Oliver Wines

[DeeZee 7,445]

This from the Demonland poll prior to drafting. ("don't know's" make up the difference). For those having a slow maths day, Toumpas received more than double the votes that Wines did.

Who should we select?

• Wines (67 votes [28.51%] - View)

• Toumpas (147 votes [62.55%] - View)

Makes for interesting reading (if you're that way inclined):

http://demonland.com/forums/index.php?/topic/32253-poll-wines-or-toumpas/

I voted for Wines initially, because of mateship connection with Viney, and thought he was exactly what we needed.

Although i was unhappy we didnt draft him, i have now moved on, and look forward to seeing Toumpas develop over the years.

One day , Wines may want to come back to Victoria, and we may be a chance in the future,knowing it was Neeld who rejected him,and the fact that he is no longer the coach.

[nrc73 77]

Always made sense to me at the time.

We needed midfielders - we needed in and under midfielders, we need outside/spreading midfielders.

Toumpas was always rated higher than Wines. I will even be as bold to suggest that Toumpas made more sense - whilst we were certainly lacking grunt we were lacking "class" even more.

That's the part I'm thinking over and yes the 'we needed class' was a common catch cry at the time. Your example of Gysberts is a good one - clearly a clearance player that possibly suffered from the lower training standards at MFC and couldn't cut it at another mid range club. As most would acknowledge, there's more to picking the right draftees, isn't there?

I'd go for the inside & under person first, because there's no use getting players of 'class' that can deliver to the forward line if they never get the ball fed to them, but that's just my own opinion.

[nrc73 77]

I voted for Wines initially, because of mateship connection with Viney, and thought he was exactly what we needed.

Although i was unhappy we didnt draft him, i have now moved on, and look forward to seeing Toumpas develop over the years.

One day , Wines may want to come back to Victoria, and we may be a chance in the future,knowing it was Neeld who rejected him,and the fact that he is no longer the coach.

Are you sure about this? Source?

[nutbean 8,838]

That's the part I'm thinking over and yes the 'we needed class' was a common catch cry at the time. Your example of Gysberts is a good one - clearly a clearance player that possibly suffered from the lower training standards at MFC and couldn't cut it at another mid range club. As most would acknowledge, there's more to picking the right draftees, isn't there?

I'd go for the inside & under person first, because there's no use getting players of 'class' that can deliver to the forward line if they never get the ball fed to them, but that's just my own opinion.

We certainly needed both. It could be argued that as bad as midfield was - we actually had more grunt than class. Jones, Trengove ( I say grunt as his leg speed is so suspect) and an incoming Viney ( although I have little expectation of first year player - and that includes Toumpas). We had zero class midfielders.

I love Jones and he is becoming more adept at getting free but how many times do you see him get the ball in heavy traffic and get wrapped up ? What we want is someone for him to get the ball to quickly who is creative - Toumpas is meant to be that type of footballer.

I hope to see Dom Tyson being the best of both worlds ( from the little I have seen of him) - he can get the ball in close but has the composure and evasive skills to get the ball or himself out of congestion

I will repeat myself - i will always go for the better player first. The better player at the time of the draft.

[nrc73 77]

What my main beef about Toumpas is he is neither quick or damaging enough, nor does he show much appetite for the ball via some two way gut running! prerequisites for outsider mids.

Had we went for Wines then we may not have gone for the mids we did this preseason and if that was the case we could have picked up another KPF OR something else.

FWIW I would rather develop Jack Watts or Christian Salem as the outside mids.

We'll find out very soon if Toumpas has what it takes for two way gut running. Also agree that taking Wines would have given us another option with being able to choose another KPP and given what's happening with the forward line (over the last few years) & possibly losing Frawley, that extra pick could be something we wished we had.

For what we gave up for the new midfield (very little), I think they were incredibly lucky / smart.

Not convinced on Watts & Salem as outside mids based on what I've seen of their pace, even if they are up there in terms of being able to read the play exceptionally well. But I'm happy to take that back if someone has time trials / running performance that proves otherwise.

