The media and supporter hyping of Melbourne was always ridiculously over the top

[praha 11,236]

Just before the start of the 2010 season, my dad, a long time Melbourne supporter, told me we'd push for the top 8. I thought he was delusional.

He was. We were never a top 8 side in 2010, and we're still not.

But my dads opinion defines this club's supporter base; neglected and void of success.

This mentality drives delusion. But that delusional is driven by human nature: if something goes one way, it must also be able to go the other. Everything is up and down, and nothing is consistently and perfectly one way. That is a very common rule in the universe: NOTHING is perfect.

So, therefore, Melbourne cannot be perfectly crap forever. After so long being irrelevant, Melbourne fans finally see a club with direction: a new logo, new direction, new team, new jumper, new brand. It suddenly seems like we have worth again.

So, if we finish with 2 wooden spoons in 2 years, the complete opposite must be 2 flags, right? If we're down for so long, we must eventually be up, right?

Yes, that's right. It might not happen in 2 years, 5 years, 10 years, but eventually, the tide will turn and we will be back at the top.

But this club's failures have driven a somewhat romantic affiliation from the general public. People seem to want to see Melbourne succeed. The media, its fans, and many neutral supporters.

And so comes the hype.

"They are so young!"

"They are so talented!"

"They will dominate this league!"

It's sensationalism at its finest. Anyone that had Melbourne in their top 8 by seasons end didn't genuinely believe Melbourne would make the 8.

They WANTED them to make the 8. That prediction is driven by heart, not by brain.

This team is no certainty to make the 8. Who will they knock out? Carlton? Sydney? Bulldogs? Geelong? Fremantle? Adelaide? Collingwood? Hawthorn? Who will they beat for a top 8 spot? North? West Coast? Essendon?

All of the above teams, on any given day as it stands, are probably better than Melbourne.

So then I ask, why would people put a team, the 2008 AND 2009 wooden spooners, as well as a team that finished 10th (I think...) in 2010 in the top 8? What justification is there for that prediction?

If we take a look at Hawthorn, they were down and out all of 2004, 2005 and 2006. For Melbourne, that period of rebuilding is 2009, 2010 and 2011.

Always was and always will be. The club says a 5 year plan, and they mean it. A top 8 spot is aimed in 2011, but it is a complete and utter direct objective for 2012. Absolutely NO excuses.

But what about 2008? Well, we were a team filled with veteran players from the Daniher era, players that didn't quite know how to win, and had all been part of consistently bad teams. That was not a rebuilding year.

It was a culling year.

I am confident Melbourne will still win 8-12 games this year, but I will not be surprised if they don't make the finals.

Neither should any of you.

The really, really troubling thing for me is that last year's wooden spooners, as well as a team like Essendon, both seem to be ahead of Melbourne when it comes to on-field progression. Then there's Richmond, who the scare the crap out of me. Their team also looks promising ( )

What is our excuse for letting them bypass us at this stage? West Coast currently looks like a team that could be fighting for 8th spot, whereas Essendon looks like a top 6 team.

So, on one side I see progression: our best players last night probably all had played under 40 games.

On the other side, I see teams with just as much experience improving in leaps and bounds. That's what troubles me. It also troubles me that our coach is saying we need to go "back to basics".

At the end of it all, most Melbourne supporters will not be all that surprised by last night's game. I most certainly am not. That's because we have come to expect performances like that.

I didn't expect the team to stand up, nor did I expect the team to win. I expected them to be intimidated, and shown up by a young, promising side.

That's EXACTLY what happened.

Melbourne's 3rd quarter against the Hawks and 1st quarter against the Eagles have be two of the most one-sided quarters of AFL football of the year, including any quarter Gold Coast has played this year.

We were absolutely insipid. In 2008 we were dominated, but we at least had inside-50s and applied pressure where we could. This team of 2011 seems to completely switch off.

That shows signs of a team not ready for finals action.

