently to get us playing our game the way we want.

Enough so that the kids playing alongside them get some worthwhile experience, not just clocking up arbitrary minutes in the TOG column of the stat sheet.

This ties in with the mentality that Neeld has brought to the club of using every minute of every training session of every day for continual improvement.

Training for training's sake is not a mentality we should foster, and the same can be said for playing games.

Bailey was probably unintentionally fostering this very mentality with his discussion of "getting games into players."

I must admit, I was sucked in by it.

No longer.

Edited October 27, 201212 yr by José Mourinho

The more I think about it the more I realise that we as supporters look at our players as draft pick numbers.

We think that because they were a high pick they are worth more. What Neeld and the footy departments realise

is that once they are in the AFL system they are just another player and a draft number counts for nothing.

They obviously rank these players as below average and therefore do not mind getting rid of them if we get something

that we want in return i.e. Gysberts for Pedersen.

I hope all our decisions work out but it goes to show there is no exact way to do things. You can pick up a Dane Swan at

pick 40 something and he turns out to be a super star, or you can take a Jarrad Oakley Nicholls at a high pick and he

ends up a dud.

Go Dees!

In the Hun they gave West Coast a rating of 6.5 and us 6.

West Coast lose Lynch and Stevens and pick up Wellingham, Morton and Cripps, but their first draft pick is 46.

The Saints got the same rating as us even though they lost two first rounders they wanted to keep in Cripps and Goddard, one being arguably their next captain, and they couldn't land the key defender they were desperate for. Plus their first draft pick is 25.

Take no notice of the Media ratings.

Kicking us has been in vogue for years now.

The more I think about it the more I realise that we as supporters look at our players as draft pick numbers.

We think that because they were a high pick they are worth more. What Neeld and the footy departments realise

is that once they are in the AFL system they are just another player and a draft number counts for nothing.

They obviously rank these players as below average and therefore do not mind getting rid of them if we get something

that we want in return i.e. Gysberts for Pedersen.

I hope all our decisions work out but it goes to show there is no exact way to do things. You can pick up a Dane Swan at

pick 40 something and he turns out to be a super star, or you can take a Jarrad Oakley Nicholls at a high pick and he

ends up a dud.

Go Dees!

Exactly.

Supporters won't let go of the fact that Gysberts was a former pick 11 and it effects their judgment in any conversation about him. Three years later and he was worth in the vicinity of pick 40-55.

What we just did?

We gained 3 top 10 draft picks (pick 4, Viney & Hogan 2013)

Gained a top 20 player in Dom Barry

Got rid of soft players, Martin, Morton who didnt play a single good game in the worst team of 2012 and who most supporters constantly get frustrated with, especially in the case of Morton.

Got rid of soft minded players in Moloney

Got rid of Gysberts who hardly played in 2012, who the coach obviously doesnt like.

Got support up forward & in leadering for Mitch Clark who I doubt will be 100% next year in Moneyball players Dawes, Byrnes & Rodan

Got crap late draft picks that we will use to upgrade players like Magner, Couch & Nicholson and pass on the rest.

More to come this year and next year.....delisting players like Bate, Petterd, Jetta, Bennell, Lynden Dunn, Davey & probably trading out a talented but stupid player like Sylvia if he has currency

Easy on Neville Jetta please Nuncey.

"The kid stays in the picture"as far as I can see.

What did we just do?

We got rid of players adding little to no value to the MFC, and gained players who are likely to add a heck of a lot more value.

Morton, Moloney, Gysberts, Martin - none of them are best 22, none of them had good years in 2012, and none of them hold much value. To move them on is no loss, not individually, not as a collective.

Rivers is a loss, but IMO one we can cover, and not one we had a great chance of preventing anyway.

To ship those players out, and in return, bring in Viney, Hogan, Barry, Byrnes, Dawes, Pederson and Rodan, whilst still being able to go to the draft with pick 4, is a clear win for this club. All of the new players, bar Hogan (obviously) and possibly Barry, will play in Round 1. Rodan may prove to be a total flop, but at the price we paid, that doesn't matter, and I feel that he will bring as much to us off the field as he will on it.

We win. A lot. And anyone who tries to tell you otherwise is just accustomed to hating on us.

Because in spite of what many here seem to believe, Gysberts is not a budding star. In his third season, he managed only one game for 9 disposals.

Both Gysberts and Pedersen spent most of the year in the VFL, and played around the same number of games. While Gysberts did nothing of note, Pedersen won Werribee's best and fairest. In the previous year, Gys managed one Rising Star nomination - while Pedersen won North's best first year player.

