Where are we REALLY at right now ??

[old55 23,541]

You forget the city of Casey....an incredible amount of potential Demon supporters out there, as long as the club keeps improving our supporter base will grow...all is not lost '55

Win a flag or two and then be GC's prime adversary which would be a big positive here in a disenchanted Victoria would be a big help.

[Sir Why You Little 37,024]

Win a flag or two and then be GC's prime adversary which would be a big positive here in a disenchanted Victoria would be a big help.

Aah yes to win flags...we will again i am sure.

[Striker475 696]

Win a flag or two and then be GC's prime adversary which would be a big positive here in a disenchanted Victoria would be a big help.

It's a good point. A Melbourne vs GC grand final everyone here would support the Dees.

[plg31ni 2]

Thanks HT for introducing some sanity to this thread. What is going on, why the panic? Improvement is rarely linear (Essendon not making the 8 last year for example, but pushing again this year - this is not all to do with Saint Hird, their improvement has been 2-3 years in the making). The club has been crystal clear we are building a foundation and the main game is 2 years away. My feeling pre season was that we wouldn't make the 8 but would be close and nothing that has occured thus far has changed that feeling.

It was a calculated gamble axing McDonald (and Yze, Robertson, Wheatley et al in previous years) and not meeting Cam Bruce’s terms. Of course in the short term this was going to hurt but it was cold, hard business and based on future pay off. As someone noted Gysbersts and Tapscott may not be in the side if not for those hardnosed calls.

I suspect the club has gone very hard in the pre season on building the core strength of our players - see the increased bulk of Bate, Martin, Newton, Morton - at the expense of aerobic capacity. Bailey has made the point on numerous occasions how important core strength is and how vital it is to winning stoppages (and how key that is). I'm not a stats man but i reckon our contested possession stats would be pretty good this year. I reckon we will improve our aerobic stuff as the year rolls on and be better able to run quarters and games out.

As for the game plan it seems to me that we are, in fact changing our style this year. Whilst still playing a spread and carry style we are clearly going 'round the boundary more and less through the corridor. He has also been playing Jamar deep more often to encourage less shallow inside 50 kicks and provide a contest near our goal. I also reckon the sub rule aligns well with our style as games seem to be breaking open more late in quarters (as is the intention of this rule change).

Bailey has also emphasised on several occasions the need for our forwards to create more pressure and i think Wonna’s relatively early call up (given his very interrupted pre season) is evidence of his focus on this. I would have thought that our current lack of pizzazz might be a direct result of trying to implement a rejigged game plan, just as we struggled early in Bailey's tenure with the Geelong style run and carry.

The Collingwood forward press? The football media (and seemingly many fans) have very short memories (and attention spans for that matter). This is just the current orthodoxy which will be replaced by something else soon enough (ie by the side other than Collingwood who next wins a flag). Half way through last season Geelong were the favourites to win the flag and at the start of the season there was criticism of the Malthouse predilection for going around the boundary line. It also a style that is 100% reliant on having a side with few injuries, particularly to key runners. Hawthorn, the Saints and Collingwood have had sustained success with it only when they have had an almost full list for the whole season. Let’s see how Essendon goes now they have lost 2 key runners.

I find it interesting that many of naysayers and doom merchants stress how long they have followed the club and how we should be delivering now. Surely the experience of watching footy over a long period teaches that only the clubs that plan well over the long term succeed. This has been the failing of Melbourne in the 30 odd years I have passionately followed the redlegs. In that time our governance has generally been an absolute shambles. This is why we haven’t been successful, not some half baked idea our fans tolerate mediocrity or our players are soft. Come on give me a break. We have had our fair share of warriors and talent but that is not enough.

Our current governance structure seems to be sound and i am confident they will make the right calls, including who should coach the team. I actually think we will push for the 8 (though as i noted not neccesarily make it) and finish the year well. I also reckon we will continue the trend of last year and play well against the top 4 teams.

Deep breathes all round and lets reassess where we at the end of the season.

Some sensible comments and some that maybe are hard to go with.. like the part : "I find it interesting that many of naysayers and doom merchants stress how long they have followed the club and how we should be delivering now. Surely the experience of watching footy over a long period teaches that only the clubs that plan well over the long term succeed."...... Only the clubs that plan well over a long term succeed ? I totally agree with that but I would ask how long do you consider a "long term" to be ... So far we are heading for half a century. If we have not delivered yet I do not consider it unreasonable to be asking when will we or will we deliver again in my lifetime. We will have a new coach before we win a flag or even make the top five or six.. Put that on the record and by all means attack me if I am wrong but acknowledge the prediction if I am right. I have followed football since the fifties and I believe I have learned to recognize a successful coach when one appears. I wish Centrebet were offering odds. I am not meaning to be smart or disloyal. I am looking at the situation as it currently appears to be. I will humbly apologize for the error of my prediction if that's the way it turns out.

[plg31ni 2]

Where are we?

Overall we're in a very good place - we've got the best list we've had in my memory. Gysberts and Tapscott have shown they are quality and Bail has found a niche. Wonna and Martin have stepped back up. Moloney, Rivers, Jones and Bartram are playing good footy. Jamar is a rock. We've got Scully and McKenzie that are automatic selections to come in. Cook and Blease are showing good signs at Casey and we've got Viney in the wings.

