Bailey's Lament

[Guest 36DD]

For what reason? are you serious? why has nobody else commented on this?

Great player will never captain, has enough troubles motivating himself

I said it could go either way, could payoff bigtime but is not without inherent risks.

I really rate him, he often plays well when others dont.

[Jaded No More 68,867]

I said it could go either way, could payoff bigtime but is not without inherent risks.

I really rate him, he often plays well when others dont.

And he just as often disappears when the heat is on.

He was OK today, but he is no captain.

There is so much more to captaincy than just your on field heroics. You have to represent your club at all times. Think about Sylvia and where he has been, and now work out why he ain't no captaincy material. Beamer is, to a lesser extent, in the same boat.

[Guest 36DD]

And he just as often disappears when the heat is on.

He was OK today, but he is no captain.

There is so much more to captaincy than just your on field heroics. You have to represent your club at all times. Think about Sylvia and where he has been, and now work out why he ain't no captaincy material. Beamer is, to a lesser extent, in the same boat.

And that is the exact same thinking that has seen us end up with green.

[Deano74 156]

Green was the best choice right now. Hes just happens to be playing the worse football of his career.

[warren dean 193]

Brent Moloney, every day of the week.

Moloney is a flat-track bully, I'm afraid. He has beaten up on the juvenile midfields with Jamar pushing it down his throat, but in our three worst efforts for the year (Hawthorn, WCE and today) he has been AWOL. Swallow spanked him today!

[Cheesy D. Pun 1,762]

Davey hasnt averaged higher than around 74% kicking efficiency his whole career.... does some nice things but will fluff it also, this year isnt the one i would use as an example either

Where is that statistic?

I ask that question, not in disagreement but would love to check out some other players stats.

[Cheesy D. Pun 1,762]

Moloney is a flat-track bully, I'm afraid. He has beaten up on the juvenile midfields with Jamar pushing it down his throat, but in our three worst efforts for the year (Hawthorn, WCE and today) he has been AWOL. Swallow spanked him today!

My god! If you were to take this website as gospel, you would assume that every player is useless. The truth is, even in a team that loses every single game, 1-2 players at least, are having great seasons. Brent Moloney is one of them. He worked extremely hard today and you can't ask much more than that. He was beaten and Swallow did a good job tagging him but he wasn't overly damaging himself.

Ah well, what can you do - anyway, who's next??

[spurs-r-us 0]

G'day fellas. Used to post around here a few years back, but you can consider me a newbie. Known as Balennon37 around bigfooty if anyone browses

On the topic of Green: I certainly feel as though he's really been thrown into a job that was always JMac's or Bruce's. To see Junior dumped after a fantastic year and Bruce walk, i'm not sure he expected to become the most experienced player at the club over night.

I was enraged with him today, but i've had a few hours to calm down since I got home from the game and will give him a few more weeks to ease in.

To the OP: I can't think of a worse example of a player in our older/middle aged brigade to give the captaincy to than Colin Sylvia. Brilliant in every sense of the word, but doesn't show it. He's starting to play a good quarter or game every once in a while and living off that for a month before rinsing and repeating it again.

[spurs-r-us 0]

Moloney is a flat-track bully, I'm afraid. He has beaten up on the juvenile midfields with Jamar pushing it down his throat, but in our three worst efforts for the year (Hawthorn, WCE and today) he has been AWOL. Swallow spanked him today!

Need to disagree. Moloney is an incredibly talented footballer, most midfielders in the comp would struggle with Martin in the ruck full time.

How would Jobe Watson be playing this year without Hille and Bellchambers?

[titan_uranus 24,979]

Need to disagree. Moloney is an incredibly talented footballer, most midfielders in the comp would struggle with Martin in the ruck full time.

How would Jobe Watson be playing this year without Hille and Bellchambers?

Fair comment, but I was still disappointed with Moloney's output today. It's not all about clearances, not all of Moloney's possessions last week came directly from Jamar.

[Real Demon 232]

I sat near the interchange bench today, and watched Green closely for a good 20 minute period, which was around the time North had just taken the lead, and were starting to pull away on the scoreboard.

He continued to return to his wing like he was just any other player.......no screams of encouragement, directing traffic, swapping into the middle etc.

Very disappointing to see.

I left the game thinking our captain really should only be one of Moloney or Jamar.

Green has been a great player, but seems to struggle to know what to do as captain on field.