So I am going to end this saying that I don't think Melbourne will be playing finals in 2011. And I'm not at all surprised that I think that a mere 6 weeks into the season.

It is Melbourne I'm talking about, after all.

[Rogue 585]

Yes, you're right. However, Demonland melts down after a loss at the best of times.

PS. I'm not saying this to make a dig, but if you used paragraphs your post would be much more readable.

[praha 11,236]

Yes, you're right. However, Demonland melts down after a loss at the best of times.

PS. I'm not saying this to make a dig, but if you used paragraphs your post would be much more readable.

I'm sorry :S I'm used to writing for a blog-like platform online, and we're encouraged to keep our paragraphs to 1-2 sentences for online publication. Demonland has a wide posting platform so it makes it look like really long sentences.

Anyway, Demonland seems to be melting down because of the hype, like as if everyone expected us to be playing top-4 footy. Last night was terrible and the team is better than that, but I wasn't surprised by the performance.

[Bitter but optimistic 22,220]

"I didn't expect the team to stand up, nor did I expect the team to win. I expected them to be intimidated, and shown up by a young, promising side."

Any team will get beaten by a better side - that's sport. But we as supporters/members are entitled to expect our team to "stand up" That is compete, battle, show some pride and heart. Melbourne did not stand up in any sense. It was a pathetic performance for which the team should feel ashamed.

[Choko 493]

Just before the start of the 2010 season, my dad, a long time Melbourne supporter, told me we'd push for the top 8. I thought he was delusional.

Well done on a good post.

BUT... you have contradicted yourself. You mention the teams we will not be in a position to knock out of the 8. That is conveniently putting the facts to fit your story. If Essendon was losing games, you could say the same about them. Instead, you lament how Essendon has now gone past us and is now going to knock one of the very sides we cannot knock off from the 8. How does that work?

You are jealous of Richmond. They are theoretically behind us after the Wallet era.

You say that we would be hard pressed to knock WCE off in a race for the 8. They were 2010 wooden spooners. They have apparently also gone past us. How does that happen?

The sad reality is, we have gone backwards. That's the problem. Our players are not developing as they should, and too many of our senior blokes have not had the acid put on their weaknesses.

Who has improved under Bailey this year? Martin, Tapscott (although probably natural evolution).

Who has stagnated/same weaknesses? Jones, Jetta, Bennell, Dunn, Bate, Grimes, Jurrah, Maric.

Who has gone backwards? Green, Davey, Sylvia, Morton.

Edited April 29, 2011 by Rogue
Removed the massive quote

[Curry & Beer 5,444]

We were never a top 8 side in 2010, and we're still not.

blatent revisionism

with a few rounds left we were still in the hunt for the 8

there was about 5 matches we could/should have won against good sides

to expect us to make the 8 this year was perfectly reasonable, it would only have a been a minor improvement in results, a few straight kicks even

[Rogue 585]

blatent revisionism

I disagree.

with a few rounds left we were still in the hunt for the 8

there was about 5 matches we could/should have won against good sides

How many rounds were we in the top 8 for?

to expect us to make the 8 this year was perfectly reasonable, it would only have a been a minor improvement in results, a few straight kicks even

I agree with the OP - it was more realistic to expect us to finish in the third quartile.

[Choko 493]

I agree with the OP - it was more realistic to expect us to finish in the third quartile.

Yeh - where was it more realistic for the Bombers to finish? The Eagles? Honestly, there is no point pretending like this was part of the plan. It wasn't. It isn't. We were disgusting last night. We should not have been disgusting last night. End of story.

