Ross Lyon: Integrity Questioned

[Nascent 9,283]

Article with some interesting comments from AD.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/lyon-quits-to-replace-sacked-harvey/story-e6frf9jf-1226138146342

These two quotes caught my attention:

"I think people are entitled to ask questions about issues of commitment (and) integrity," he said.

and

Mr Demetriou also said - without specifying Lyon - that if any coach expected commitment of their players and expected them to follow certain values … if they didn't act in same way, "it sort of reeks of hypocrisy".

[Face Your Demons 175]

I don't agree with what Lyon has done or what Freo did. But you have to give R Lyon a tip of the hat for how he pulled it off.

[baysidedave 246]

I don't agree with what Lyon has done or what Freo did. But you have to give R Lyon a tip of the hat for how he pulled it off.

What lying threw his teeth is a good thing, we've been getting stuck into $cummy for doing the same thing.

[Jesse Christ 2,884]

Mark Harvey was the patsy in all of this. Feel for the poor guy.

It could have all been handled with a little more dignity and grace.. but in the end everyone's happy. Except Harvey that is.

[Guest Jack Donaghy]

The more I think about it, the more I understand why it was done as it was.

Lyon wanted to move on.

He had to put up with a lot of crap leading into the 2011 season, but couldn't leave then & there, because it would look like he was jumping ship when things got tough.

Freo obviously got wind of him being unhappy and had decided Harvey wasn't the coach to take them forward.

They circumvented his management out of necessity, because they would have tipped off Harvey otherwise.

It may have been a case of "we want Lyon, but if we can't have him, we're willing to stick with Harvey until we find better elsewhere".

Not so different to our supporters wanting Malthouse signed before Bailey even got the axe.

The hypocrisy, of it being ok for a club to move on a coach with a year remaining on his contract, but a coach not being able to leave a club (when an exit clause is present also), is palpable.

You have to feel for Harvey, but if Freo showed their hand, they could've faced fierce competition for his services.

The saints will survive. Not sure the players will be too please with RL though.

And I can see how Freo's approach appealed to RL - like him, they were willing to do whatever it took to succeed in their goal, and accept the consequences, even if it meant pissing off half the league.

The single-minded focus is RL's ethos.

[Face Your Demons 175]

What lying threw his teeth is a good thing, we've been getting stuck into $cummy for doing the same thing.

Didnt say it was good. In fact i suggested that we check $cully DNA for a bit of Lyons.

[Nascent 9,283]

The more I think about it, the more I understand why it was done as it was.

Lyon wanted to move on.

He had to put up with a lot of crap leading into the 2011 season, but couldn't leave then & there, because it would look like he was jumping ship when things got tough.

Freo obviously got wind of him being unhappy and had decided Harvey wasn't the coach to take them forward.

They circumvented his management out of necessity, because they would have tipped off Harvey otherwise.

It may have been a case of "we want Lyon, but if we can't have him, we're willing to stick with Harvey until we find better elsewhere".

Not so different to our supporters wanting Malthouse signed before Bailey even got the axe.

The hypocrisy, of it being ok for a club to move on a coach with a year remaining on his contract, but a coach not being able to leave a club (when an exit clause is present also), is palpable.

You have to feel for Harvey, but if Freo showed their hand, they could've faced fierce competition for his services.

The saints will survive. Not sure the players will be too please with RL though.

And I can see how Freo's approach appealed to RL - like him, they were willing to do whatever it took to succeed in their goal, and accept the consequences, even if it meant pissing off half the league.

The single-minded focus is RL's ethos.

Listening to SEN last night, I got the impression that it was Ross Lyon who approached Fremantle 4 - 5 weeks ago (with both clubs in finals contention). I believe the words to the effect were "...freemantle got an offer to good to refuse." Of course this is just hearsay. The press conferences from both St Kilda, Freemantle and Ross Lyon should be interesting, although I suspect we will be none the wiser of how events truely transpired.

[H_T 3,049]

These two quotes caught my attention:

"I think people are entitled to ask questions about issues of commitment (and) integrity," he said.

and

Mr Demetriou also said - without specifying Lyon - that if any coach expected commitment of their players and expected them to follow certain values … if they didn't act in same way, "it sort of reeks of hypocrisy".