[daisycutter 29,605]

Fair comment, but I was still disappointed with Moloney's output today. It's not all about clearances, not all of Moloney's possessions last week came directly from Jamar.

and there is such a thing as sharking off the opposition rucks. Its not rocket science, rucks aren't that precise

surely they can play horses for courses. they could do it the first quarter then they got "comfortable" and fell into a coma

as i mentioned in another thread a huge lack of footy brains today (among other things too)

[Guest Thomo]

The current coaching staff have had four years to teach, groom and build leadership from within the playing group, or find it externally. It's not Greens fault that he is the best of a bad bunch, it's another failure by the MFC.

[Ned 156]

Another thing I noticed last week was he missed the opportunity to give the ball to Petterd and Bate so they could kick goals. Furthermore, when Petterd kicked his first of the third quarter, Green was 10 metres away from Petterd's set shot, when Petterd kicked the goal, Green did not go over to him and pat him on the back or to gee him up, he simply turned around and ran to the wing ready for the next bounce. That is not leadership, fair to say I was shocked by it.

Twice he failed to pass on to the guy in the goal square. Petterd and Bate earlier. I was pretty taken aback too. I think he's fine as captain though. We don't have anyone else at the moment. You can't put a pisshead in charge of the team. Great player and bloke but leave him as the spiritual leader.

[Ron Burgundy 8,584]

G'day fellas. Used to post around here a few years back, but you can consider me a newbie. Known as Balennon37 around bigfooty if anyone browses

On the topic of Green: I certainly feel as though he's really been thrown into a job that was always JMac's or Bruce's. To see Junior dumped after a fantastic year and Bruce walk, i'm not sure he expected to become the most experienced player at the club over night.

I was enraged with him today, but i've had a few hours to calm down since I got home from the game and will give him a few more weeks to ease in.

To the OP: I can't think of a worse example of a player in our older/middle aged brigade to give the captaincy to than Colin Sylvia. Brilliant in every sense of the word, but doesn't show it. He's starting to play a good quarter or game every once in a while and living off that for a month before rinsing and repeating it again.

I think pretty well every astute Demons supporter felt that the decision to let James McDonald go was the wrong one. And that's not with the benefit of hindsight - it was felt by most at the time. It was also handled extremely poorly, and rather naively, by the club.

The consequences of that decision are being played out now. We lack senior on-field leadership and I often get the feeling that:

- the senior players and the coach don't get on that well (partly due to Bailey's handling of Junior, Bruce, Robbo etc); and

- the senior players and the rest of the list are quite disconnected (principally due to age and the senior players' relationships already being very established - and the rest of the list essentially being new kids on the block, not only in AFL terms but in life).

For some reason, Junior seemed able to bridge these areas. The younger players seemed to love having him around (struck me as quite a selfless, though hugely experienced, clubman), and this translated into being a great mentor to the younger players (which is the majority of the list). He also had the respect of the senior players, so could readily have them toe the line with the coaching staff (if required). (This is all based on my observation from afar, and obviously I could be entirely wrong.)

That said, Bailey has acknowledged that he didn't handle the James McDonald situation well. In fairness, I think it would've been a very difficult decision for him to make - and, in good faith, he carried it out, presumably in what he perceived at the time to be the best interests of the club. The easy course would surely have been to simply give Junior another year.

In short, I don't think Bailey appreciated the intangibles James McDonald brought to the role of Captain. He was a bloody good player, but his importance to the list was as much off-field as on-field - and I think Bailey focused only on the on-field, particularly in terms of the effect his retention would have on game time to the younger players. Clearly a mistake.

BUT I don't believe Bailey should be castigated for this. It was a tough decision. He didn't shirk it. And he made it in what he believed to be the best interests of the club at the time.

And, as an aside, the reason we didn't beat North - and why our season is now likely in tatters - is because we don't have a competitive ruckman. All our eggs were in the Jamar nest, which, whilst a bloody good nest, is no good if he gets injured. That's exactly why we recruited Campbell - as Jamar insurance. Again, not really Bailey's fault. Just an incredibly poor situation to be in.

Go Demons!

[Guest Thomo]

I think pretty well every astute Demons supporter felt that the decision to let James McDonald go was the wrong one. And that's not with the benefit of hindsight - it was felt by most at the time. It was also handled extremely poorly, and rather naively, by the club.