[Curry & Beer 5,444]

I disagree.

draw

Pies -1

dogs -4

freo -11 jack watts could have put us in front with 3 minutes left

north -10 still in it with minutes left

hawks -21 yes 3 and a half goals but with 5 minutes left it was under a kick

if all those had gone our way we'd have finished on 14 wins, and guess what that would have been EQUAL FOURTH last year

Ladder at the end of round 19, one game out of the 8

Ladder # Team Pl W L D PF PA Perc Pts

1 Collingwood 19 15 3 1 2038 1445 141.04 62

2 Geelong 19 14 5 0 2124 1495 142.07 56

3 St Kilda 19 13 5 1 1668 1369 121.84 54

4 W Bulldogs 19 13 6 0 1937 1381 140.26 52

5 Fremantle 19 12 7 0 1949 1749 111.44 48

6 Carlton 19 10 9 0 1821 1702 106.99 40

7 Sydney 19 10 9 0 1701 1638 103.85 40

8 Hawthorn 19 9 9 1 1692 1635 103.49 38

9 Nth Melb 19 9 10 0 1644 1896 86.71 36

10 Melbourne 19 8 10 1 1599 1647 97.09 34

11 Adelaide 19 7 12 0 1543 1682 91.74 28

12 Essendon 19 7 12 0 1720 2038 84.40 28

13 Port Adel 19 7 12 0 1454 1868 77.84 28

14 Bris Lions 19 6 13 0 1515 1880 80.59 24

15 Richmond 19 6 13 0 1441 1955 73.71 24

16 West Coast 19 4 15 0 1551 2017 76.90 16

now, the above are simple facts, they CANNOT be disputed no matter how flawed your sense of logic is

the hype was totally warranted. we were so close to being a top8 side last year with supposedly huge improvement in us

indisputable

[Guest watts04]

its the intensity and attitude which comes from the coach and culture

look at west coast, look at essendon this year

not about a birth cert, its about the culture - words of one malthouse

[Striker475 696]

draw

Pies -1

dogs -4

freo -11 jack watts could have put us in front with 3 minutes left

north -10 still in it with minutes left

hawks -21 yes 3 and a half goals but with 5 minutes left it was under a kick

if all those had gone our way we'd have finished on 14 wins, and guess what that would have been EQUAL FOURTH last year

Ladder at the end of round 19, one game out of the 8

Ladder # Team Pl W L D PF PA Perc Pts

1 Collingwood 19 15 3 1 2038 1445 141.04 62

2 Geelong 19 14 5 0 2124 1495 142.07 56

3 St Kilda 19 13 5 1 1668 1369 121.84 54

4 W Bulldogs 19 13 6 0 1937 1381 140.26 52

5 Fremantle 19 12 7 0 1949 1749 111.44 48

6 Carlton 19 10 9 0 1821 1702 106.99 40

7 Sydney 19 10 9 0 1701 1638 103.85 40

8 Hawthorn 19 9 9 1 1692 1635 103.49 38

9 Nth Melb 19 9 10 0 1644 1896 86.71 36

10 Melbourne 19 8 10 1 1599 1647 97.09 34

11 Adelaide 19 7 12 0 1543 1682 91.74 28

12 Essendon 19 7 12 0 1720 2038 84.40 28

13 Port Adel 19 7 12 0 1454 1868 77.84 28

14 Bris Lions 19 6 13 0 1515 1880 80.59 24

15 Richmond 19 6 13 0 1441 1955 73.71 24

16 West Coast 19 4 15 0 1551 2017 76.90 16

now, the above are simple facts, they CANNOT be disputed no matter how flawed your sense of logic is

the hype was totally warranted. we were so close to being a top8 side last year with supposedly huge improvement in us

indisputable

Agree. The Dogs game should have been a win (bloody pink umpires!) and the dropped mark in the goal square vs the Filth too. Literally those two wins would have put us in 8th at that point.

[Rogue 585]

Yeh - where was it more realistic for the Bombers to finish? The Eagles? Honestly, there is no point pretending like this was part of the plan. It wasn't. It isn't. We were disgusting last night. We should not have been disgusting last night. End of story.