I feel ill reading these comments on integrity. Because they come from Demetriou.

[Juicebox 628]

AD feels he has the right to question another mans integrity and commitment?!?

I pictured him to be licking his lips and rubbing his grubby hands together throughout the whole Tom $cully saga! You know what they say about people in glass houses...

[Maldonboy38 6,406]

This issue has got under my skin in a big way. In my mind's eye, I see those black and white TV images of the Red Fox Norm Smith being interviewed and saying, "I'm Melbourne, through and through". The MFC at the time thought centralised control was more important than integrity. Horrible event.

I don't mind a coach or player negotiating outside their management because I am convinced that most leaking of sport stories comes from player/coach managers in order to build currency in their "product".

I don't mind a club like Freo speaking to Lyon, and offering him a huge deal.

But I hate, really hate, that a coach can be in team meetings post season, in front of media, speaking to Board members to whom he is accountable and give every indication that he is staying, begin to plan 2012 when it is deliberately misleading. We have all been to a job interview while continuing to work for our current employer; but to deliberatley mislead - horrible.

What about all that stuff with Luke Ball?

How can R Lyon look Riewoldt in the eye and talk about leadership, integrity, perseverance etc...

But worse than all this is the treatment of Mark Harvey. He is an unusual man and a poor media performer. But I think he has done an amazing job at Freo. But even if he was a poor coach, to have no idea he was going to be sacked and all the officials meeting with him and discussing players for 2012, while they were plannig his demise - really poor form. In the words of Derryn Hnch - shame, shame, shame.

AFL is a tough, competitive, professional environment and none of us want to see this edginess diminish. However, call me old fashioned, but some honour among men would be nice for a change.

.

[Nascent 9,283]

AD feels he has the right to question another mans integrity and commitment?!?

I pictured him to be licking his lips and rubbing his grubby hands together throughout the whole Tom $cully saga! You know what they say about people in glass houses...

Yes, I thought there was bit of irony in his comments. Although the fact both Lyon and Harvey had a year to run on their contracts differentiate it from the Scully saga. On a side note, Scully must be pleased being yesterdays news and out of the media spotlight just 3 days after his defection

[Deesciple 10]

Let's look at the facts here from each party's perspective.

Fremantle Board:

1. Were dissatisfied with Mark Harvey (rightly or wrongly) and were looking for alternatives to replace him.

2. Have contacted Ross Lyon personally, to avoid creating a conflict of interest with Craig Kelly.

3. Have succeeded in getting replacing a coach with the absolute minimum of disruption.

Ross Lyon:

1. Was in contact with Fremantle directly, to avoid creating a conflict of interest with Craig Kelly.

2. Has clearly weighed up his options and determined that the offer by Fremantle is in his best interests.

Craig Kelly:

1. Ross Lyon did you a favour mate. How could you be involved in that scenario. Don't be a tool.

Loyalty and trust is a 2-way street. I have no issue with what Ross Lyon has done. Look what happened to Mark Harvey, he was completely blind sided by the Fremantle Board. Who's to say that Ross shouldn't be concerned about his security at St Kilda? Half a bad season and you're out the door these days. It's [censored]. Ross Lyon has to look after Ross Lyon. There is no loyalty in football. The fact that this was played out completely discreetly and out of the prying eyes of the media should be commended. I feel sorry for Mark Harvey, but he receives his payout for the remainder of the contract. That's the life of a coach.

[Nascent 9,283]

This issue has got under my skin in a big way. In my mind's eye, I see those black and white TV images of the Red Fox Norm Smith being interviewed and saying, "I'm Melbourne, through and through". The MFC at the time thought centralised control was more important than integrity. Horrible event.

I don't mind a coach or player negotiating outside their management because I am convinced that most leaking of sport stories comes from player/coach managers in order to build currency in their "product".

I don't mind a club like Freo speaking to Lyon, and offering him a huge deal.

But I hate, really hate, that a coach can be in team meetings post season, in front of media, speaking to Board members to whom he is accountable and give every indication that he is staying, begin to plan 2012 when it is deliberately misleading. We have all been to a job interview while continuing to work for our current employer; but to deliberatley mislead - horrible.