[nutbean 8,838]

We'll find out very soon if Toumpas has what it takes for two way gut running. Also agree that taking Wines would have given us another option with being able to choose another KPP and given what's happening with the forward line (over the last few years) & possibly losing Frawley, that extra pick could be something we wished we had.

For what we gave up for the new midfield (very little), I think they were incredibly lucky / smart.

Not convinced on Watts & Salem as outside mids based on what I've seen of their pace, even if they are up there in terms of being able to read the play exceptionally well. But I'm happy to take that back if someone has time trials / running performance that proves otherwise.

Blistering pace ( like Blease) is great but you only require good leg speed which the likes of Watts and Salem have but more importantly you need speed in ball movement. Geelong, Hawks and Swans ( save Lewis Jetta) don't have exceptional legs speed but they have all exceptional ball movement speed. Carlton have some really good pace in Yarran and Gartlett ( and Betts until last year) and you sometimes see it rip at team apart....for 5 minutes.. Carlton seriously lack smart ball movement.

[nrc73 77]

We certainly needed both. It could be argued that as bad as midfield was - we actually had more grunt than class. Jones, Trengove ( I say grunt as his leg speed is so suspect) and an incoming Viney ( although I have little expectation of first year player - and that includes Toumpas). We had zero class midfielders.

I love Jones and he is becoming more adept at getting free but how many times do you see him get the ball in heavy traffic and get wrapped up ? What we want is someone for him to get the ball to quickly who is creative - Toumpas is meant to be that type of footballer.

I hope to see Dom Tyson being the best of both worlds ( from the little I have seen of him) - he can get the ball in close but has the composure and evasive skills to get the ball or himself out of congestion

I will repeat myself - i will always go for the better player first. The better player at the time of the draft.

I respect what you're saying, particularly with Jones getting wrapped up time & again. I get the feeling he was trying to wear both hats (in&under PLUS outside mid) at the same time. That he can do both is to be admired, but go back a few years when Maloney and few others were around, it was Nate Jones' outside speed and delivery to the forward line that I reckon was his best quality.

You're right - they got Viney as that inside guy, but he was first year / had too little assistance last year, as opposed to Wines at Port. Maybe when Viney plays regularly with the new midfield this will all just have been a navel gazing exercise .

[deeko 952]

I voted for Wines initially, because of mateship connection with Viney, and thought he was exactly what we needed.

Although i was unhappy we didnt draft him, i have now moved on, and look forward to seeing Toumpas develop over the years.

One day , Wines may want to come back to Victoria, and we may be a chance in the future,knowing it was Neeld who rejected him,and the fact that he is no longer the coach.

I was a big fan of the mateship as well.

Also being an Echuca lad myself I got a few looks at Olly playing against men and the fact he was hard as a cats scone was super appealing as well.

I always worry that no matter how good the coach is, you can't teach someone to be hard and want the contest but I feel you can always teach someone how to kick and handball the pill.

Anyway, I still like the Toump and think he will become a classy player and one that all will appreciate during his career with acts of skill and polish

Wines however will be one we will all love during his career with acts of bravery and hardness.

[olisik 4,060]

It isnt just Wines we missed as we also passed on Mcrae who is tearing it up for the Bullies.

[Hannibal 5,814]

Based on an earlier assessment of yours, does this mean that Salem is now similarly doomed?

"Firstly, for the poster that asked whether Toumpas was soft, or not the answer is no. Don't you guys have Foxtel ? Also, he captained SA at the championships. You don't make a soft player your state captain - unless your name is Bryce Gibbs. OK forget that last bit.

McQueen: I'm very happy to have a quality big bodied inside mid at the club, but I'd prefer Toumpas purely because he's a better player."

(http://demonland.com/forums/index.php?/topic/32253-poll-wines-or-toumpas/?p=668450)

Apparently, unlike others, I don't have a brain like a sieve. I'm well aware of what my view were prior to the draft. it's the same with Watts. I wanted him too.