I didn't 'pretend it was part of the plan'. There's no need to rely on strawmen.

draw

Pies -1

dogs -4

freo -11 jack watts could have put us in front with 3 minutes left

north -10 still in it with minutes left

hawks -21 yes 3 and a half goals but with 5 minutes left it was under a kick

if all those had gone our way we'd have finished on 14 wins, and guess what that would have been EQUAL FOURTH last year

Ladder at the end of round 19, one game out of the 8

Ladder # Team Pl W L D PF PA Perc Pts

1 Collingwood 19 15 3 1 2038 1445 141.04 62

2 Geelong 19 14 5 0 2124 1495 142.07 56

3 St Kilda 19 13 5 1 1668 1369 121.84 54

4 W Bulldogs 19 13 6 0 1937 1381 140.26 52

5 Fremantle 19 12 7 0 1949 1749 111.44 48

6 Carlton 19 10 9 0 1821 1702 106.99 40

7 Sydney 19 10 9 0 1701 1638 103.85 40

8 Hawthorn 19 9 9 1 1692 1635 103.49 38

9 Nth Melb 19 9 10 0 1644 1896 86.71 36

10 Melbourne 19 8 10 1 1599 1647 97.09 34

11 Adelaide 19 7 12 0 1543 1682 91.74 28

12 Essendon 19 7 12 0 1720 2038 84.40 28

13 Port Adel 19 7 12 0 1454 1868 77.84 28

14 Bris Lions 19 6 13 0 1515 1880 80.59 24

15 Richmond 19 6 13 0 1441 1955 73.71 24

16 West Coast 19 4 15 0 1551 2017 76.90 16

now, the above are simple facts, they CANNOT be disputed no matter how flawed your sense of logic is

The fact that you're relying on us being one game outside the eight in one round seems to reinforce my recollection that we never finished a round in the eight.

the hype was totally warranted. we were so close to being a top8 side last year with supposedly huge improvement in us

indisputable

It's clearly not 'indisputable' since I and others don't - and didn't, coming into the season - agree with you.

I don't think making the eight was a 'ridiculously over the top' expectation but it certainly wasn't my expectation.

Agree. The Dogs game should have been a win (bloody pink umpires!) and the dropped mark in the goal square vs the Filth too. Literally those two wins would have put us in 8th at that point.

I'm pretty sure we had close wins that opponents would argue could have gone the other way.

[Choko 493]

draw

Pies -1

dogs -4

freo -11 jack watts could have put us in front with 3 minutes left

north -10 still in it with minutes left

hawks -21 yes 3 and a half goals but with 5 minutes left it was under a kick

if all those had gone our way we'd have finished on 14 wins, and guess what that would have been EQUAL FOURTH last year

Ladder at the end of round 19, one game out of the 8

Ladder # Team Pl W L D PF PA Perc Pts

1 Collingwood 19 15 3 1 2038 1445 141.04 62

2 Geelong 19 14 5 0 2124 1495 142.07 56

3 St Kilda 19 13 5 1 1668 1369 121.84 54

4 W Bulldogs 19 13 6 0 1937 1381 140.26 52

5 Fremantle 19 12 7 0 1949 1749 111.44 48

6 Carlton 19 10 9 0 1821 1702 106.99 40

7 Sydney 19 10 9 0 1701 1638 103.85 40

8 Hawthorn 19 9 9 1 1692 1635 103.49 38

9 Nth Melb 19 9 10 0 1644 1896 86.71 36

10 Melbourne 19 8 10 1 1599 1647 97.09 34

11 Adelaide 19 7 12 0 1543 1682 91.74 28

12 Essendon 19 7 12 0 1720 2038 84.40 28

13 Port Adel 19 7 12 0 1454 1868 77.84 28

14 Bris Lions 19 6 13 0 1515 1880 80.59 24

15 Richmond 19 6 13 0 1441 1955 73.71 24

16 West Coast 19 4 15 0 1551 2017 76.90 16

now, the above are simple facts, they CANNOT be disputed no matter how flawed your sense of logic is

the hype was totally warranted. we were so close to being a top8 side last year with supposedly huge improvement in us

indisputable

Agree - the arguments being made here cannot be sustained because no-one can convince me we were meant to go backwards this year. We may not, still, of course. Especially because of our favourable draw.