The exchange of picks reflects the reality that Pedersen is quite a way in front of Gysberts, at least at the moment.

Spot on.

The more I think about it the more I realise that we as supporters look at our players as draft pick numbers.

I agree.

I don't care what Morton or Gysberts (or Cook) were valued at in 2007/2009. I care about what they're valued at NOW. Right now, we got what those players are worth.

In the Hun they gave West Coast a rating of 6.5 and us 6.

West Coast lose Lynch and Stevens and pick up Wellingham, Morton and Cripps, but their first draft pick is 46.

The Saints got the same rating as us even though they lost two first rounders they wanted to keep in Cripps and Goddard, one being arguably their next captain, and they couldn't land the key defender they were desperate for. Plus their first draft pick is 25.

Take no notice of the Media ratings.

Add Damian Barrett's 'I don't know what they've done, it seems a scattergun approach to me' line.

What did we just do?

Owned the trade period.

You might not realise it now though.

there is a massive difference between owning it and smashing it.

we did not smash it. we gave away Morton and Martin for sweet fa.

Ill admit we got some good pickups in there, im not angry, just confused.

What did we just do?

We got rid of those that don't train or play to the standard that will push the club to the standard it is required to be at to win a premiership.

We got rid of those that do not possess the build or hunger for the contest required to win a premiership.

We gained experience of players that do know what is required of a premiership.

We gained mature bodies that can withstand the rigours and contests required of a premiership.

Couldnt agree more with those comments.

Just think maybe we could have gotten more for the talent we just lost?

Just read on the demons website that our delistings have been named.

Petterd, Bate, Bennell, Cook all gone. I guess no surprises there.

there is a massive difference between owning it and smashing it.

we did not smash it. we gave away Morton and Martin for sweet fa.

Ill admit we got some good pickups in there, im not angry, just confused.

Couldnt agree more with those comments.

Just think maybe we could have gotten more for the talent we just lost?

Where does this expectation come from that they were worth anything more than that?

They had potential - it didn't work out.

Now we work hard to make the best of a bad situation.

And we are doing just that.

Do you think that maybe talent isn't the most important factor in a player's worth..?

It's amazing how identical we are to Richmond. We have done exactly what they did a few years ago.

im going to be optimistic, im just sceptical about the last 2 days of our trading.

Surely Gysberts for Pederson is not fair. we should have gotten a pick also, Gysberts is a ball magnet who doesnt fit in with Neeld's plans, which is ok. he still has value.

We should have said Martin for pick 33 or nothing.

The players we got such as Viney, Hogan, Dawes, Rodan and Brynes are some players we really need and im stoked with them.. as they are our present and future.

Hopefullly Barry does something and Pederson, followed by picking up wines in the draft!

we did not smash it. we gave away Morton and Martin for sweet fa.

And you think we could have done better?

Some could also (tic) say we gained a competitive advantage over West Coast, Brisbane and North Melbourne...

They now have Morton, Martin and Gysberts respectively on their playing lists; we don't.

Where does this expectation come from that they were worth anything more than that?

They had potential - it didn't work out.

Now we work hard to make the best of a bad situation.

And we are doing just that.

Do you think that maybe talent isn't the most important factor in a player's worth..?

I agree, but they are worth more than money.

Football is also a business. I agree they are both not in our best 22 or future plans.

They both have talent and we should have gotten more.. thats my opinion.

And you think we could have done better?

plain and simple, yes.

plain and simple, yes.

Please elborate

plain and simple, yes.

OK. I'll bite. How, exactly?

I'm not so sure that Gys is well suited to the way the game is going. His endurance is poor and with the new interchange substitute rules, endurance has become key. Yes he can build a motor, but he will be competing with other midfields that have players who have a more natural ability to cover ground. Getting to contest after contest will be a struggle for even if he starts to train harder and builds a motor.

I like his ability to play in close, but will he ever be able to out run a tagger if he becomes a top line midfielder. I doubt it

The Herald Sun is reporting that the Dees will be paying part of Mortons salary. Surely he was on little money given his output

It's amazing how identical we are to Richmond. We have done exactly what they did a few years ago.

Given the past 20 years, that's not a comparison that fills me with confidence. They have had a little bit of success with recruiting recently but they still have a long way to go to be a top team. And off the field, they still have a lot of work to do. I hope they improve, because the league is more fun when Richmond is competitive.