But I don't hold tight to views that were clearly wrong. I'm an amateur. I don't get paid to recruit players. I had no clue Toumpas would be soft.

I love big bodied inside mids and I've posted that countless times. I posted it around the time of the draft. That said, my view was that we needed some outside class. We still do. With Viney coming on board we had some of Wines' qualities covered and Toumpas would be a nice complement to Viney's manic approach at the footy.

What I didn't envisage was that Toumpas was going to be so out of his depth at AFL level. He should improve and naturally I hope he does. Right now his physicality is virtually non existent and he's not up to AFL footy.

Toumpas would not ge getting a game for GWS at the moment.

As stated, I don't remain wedded to views that were clearly wrong.

Edited March 18, 2014 by Hannibal

[Rod Grinter Riot Squad 5,654]

I wouldn't be so quick as labelling Toumpas soft 'H'.

He hasnt shown as much as we all want at AFL level yet and I can understand the doubts but I believe he just needs some time and confidence.

I've a lot more patience with him after watchinghim get smashed a few times in a half at Casey last year, get up clearly hurt and go again. The one that stands out was right in front of me, Toumpasd was the victim os a second hospital pass in half an hour and he was obviously going to get belted, he stood his ground knowing that he was going to get smashed. He did, I flinched watching it. He got up, struggling and willed himself to the next contest.

Yes, he isn't Wines, but I think he will show us more than many expect from his first year.

[nutbean 8,838]

What I didn't envisage was that Toumpas was going to be so out of his depth at AFL level. He should improve and naturally I hope he does. Right now his physicality is virtually non existent and he's not up to AFL footy.

Apparently either did all those in the know including our recruiting department or he wouldn't have gone number 3. Every knock I read on Wines was his disposal and frankly I am not seeing that either.

It shows the gulf between TAC and AFL and they can have as many recruiters and experts as they like watching all the under 18 games I still maintain that it is a lottery.

[rjay 25,087]

Apparently either did all those in the know including our recruiting department or he wouldn't have gone number 3. Every knock I read on Wines was his disposal and frankly I am not seeing that either.

It shows the gulf between TAC and AFL and they can have as many recruiters and experts as they like watching all the under 18 games I still maintain that it is a lottery.

Interesting that GWS didn't take either though.

...and I agree on Wines kicking, looked pretty good to me on Sunday night.

[nutbean 8,838]

Interesting that GWS didn't take either though.

...and I agree on Wines kicking, looked pretty good to me on Sunday night.

Whitfield was always going to go number 1.

There was little separating Plowman and Toumpas.

O'Rourke was the surprise choice.

Kept hearing the same whisper from dodgy sources regarding what was given up for Hogan (pick 3) and who we wanted to fall to pick 4.

Wines was only ever mentioned at pick 4.

[Ted Lasso 19,549]

The idea that you have to be a contested ball beast to make it at AFL level is just plain wrong.

Scott Pendelbury is not a contested ball beast and certainly in the best 4-5 players in the comp

No doubting Ollie is a better player at this stage but no one knows what's going to happen from this point on, Toumpas could surprise everyone yet and I think he will, i'm sure some posters will jump back on board as if they never doubted him before his career is over.

[deeko 952]

The idea that you have to be a contested ball beast to make it at AFL level is just plain wrong.

Scott Pendelbury is not a contested ball beast and certainly in the best 4-5 players in the comp

No doubting Ollie is a better player at this stage but no one knows what's going to happen from this point on, Toumpas could surprise everyone yet and I think he will, i'm sure some posters will jump back on board as if they never doubted him before his career is over.

Disagree. His ability to win the contested ball is amazing.

It's just that he is so polished and classy at doing it you would hardly believe it was contested.

Pendles seems to make time stand still when he is in amongst it.

[Ted Lasso 19,549]

Disagree. His ability to win the contested ball is amazing.