At this stage, we have gone backwards. The main reasons are:

1. Lack of improvement in individual players (as I have set out above)

2. Lack of modern game plan

[Rogue 585]

Agree - the arguments being made here cannot be sustained because no-one can convince me we were meant to go backwards this year. We may not, still, of course. Especially because of our favourable draw.

The idea that people who don't share your view are putting forward an argument that we were 'meant to go backwards this year' is a strawman: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

What 'Curry & Beer' failed to mention when regurgitating some stats from last year is how far off finals we really were. We finished 12th, 2.5 games and 14% adrift of the eight.

Thus, it's 'indisputable' that we could improve in a significant way and still miss out on finals.

[Seinfeld 40]

West Coast did tank last year. no doubt they were better than last spot. . Getting Glass back, Kerr back and fit Cox back is a BIG factor in their confidence and improvement...They are hard, classy and experienced players and its what WE lack.

And Essendon, I'm pretty sure their wins last year included quite a few teams in the top 8 (Carlton, Hawthorn, St Kilda, Western Bulldogs) ...their losses were mainly against bottom teams. So people should not be surprised on how they are going.

[Curry & Beer 5,444]

The idea that people who don't share your view are putting forward an argument that we were 'meant to go backwards this year' is a strawman: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

What 'Curry & Beer' failed to mention when regurgitating some stats from last year is how far off finals we really were. We finished 12th, 2.5 games and 14% adrift of the eight.

Thus, it's 'indisputable' that we could improve in a significant way and still miss out on finals.

IF you have 6 matches come down to the wire (meaning, you OBVIOUSLY could easily have won ALL of them)

AND you equipped yourself well against some of the best sides

AND you FLOGGED several lesser sides

AND with 3 games to play you were one game out of the 8

you were nearly a top 8 side F A C T

seriously if you are going to debate that you need to get your head checked. How could a fact be any more obvious? I mean, why do you THINK everyone in the football world was talking us up so much? Why did we start about 9th in premiership odds?

you are in DENIAL

the painful truth is that we've gone backwards. we don't have the ability to develop players from talented kids into proper senior players, a problem we have faced for a very long time. In addition to this we are soft and mentally weak, also perpetual problems. For whatever reason we cannot field 22 players that actually have the heart to win. The coach apparently having no idea what's going on has not helped, and neither has the fact that three quarters of our best players from last year have apparently decided not to have a go anymore.

I have NFI what we do from here, off-field everything has been going beautifully, but in order for our club to survive we needed the on-field to continue to traject upwards which it clearly hasn't. One thing is for sure and that is our supporters are not happy jan and it's very dangerous for the club. In 2007, we knew we had to burn the list, mine the draft and rebuild. Well we did that brilliantly but apparently having the best list in the comp still isn't enough because we are a minnow outfit with no heart. I've had it.

[Choko 493]

The idea that people who don't share your view are putting forward an argument that we were 'meant to go backwards this year' is a strawman: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

What 'Curry & Beer' failed to mention when regurgitating some stats from last year is how far off finals we really were. We finished 12th, 2.5 games and 14% adrift of the eight.

Thus, it's 'indisputable' that we could improve in a significant way and still miss out on finals.

I like strawman - learn something every day. You don't want to know what I learnt yesterday!

But seriously, the strawman is the relevance of the issue as to whether we are a top 8 side. That issue is utterly irrelevant to our performance last night. What I am saying is that we were better than that last year, and we would all presumably expect to be improving. So by "tempering" expectations and saying we are not a top 8 side, it's as if that is a justification or explanation for why we would dish up such a pile of turd last night.