What about all that stuff with Luke Ball?

How can R Lyon look Riewoldt in the eye and talk about leadership, integrity, perseverance etc...

But worse than all this is the treatment of Mark Harvey. He is an unusual man and a poor media performer. But I think he has done an amazing job at Freo. But even if he was a poor coach, to have no idea he was going to be sacked and all the officials meeting with him and discussing players for 2012, while they were plannig his demise - really poor form. In the words of Derryn Hnch - shame, shame, shame.

AFL is a tough, competitive, professional environment and none of us want to see this edginess diminish. However, call me old fashioned, but some honour among men would be nice for a change.

.

+1 on all points

[nutbean 8,838]

So you would call into question Ross Lyons integrity but every club that has the backroom meetings to discuss the coach's future and then fire him before the end of contract is fine ?

"the coach has the full support of the board" means pack your bags son, you are done and dusted.

Clubs for many a year have been sacking coaches and many on this board called for Baileys sacking last year with one and half years on his contract without batting an eyelid. As soon as coach does the same thing to ensure his long term financial security we call his integrity into question.

The question is where you set the bar on integrity for both club and coach as the clubs have been acting without integrity when it comes to coaches for years and it is accepted practice - clubs have been doing what is in the best interests of the club and now Ross Lyon has done what is in the best interests of Ross Lyon.

[Guest Jack Donaghy]

Tell me, if Ross Lyon had have come to MFC, would it generate the same reaction?

No?

Because it was rumoured?

No?

Then what is the difference?

He took Harvey's coaching position?

Well, I think that falls on Fremantle.

And I'm pretty sure coaches get blindsided with a year to run on their contracts quite frequently.

I mean, I don't really have an issue with RL not going through his management.

I can see clear reasons why he wouldn't have.

He's burnt a few bridges, but beyond that, I think what he did was ok.

[Nascent 9,283]

So you would call into question Ross Lyons integrity but every club that has the backroom meetings to discuss the coach's future and then fire him before the end of contract is fine ?

"the coach has the full support of the board" means pack your bags son, you are done and dusted.

Clubs for many a year have been sacking coaches and many on this board called for Baileys sacking last year with one and half years on his contract without batting an eyelid. As soon as coach does the same thing to ensure his long term financial security we call his integrity into question.

The question is where you set the bar on integrity for both club and coach as the clubs have been acting without integrity when it comes to coaches for years and it is accepted practice - clubs have been doing what is in the best interests of the club and now Ross Lyon has done what is in the best interests of Ross Lyon.

I have no problem with clubs sacking coaches if it’s in the best interest of the club. Likewise I have no problem with Ross Lyon securing his future with a better deal if he goes about it the appropriate way. Incidentally, I have no knowledge to how this deal was done, so I'm reserving judgment for the time being.

But.... if media reports are to be believed, while still coaching St Kilda to another finals series Ross Lyon contacted Freemantle and started negotiating a deal that would ultimately see Mark Harvey become unemployed.

Is it acceptable to actively get a fellow colleague sacked for a pay rise?

However this is all hearsay and the truth will likely never be known rendering everything I’m saying moot.

[Maldonboy38 6,406]

Even if MFC had recruited Lyon this way I would feel the same. No one disagrees with coaches being sacked if it is required, or coaches looking at other options. But don't look people in the eye saying, "yeah I want to coach", or "yes, you have full support of the Board" etc...

People have to have the guts and integrity to say what they are thinking and planning. Lyon needed to say to the Saints "I am listneing to other offers"

Freo had to say to Harvey "we have these problems with your coaching" and then give him time to implement the changes.

But this clandestine, lying, in-your-face, brazen spin is an insult to all those people kept in the dark by the creative planning of others. If you haven't got the guts to speak and act according to your plans, leave it someone who has.

.

[nutbean 8,838]

Is it acceptable to actively get a fellow colleague sacked for a pay rise?

Clubs have to fire coaches so they can get a (perceived) better coach

Coach goes to another club where they have to fire their coach for him to get a better gig.