It's just that he is so polished and classy at doing it you would hardly believe it was contested.

Pendles seems to make time stand still when he is in amongst it.

He's good in traffic but he's not an out and out in and under midfielder.

[nutbean 8,838]

Scott Pendelbury is not a contested ball beast and certainly in the best 4-5 players in the comp

9th in the league last year doesnt make him a contested ball beast ? Only 9 behind Selwood of Geelong ( who played two more games).

Pendlebury doesn't dive on the ball. He just gets that hard contested ball as if by magic - pure class.

Edited March 18, 2014 by nutbean

[Sir Why You Little 37,125]

Scott Pendelbury is not a contested ball beast and certainly in the best 4-5 players in the comp

oh yes he is...

[Hannibal 5,814]

The idea that you have to be a contested ball beast to make it at AFL level is just plain wrong.

Scott Pendelbury is not a contested ball beast and certainly in the best 4-5 players in the comp

Who has said you have to be a "contested ball beast to make it at AFL level" ?

There are degrees of everything and right now Toumpas gets exposed at AFL level. He needs to get his physicality to a required "standard".

Edited March 18, 2014 by Hannibal

[rjay 25,087]

Who has said you have to be a "contested ball beast to make it at AFL level" ?

There are degrees of everything and right now Toumpas gets exposed at AFL level. He needs to get his physicality to a required "standard".

Yes he does. It doesn't mean he can't but he is way behind at the moment and I find that surprising after him playing senior footy in the SANFL for 2 seasons prior to coming over to us. It probably says a bit about the standard of that competition.

[Ted Lasso 19,549]

Who has said you have to be a "contested ball beast to make it at AFL level" ?

There are degrees of everything and right now Toumpas gets exposed at AFL level. He needs to get his physicality to a required "standard".

The thread title is Ollie Wines, who has constantly been referred too as a contested ball beast, and almost the entire argument against Jimmy is that he isn't a contested ball beast.

But irrelevant, it's a thread for expressing opinions,

mine is that Jimmy was okay in his first year, unrealistic expectations aside I think he did about what you'd expect from a young man coming off no pre season really in his first year, he had a couple of 20 plus touches games and when he gets some games into him he will only need 20 touches to have an impact with the quality of his disposal,

I actually think we got the best indication of what sort of player Jimmy is going to be from his VFL form, he just needs to transfer that to AFL level and he'll be fine.

[nutbean 8,838]

The thread title is Ollie Wines, who has constantly been referred too as a contested ball beast, and almost the entire argument against Jimmy is that he isn't a contested ball beast.

But irrelevant, it's a thread for expressing opinions,

mine is that Jimmy was okay in his first year, unrealistic expectations aside I think he did about what you'd expect from a young man coming off no pre season really in his first year, he had a couple of 20 plus touches games and when he gets some games into him he will only need 20 touches to have an impact with the quality of his disposal,

I actually think we got the best indication of what sort of player Jimmy is going to be from his VFL form, he just needs to transfer that to AFL level and he'll be fine.

No it isn't

I think most here recognise that Toumpas is not and won't be the same sort of contested ball beast that Wines is.

The comparison is being made because most thought that before Toumpas slipped to pick 4 , that we would pick Wines. So the comparison is natural thing to do.

Two obvious points - Wines had a seriously good debut season. Toumpas was ordinary at best (you can give whatever reason/s you like - I actually don't hve high expectations of first year players). Secondly I don't think we are comparing their abilities to win contested balls - we are looking at how Toumpas ( compared to Wines) went at contests and he needs to improve this area of his game.

[jackaub 1,402]

Wines becoming a great player doesn't mean Toumpas won't be one.

But don't let me stop the panic and wrist cutting.

Stui thats such a pathetic thing to say Look at reality

[nutbean 8,838]

Stui thats such a pathetic thing to say Look at reality

The reality is that Toumpas has played one season. You want to call it now after one season ?