The consequences of that decision are being played out now. We lack senior on-field leadership and I often get the feeling that:

- the senior players and the coach don't get on that well (partly due to Bailey's handling of Junior, Bruce, Robbo etc); and

-

I thought at the time, and I still do, moving McDonald on was the right decision. When a player in his thirties takes six weeks to get over a one week hamstring injury it's time to go.

As far as Bailey getting on with the players, I don't think that should be an issue. A coach should be respected, not liked, the two are mutually exclusive.

However I don' think Bailey is the man for the job.

[Sir Why You Little 36,989]

I thought at the time, and I still do, moving McDonald on was the right decision. When a player in his thirties takes six weeks to get over a one week hamstring injury it's time to go.

As far as Bailey getting on with the players, I don't think that should be an issue. A coach should be respected, not liked, the two are mutually exclusive.

However I don' think Bailey is the man for the job.

i agree on McDonald, it was time to step aside, his presence would not have fixed this seasons problems. This Club has been flaky for decades, it goes way deeper than Junior Mac.

[Cheesy D. Pun 1,762]

I think pretty well every astute Demons supporter felt that the decision to let James McDonald go was the wrong one. And that's not with the benefit of hindsight - it was felt by most at the time. It was also handled extremely poorly, and rather naively, by the club.

The consequences of that decision are being played out now. We lack senior on-field leadership and I often get the feeling that:

- the senior players and the coach don't get on that well (partly due to Bailey's handling of Junior, Bruce, Robbo etc); and

- the senior players and the rest of the list are quite disconnected (principally due to age and the senior players' relationships already being very established - and the rest of the list essentially being new kids on the block, not only in AFL terms but in life).

For some reason, Junior seemed able to bridge these areas. The younger players seemed to love having him around (struck me as quite a selfless, though hugely experienced, clubman), and this translated into being a great mentor to the younger players (which is the majority of the list). He also had the respect of the senior players, so could readily have them toe the line with the coaching staff (if required). (This is all based on my observation from afar, and obviously I could be entirely wrong.)

That said, Bailey has acknowledged that he didn't handle the James McDonald situation well. In fairness, I think it would've been a very difficult decision for him to make - and, in good faith, he carried it out, presumably in what he perceived at the time to be the best interests of the club. The easy course would surely have been to simply give Junior another year.

In short, I don't think Bailey appreciated the intangibles James McDonald brought to the role of Captain. He was a bloody good player, but his importance to the list was as much off-field as on-field - and I think Bailey focused only on the on-field, particularly in terms of the effect his retention would have on game time to the younger players. Clearly a mistake.

BUT I don't believe Bailey should be castigated for this. It was a tough decision. He didn't shirk it. And he made it in what he believed to be the best interests of the club at the time.

And, as an aside, the reason we didn't beat North - and why our season is now likely in tatters - is because we don't have a competitive ruckman. All our eggs were in the Jamar nest, which, whilst a bloody good nest, is no good if he gets injured. That's exactly why we recruited Campbell - as Jamar insurance. Again, not really Bailey's fault. Just an incredibly poor situation to be in.

Go Demons!

It's good to see some calm and rational thought on this website. Agree wholeheartedly.

[bananas 428]

All of our senior players (with the possible exception of 2010/11 era Mark Jamar) are downhill skiers to a certain extent. Every one of them. Green. Davey. Sylvia. Moloney. Hell, I'll even throw Rivers in there. There's not one of those guys who can impose his will on a game when the side isn't playing well.

I want Jamar to enter the captaincy conversation, because he's been immense this last year and a half. Otherwise, it's all about waiting for one of Frawley, Grimes, Trengove, Scully (what can I say, I'm an optimist) or McKenzie to put his hand up and take the job on.

[Deano74 156]

I sat near the interchange bench today, and watched Green closely for a good 20 minute period, which was around the time North had just taken the lead, and were starting to pull away on the scoreboard.

He continued to return to his wing like he was just any other player.......no screams of encouragement, directing traffic, swapping into the middle etc.

Very disappointing to see.

I left the game thinking our captain really should only be one of Moloney or Jamar.

Green has been a great player, but seems to struggle to know what to do as captain on field.

im surprised and disappointed to hear your comment. As a leader he should be the biggest voice on the park, so if he done as you suggest then hes the wrong bloke. To me a the perfect captain is a Brett Kirk (Re former swan). Gave his all and was a massive voice. So my question is, Who is the biggest encourager on the ground

???