[jacey 333]

AND you equipped yourself well against some of the best sides

AND you FLOGGED several lesser sides

AND with 3 games to play you were one game out of the 8

you were nearly a top 8 side

which team do WE really go for?

haha Strawman

Edited April 29, 2011 by jacey

[Curry & Beer 5,444]

which team do WE really go for?

wtf does that mean? how about contribute something meaningful or just read

[Rogue 585]

I like strawman - learn something every day. You don't want to know what I learnt yesterday!

It might drag the thread off topic, but you've got me hanging now.

But seriously, the strawman is the relevance of the issue as to whether we are a top 8 side. That issue is utterly irrelevant to our performance last night. What I am saying is that we were better than that last year, and we would all presumably expect to be improving. So by "tempering" expectations and saying we are not a top 8 side, it's as if that is a justification or explanation for why we would dish up such a pile of turd last night.

I agree with you in that even if we all agreed that expectations of some were overblown it still wouldn't justify such an insipid showing - you'll note I haven't commented on last night's game in this thread, only on expectations about our team's performance in 2011 in general. (I do think that some of the reaction to the very poor showing last night has been exaggerated by an expectation that we were going to be better than we were, though, but there are also valid concerns about our performance this season that I've raised in other threads).

IF you have 6 matches come down to the wire (meaning, you OBVIOUSLY could easily have won ALL of them)

AND you equipped yourself well against some of the best sides

AND you FLOGGED several lesser sides

AND with 3 games to play you were one game out of the 8

you were nearly a top 8 side F A C T

'Coulda, woulda, shoulda'!

In one year under ND we were top of the ladder at or just before round 19. How'd that work out for us?

seriously if you are going to debate that you need to get your head checked. How could a fact be any more obvious? I mean, why do you THINK everyone in the football world was talking us up so much? Why did we start about 9th in premiership odds?

you are in DENIAL

Not everyone talked us up so much, and certainly not everyone on here. Check the threads and you'll see a fair chunk of people shared the same view I did (and do) - that our rise wouldn't be as rapid as some hoped for.

I reckon one thing you seem to want to avoid is that we were 12th last year. Not 9th, but 12th. We were never in the top eight after a completed round and ended up 2.5 games and whopping percentage away from finals.

You've even conceded that the betting markets didn't indicate an expectation from bookmakers that we would be a top eight side in 2011.

[leucopogon 1,519]

I was at the game last night and witnessed a whitewash of epic proportions. I don't get to many games being a West Australian. The last game I saw was a preseason loss against the Dockers in early 2010. We were second to the ball, ill disciplined, sucked into contests leaving opponents free to run and receive, out-tackled, out-smarted, out-scored. Last night I saw exactly the same thing.

Conclusion = No Improvement in over 12 months of footy.

To my great surprise the team put in some gutsy performances in the home & away of 2010. Hopes were lifted that the turnaround had begun but I was never convinced. I've supported Melbourne long enough to know a false dawn when I see one. I'm at a loss to explain why we seem to have gone backwards. Is it because we lost most of our experienced players? Were Bruce and Junior that important to us? I wouldn't have thought so, and surely the younger guys would improve upon what they showed last year to pick up the slack caused by the loss of our veterans. This obviously hasn't happened.

But why?

Is it because we lost Sean Wellman as our defensive coach? Doubtful.

The only logical conclusion I can come to is that the players have lost faith in their coach. They are not executing any semblance of a winning strategy as far as I can tell. The modern-game is passing us by while we try and implement yesterday's winning formula with kids that don't have the size, skills or heart to make it work. Sure it worked last year to some extent but this forward press/zone/flood footy has gone up what seems like about 10 levels this season, and everyone seems to be on-board except us. That's down to poor preparation, poor execution, poor coaching.