In the meantime, can we pick a different club to compare MFC to? I'd like to think we can aim a little bit higher!

im going to be optimistic, im just sceptical about the last 2 days of our trading.

Surely Gysberts for Pederson is not fair. we should have gotten a pick also, Gysberts is a ball magnet who doesnt fit in with Neeld's plans, which is ok. he still has value.

We should have said Martin for pick 33 or nothing.

The players we got such as Viney, Hogan, Dawes, Rodan and Brynes are some players we really need and im stoked with them.. as they are our present and future.

Hopefullly Barry does something and Pederson, followed by picking up wines in the draft!

The club clearly wanted Pedersen. It seems to me that Pedersen was a part of the overall recruiting strategy this trade period - ie, in letting Rivers and Martin go, we needed Dawes and Pedersen in return. The club nailed this.

Whilst I am slightly disappointed Gysberts didn't get one more pre-season with us, we needed to get this trade done - and pick 49 wasn't going achieve this.

In short, we had to give up something - Pedersen clearly had genuine trade value. Looking at the clips of Pedersen that Ben Hur has posted on other threads, he looks very good. In fact, I reckon I'd be nervous about this trade if I were a North supporter.

It also seems that our view of Gysberts is not shared by the current football department and the AFL world more generally. I back Neeld's judgement on this over my own.

What's gut wrenching is that Lewis Jetta and Daniel Talia were taken just after Gysberts in the 2009 draft. But I suppose we can do all sorts of circle work with our wasted first round picks under the former regime without really getting anywhere.

Neeld is clearly determined to change the culture of the club. And, without doubt, he is doing that.

He is also recruiting players that fit into a system. I like the approach - it seems to be more measured and sophisticated than the flabby, ad hoc approach adopted during the Bailey years.

And, for the first time in years, we have a forward line. It was an absolute joke in 2012.

Please elborate

Well Stefan Martin last year was one of the most improved and exciting new developed players in 2011. Martin is one of the rare talls that is agile and has the smarts to go along with that. Martin can ruck, forward and be a fill in defence if needed. Clearly he spent the 2012 year injured and that was most of the reasoning for why he didnt play at the level he did in 2011.

Martin therefor for his past improvement and an unlucky 2012 is worth more than nothing. If i had asked you at the start of 2012 do you think Stef Martin is worth pick 53 and 73, you would have laughed and told me not a chance in hell.

Morton has never really fit in at Melbourne and clearly hasnt put in his all for the club and the development of himself on the field and in the gym.

But when Morton plays well, it is quite amazing to watch a player like him that is perceived as a spud at the Melbourne Foootball Club, he plays like a gem. Morton is work to me about pick 60, not pick 88. Although pick 60 is nothing special, its not a PASS, pick 88 is an upgrade or a PASS.

Well Stefan Martin last year was one of the most improved and exciting new developed players in 2011. Martin is one of the rare talls that is agile and has the smarts to go along with that. Martin can ruck, forward and be a fill in defence if needed. Clearly he spent the 2012 year injured and that was most of the reasoning for why he didnt play at the level he did in 2011.

Martin therefor for his past improvement and an unlucky 2012 is worth more than nothing. If i had asked you at the start of 2012 do you think Stef Martin is worth pick 53 and 73, you would have laughed and told me not a chance in hell.

Morton has never really fit in at Melbourne and clearly hasnt put in his all for the club and the development of himself on the field and in the gym.

But when Morton plays well, it is quite amazing to watch a player like him that is perceived as a spud at the Melbourne Foootball Club, he plays like a gem. Morton is work to me about pick 60, not pick 88. Although pick 60 is nothing special, its not a PASS, pick 88 is an upgrade or a PASS.

Martin did not have smarts, as you claim.

Was often ineffective when played as a forward.

He was injured at times in 2012, but clearly there were personal issues that you are not privy to.

That no other clubs pushed hard for Martin, should be a clear sign to you that he is not the player you imagined.

Morton, while having an uncanny knack for finding space, was not particularly good at winning contested possessions.

He could run, but lacked strength.

His kicking was supposed to be good, but we rarely witnessed it.

Outside his first 2 years, when tempo footy ruled, he could not be considered anything other than poor.

Injuries might have influenced this, but how long do you wait for a stick thin player to get an injury-free run at preseason? His body was practically built to break down.

What he had provided us to date is not particularly hard to find nor influential in improving the side.

It was time to move him on, and he had very little trade currency.

We need players who are better than that with their strengths, and not as poor as many weaknesses.

Edited October 27, 201212 yr by José Mourinho