[Demon Dynasty 17,109]

Will the real Demons please stand up?

Given so many injuries early and so many outs beforehand, this was always gonna be a tall order to bring home the bacon.

However, yet again, it's the way in which we lost that cuts to the core. No real stand out pride for this club, not guts, no willingness to say "Bring it on Fellas, and we'll give it back in spades". Just a half backed effort from some, with a few odd players giving it a pretty hard go in spurts, and the rest getting blown away when under half decent/reasonable pressure.

Don’t get me wrong, there were admirable efforts at times from a few individuals like Jones, Watts, Chip, Maric, Juice etc. But where was the overall team effort from last week? The press up when the ball was in our half? The attack at the footy/ball carrier, numbers at the ball, pressure/tackling in our forward 50 (apart from juice early on…when he was left there) , intensity etc etc from last week?

And this against an average to below average opposition (to this point). Yet again, a poorly rated opposition somehow finds a way to play itself into decent form.....against us. Only one win prior to us and that was against Port (on the road) who, if not for Brisbane’s lame start also, would now be holding up the rest of the ladder. Port having only beaten Adelaide this year (at home obviously) and losing to GCS, as we all know.

Our structure (through the spine) and match-ups appeared to be working in the first half of that first quarter with Juice up forward, Martin in the middle and Chip leading the charge down back. All appeared well. Yet……out of left field, we move juice into the ruck where IMO he has no idea, then down back (ok he was probably on the ball), then up forward again?? All in the space of the last 10 – 12 minutes? IMO if it aint broke don’t fix it. We were humming. Ok Martin needed a break at some point. But have enough confidence to back your mids to get their share of the pill from the chop outs or opponents ruck work, and clear it and force it forward.

Alternatively, at least back them to put enough heat on the opposition and intensity at the ball carrier, to force our fair share of turnovers and possibly more stoppages mid field and around the ground. Where again we have another chance to gain possession, push forward and/or force another stoppage.

Instead, what do we get? Bailey (and coaching staff) either panicked or had such a rigid/fixed game that they just had to stick to it, moving juice out of the forward line no matter what was happening up forward or on the scoreboard!

Surely we didn’t need to stop what WE were doing well and change it to offset Goldstein or North’s impact at that point? Or was I imagining things, including the scoreboard turning over in our favour every few minutes? North weren’t having any impact at that point. We had them worrying about us up forward and to some degree through the middle with Martin more than coping. And it showed eg., the frustrated slap on Newton resulting in 50 metres resulting in a certain goal. We HAD the momentum!

Call me an ignoramus. I’m sure some will can me for this thread as i’m writing angry right now (and I’ve had a few frothies to try n drown the sorrows in). But I just don’t get Bailey (and the FD) at this point. I can’t see or grasp what it is he’s trying to do with this group of players any more, and apart from last week, haven’t been able to all year. As each loss arises, apparently against any team that’s willing to play more than one half of tough, hard-nosed contested (in many cases man on man) footy, I become more and more despondent with the direction, or lack thereof, that he’s sending our boys down.

And as for leadership. After watching the game today (and reading through your comments here, listening to the experts on radio, player interviews, coach etc), I gotta say….we appear to have NO one who’s willing to stand tall…week after week…when the heat is really on. All teams have their days when most players are off and they cop the occasional towelling. Happy to except and factor that in. But we are beyond that now I’m afraid. As some have mentioned here already….it’s something ingrained in this Club. Whatever this culture is, it isn’t one that’s going to see us wining consistently going forward.

I’ve seen enough this year. I love Greeny and his contribution in the past has been sterling for this club and he’s to be commended. I did say he was a champion (for this club). I was incorrect. He plays star games and great games on occasions as an individual. And he has shown leadership and great courage on many occasions. But… he’s no leader of men, or at least I don’t think this group believes he is. And he certainly doesn’t play mid field well. He looks lost and he’s chasing tails far too often. Half back or forward is fine.

After the half time break, the players were looking every which way but at each other or whoever was chatting to them in the huddle (I’m assuming it was Greeny). They appeared as little lost sheep looking for their bo peep!

At this point I see only one potential leader. He’s the big bull in the park who the others might follow and be willing to go over the top with. Provided he’s willing and wants it. And he’s willing to put the beer swilling away and truly commit. I say you just gotta throw the dice.