The buck has to stop with the coach and his assistants. I've never been a Bailey fan, he just doesn't give me any confidence his laconical she'll be right personality is more suited to Auskick than head coaching at the highest level. I'm now absolutely itching for him to be sacked with immediate effect. Don't think it's going to happen somehow, which in my view is a great shame. Instead it looks like this imposter is set to ingrain another 3/4 of a season of bad habits and foul strategies into our youthful, impressionable list. So who is likely to coach us next season and beyond?

Malthouse? Doubt it. I think he'll go to the Blues. Their window will open up next season and he is perfectly placed to guide them to at least one flag in the next 3 years and could bow out of the coaching game on a real high. I doubt at his age he'd be interested in taking over our fragile list and dedicating at least 4 years to getting the list into its prime to have a crack at a flag.

We need a younger coach. Roos is probably the best credentialed availabe option I would guess. If he brought that South Melbourne Bloods die for your team mate spirit that his Swans of 05 & 06 had I'd be over the moon. That's just what we lack. I've seen too much spineless, insipid football from our team. I've had enough. I'd be in favour of moving heaven and earth to put him in right now. Why wait? Let's stop fooling ourselves and believing that it's all gonna magically fall into place for us when our premiership window (seems more like a premiership mirage) opens in 2013, regardless of who's coaching us. If we stick with Bailey it will never happen, I think just about everyone will agree.

It's time to stop the rot. Last night Melbourne were smashed in every position on the ground, there wasn't one man who beat his opponent I thought. It was truly embarrassing to witness. We are a laughing stock, never mind Port. Bailey and his assistants were culpable. There were no counter moves, no Plan B. We just rolled over and let them have there way with us. This is simply not good enough four years into the rebuild. The players seem to have lost the faith. Judging from recent rumblings in the media, the board seems to have lost the faith. The supporters on here have lost faith. Surely NOW is the time to act.

Bailey (and his assistants) OUT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Edited April 29, 2011 by leucopogon

[Roost It 1,434]

If we had the choice to swap bailey for Roos right now, I doubt one melbourne person would say No.

[Curry & Beer 5,444]

It might drag the thread off topic, but you've got me hanging now.

I agree with you in that even if we all agreed that expectations of some were overblown it still wouldn't justify such an insipid showing - you'll note I haven't commented on last night's game in this thread, only on expectations about our team's performance in 2011 in general. (I do think that some of the reaction to the very poor showing last night has been exaggerated by an expectation that we were going to be better than we were, though, but there are also valid concerns about our performance this season that I've raised in other threads).

'Coulda, woulda, shoulda'!

In one year under ND we were top of the ladder at or just before round 19. How'd that work out for us?

Not everyone talked us up so much, and certainly not everyone on here. Check the threads and you'll see a fair chunk of people shared the same view I did (and do) - that our rise wouldn't be as rapid as some hoped for.

I reckon one thing you seem to want to avoid is that we were 12th last year. Not 9th, but 12th. We were never in the top eight after a completed round and ended up 2.5 games and whopping percentage away from finals.

You've even conceded that the betting markets didn't indicate an expectation from bookmakers that we would be a top eight side in 2011.

yep you're right, losing by a point is the same as losing by 50, finsihing ninth is the same as finishing last, there is no such thing as a good loss even if it is to the premiers when Petterd drops a mark in the square in the last 2 seconds. You make my head hurt.

[Curry & Beer 5,444]

If we had the choice to swap bailey for Roos right now, I doubt one melbourne person would say No.

probably a fair comment

[Red Sox 2]

Just give me some effort that was there against the Lions at the 'G in 2010. Where is the chase downs like Green on Trav and the other front on crunches on display? The effort against the Dogs in the wet.

Why can't we start a game with some fire in the belly?

Stuff this hype crap. Give me something, anything!

This place goes into meltdown after a loss because after 5 minutes we are out of a supposed contest and that adrenalin needs to be used up somewhere!