Same same - whats good for the clubs is good for the coaches - two can play that game - Malcolm Blight 16 games into a contract - bye bye.

If all is to be believed, then it could have been handled a lot better by Ross signalling earlier that he was off. And Freo releasing Harvey earlier ( if it was a done deal a while back) but it just continues the trend of ruthlessness in the AFL.

[old dee 23,872]

This issue has got under my skin in a big way. In my mind's eye, I see those black and white TV images of the Red Fox Norm Smith being interviewed and saying, "I'm Melbourne, through and through". The MFC at the time thought centralised control was more important than integrity. Horrible event.

I don't mind a coach or player negotiating outside their management because I am convinced that most leaking of sport stories comes from player/coach managers in order to build currency in their "product".

I don't mind a club like Freo speaking to Lyon, and offering him a huge deal.

But I hate, really hate, that a coach can be in team meetings post season, in front of media, speaking to Board members to whom he is accountable and give every indication that he is staying, begin to plan 2012 when it is deliberately misleading. We have all been to a job interview while continuing to work for our current employer; but to deliberatley mislead - horrible.

What about all that stuff with Luke Ball?

How can R Lyon look Riewoldt in the eye and talk about leadership, integrity, perseverance etc...

But worse than all this is the treatment of Mark Harvey. He is an unusual man and a poor media performer. But I think he has done an amazing job at Freo. But even if he was a poor coach, to have no idea he was going to be sacked and all the officials meeting with him and discussing players for 2012, while they were plannig his demise - really poor form. In the words of Derryn Hnch - shame, shame, shame.

AFL is a tough, competitive, professional environment and none of us want to see this edginess diminish. However, call me old fashioned, but some honour among men would be nice for a change.

.

I agree totally Maldonboy but perhaps we long for a time long guy mate.

It seems in all areas of lfe now that the ends justifys the means.

We have a lying PM

We have leaders of industry that do not give a stuff about anything but there share options and multi miilion dollar bonus.

We have people like Mr. Sandilands with no taste and very low morals getting huge amounts to front TV and Radio shows.

So why would the AFL be any different.

It is sad that the world has gone this way. There are days when I could easily drop out.

However I have a daughter and son in law that do not think that way

And a grand daughter that I have to help guide.

That keeps me going!

All the others can go jump!

[rpfc 28,779]

The guy should have quit last Monday.

That would have been enough.

Saints have their answer because he tells his reps he's not interested in an extension.

Freo can extricate themselves from Harvey, not ideal scenario but firing a coach is never smooth.

Lyon moves to Freo.

What is most galling is that he knew his reps were organising a contract with St Kilda. He should have put a stop to that ages ago (or at least a week).

[Guest Jack Donaghy]

GREAT press conference.

That was fantastic.

Had everything.

Media vultures attacking Lyon, Rosich and Smith.

Ross Lyon savaging journos asking poor questions.

I loved it.

[Face Your Demons 175]

The man should go into politics, very good at lying.not for the money etc.Claims the freo went after him not other way around.

[Choko 493]

GREAT press conference.

That was fantastic.

Had everything.

Media vultures attacking Lyon, Rosich and Smith.

Ross Lyon savaging journos asking poor questions.

I loved it.

Was fantastic.

I thought that both the Dockers and Ross acquitted themselves superbly.

Ross was very harsh on Harvey, but equally, you get the impression that if the same happened to him, he would be similarly circumspect.

Other than that, Ross exercised an option, Saints didn't lock him in early enough, and the dockers took their opportunity.

The one hole in it all that wasn't explored by the journos (who were venomous in their tone!) was that Rosich said everyone's contracts were honoured. Harvey was paid out, but it's not true to say that his contract was honoured, unless the new definition of honoured is paid out.

[Jesse Christ 2,884]

Link?

And I've been made redundant and paid out in the past- it hurts and feels like a betrayal. Try telling Harvey his contract was honoured.

Integrity in football is diminishing. And bloody fast.

I want (if it hasn't happened already) the MFC to take a leaf out of Freo's book and go after MM by any means possible. Diplomacy is dead!

[Face Your Demons 175]

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