IMHO Moloney is THE MAN to lead this club. He might not perform week in week out every week. And yeh he may be a bit of a flat tracker versus real quality opposition. But he has company. And who the hell else have we got at this point who will stand up for us, who intimidates the opponents, willing to take them on in a toe to toe test of strength and brute force? No, brute force alone won't win matches. But it’s sure better than rolling over like a pig in swill.

My other big concern if we keep down this patchwork path is this…..and no this isn’t my quote but I noted it some time back when I was reading BigFooty blog one day, and it’s worried me ever since.....

“Why would Tom Scully stay and play for a rabble like Melbourne when he can get paid millions to play for a rabble like GWS?....Danair, Big Footy 28 April 2011.

And if Tom goes…..i’m not even gonna finish that….it’s just too scary to contemplate.

Love or dislike Bailey, we’ve only beaten two Vic teams since his appointment. Richmond twice. And Essendon…..once. Both teams during a period when they were hitting rock bottom on the field or coming off rock bottom (sound familiar?). Bailey still has (in aggregate) the worst win/loss record of any Coach in the AFL (other than one carved out stat versus interstate clubs played here) and unless he produces some kind of miracle on the field from here, this year’s ratio is looking likely to be similar to , or possibly worse than, the lowly (but slightly improved coming off a very low base from 2009) win/loss ratio of last year.

As a result of this weeks effort, the Club is now (yet again), on a knife’s edge both Coach wise and, in many ways, player progress/development/leadership wise. I don’t feel that sacking Bailey right now is the answer either. Far from it, being too early in the season as well as having no super duper alternative in the starting blocks or willing to commence half way through a season.

But the wolves are about to bay even louder, even more so if the rot continues once we regain a few of our more valued outs in 4 - 5 weeks (hopefully). If the rot doesn’t stop shortly thereafter, and we don’t see a worthy turnaround early into the 2nd half of the season, the supporters/media will no longer be talking about the likelihood of Bailey staying or going.

The attention will quickly turn towards “who” the replacement is likely to be for 2012 and what effect, if any, the appointment will have on the likelihood of TS (and others out of contract) re-signing or moving on to real or perceived greener pastures.

P.S. I'm not even going to mention Dunn's effort in this post, nor Bailey's efforts in managing him position wise

Edited May 14, 2011 by Rusty Nails

[Guest 36DD]

IMHO Moloney is THE MAN to lead this club. He might not perform week in week out every week. And yeh he may be a bit of a flat tracker versus real quality opposition. But he has company. And who the hell else have we got at this point who will stand up for us, who intimidates the opponents, willing to take them on in a toe to toe test of strength and brute force? No, brute force alone won't win matches. But it’s sure better than rolling over like a pig in swill.

Fair effort at 4am with a few beers on board. This morning the loss hurts even more. I think we are yet to bottom out, there is still plenty of deadwood around. But the lack of leadership from established players is absolutely killing me. Green is not a leader as many have stated in this post. Read the article in The Hun this morning about J Browns facial injury, this man is a leader, god how I wish we could somehow land a player of his ilk.

[warren dean 193]

My god! If you were to take this website as gospel, you would assume that every player is useless. The truth is, even in a team that loses every single game, 1-2 players at least, are having great seasons. Brent Moloney is one of them. He worked extremely hard today and you can't ask much more than that. He was beaten and Swallow did a good job tagging him but he wasn't overly damaging himself.

Ah well, what can you do - anyway, who's next??

Never said he was useless, I said he was a flat-track bully. Argue with this if you like:

V Sydney 27 disposals; V Hawthorn 17 disposals; VBrisbane 36 disposals; V GC 32 disposals; V WCE 18 disposals; VAdelaide 31 disposals; V NM 16 disposals. Real leaders stand up against the tide. He is what he is - a solid foot soldier.

[dee-luded 2,959]

im surprised and disappointed to hear your comment. As a leader he should be the biggest voice on the park, so if he done as you suggest then hes the wrong bloke. To me a the perfect captain is a Brett Kirk (Re former swan). Gave his all and was a massive voice. So my question is, Who is the biggest encourager on the ground

???

He's the wrong choice as Captain. The cleanskins got their way again, and made him Captain. Another politically correct and seamlessly clean decision.

Edited May 15, 2011 by dee-luded

[Guest watts04]

bailey has to go

im not going again this year until he does

over watchn the pss poor effort

green has to lift, not good engh