We've got star potential in Frawley, Scully, Trengove, Gysberts, Watts, Jurrah, Morton. I can see 25+ premiership quality players, our bottom 6 will be strong and there'll be competition for spots. We've finally got decent facilities and we can spend some money on out FD. It's going to take time and good direction but we're on the verge of an era.

Excellent thoughts Old55 and I respect your views and enthusiasm, but we need a very strong motivator and tactician to get these so called 25+ premiership quality players playing to their reputed full potential together as a "champion team" not a "team of champions" (to steal a phrase from the great Roy Cazaly)Then and only then will we see the potential become reality. Potential never wins anything.

[Bonkers 994]

I heard an interesting stat last night wathcing the Lions vs Saints from Leigh Matthews. If you win the tackle count & contested possession count you will win 85% of games. I think that stat in itself tells you a lot about football & the way it should be played.

The MFC will have to lift its defensive intensity & intensity in general to win more games. Whether this aspect is linked to the amount of experience & age I guess it is. I would assume the boys will have to get fitter & stronger basically to raise their intensity levels consistently, so you can use the excuse that the playing group is inexperienced to a certain extent. However mentally as a player you don't need 5 pre-seasons to be able to or want to tackle & win the contested ball. If we want to climb the ladder I think Bailey is going to have to instill a hunger to hunt in packs to tackle & to play harder than the opposition. For me that is what has been missing from the games I have seen this year. If the hunger has been there it has only been sporadic IMO. This sort of attitude can not be questioned from the successful teams & their coaches(Collingwood - Malthouse, Geelong - Thompson, Hawthorn - Clarkson, Sydney - Roos).

All the speculation & discussion we hear about the game plan is really inconsequential as each club that has won the flag in the last 10 years from memory has had their own game plan, which is then superseded by the next up & coming side. If we want to improve we need to first raise our intensity levels for longer periods throughout games which will come from building stronger, fitter players & also building mentally tougher players that will represent the club with pride. There is no doubt that the players have the talent, everyone has seen it when we challenged top sides last year. What has been missing tho is consistent desire & intensity from week to week. The challenge is to become mentally tougher & stronger as a club(in particular the playing group & FD). I think that is where the club is at.

[plg31ni 2]

I heard an interesting stat last night wathcing the Lions vs Saints from Leigh Matthews. If you win the tackle count & contested possession count you will win 85% of games. I think that stat in itself tells you a lot about football & the way it should be played.

The MFC will have to lift its defensive intensity & intensity in general to win more games. Whether this aspect is linked to the amount of experience & age I guess it is. I would assume the boys will have to get fitter & stronger basically to raise their intensity levels consistently, so you can use the excuse that the playing group is inexperienced to a certain extent. However mentally as a player you don't need 5 pre-seasons to be able to or want to tackle & win the contested ball. If we want to climb the ladder I think Bailey is going to have to instill a hunger to hunt in packs to tackle & to play harder than the opposition. For me that is what has been missing from the games I have seen this year. If the hunger has been there it has only been sporadic IMO. This sort of attitude can not be questioned from the successful teams & their coaches(Collingwood - Malthouse, Geelong - Thompson, Hawthorn - Clarkson, Sydney - Roos).

All the speculation & discussion we hear about the game plan is really inconsequential as each club that has won the flag in the last 10 years from memory has had their own game plan, which is then superseded by the next up & coming side. If we want to improve we need to first raise our intensity levels for longer periods throughout games which will come from building stronger, fitter players & also building mentally tougher players that will represent the club with pride. There is no doubt that the players have the talent, everyone has seen it when we challenged top sides last year. What has been missing tho is consistent desire & intensity from week to week. The challenge is to become mentally tougher & stronger as a club(in particular the playing group & FD). I think that is where the club is at.

By far the best and most sensible post I have read on the topic I originally raised.So well put together and an accurate diagnosis of where we are at right now. Our own well put together game plan would be a good start to moving a little forward. I agree 100% the players we have most certainly have the talent it's how we handle and build them. You are far from "Bonkers" as your pseudonym suggests. Well written..

[rpfc 28,381]

We smashed Sydney in contested possies, got smashed by Hawthorn, and beat the Lions and the Suns.

We were beaten in the clearances against the Swans and the Hawks and beat the Lions and the Suns.

Make of that what you will.

Personally, it's too early to make any judgements on progress in this area.

[Theo 272]

By far the best and most sensible post I have read on the topic I originally raised.So well put together and an accurate diagnosis of where we are at right now. Our own well put together game plan would be a good start to moving a little forward. I agree 100% the players we have most certainly have the talent it's how we handle and build them. You are far from "Bonkers" as your pseudonym suggests. Well written..

Excellent post. Totally agree. We have the medium sized talent however a strong bodied, stay at home forward would also help along with a strong bodied/marking key back to help out Frawley, Rivers and Garland. My wish list would also be a running back ala Whelan, Nathan Brown or Peter Walsh type that can break the lines and take the game on. I think we are somewhat stagnant in the back half at present.

[Guest Gotzy15]

Sorry, but we have been listening to similar types of scenarios and "excuses" as these for faaaaaar tooooo looong !!! It's good you are such a dedicated supporter of the club and are trying hard to convince yourself and others that your points are legitimate, BUT we do not have anymore acceptable excuses left in the bag of excuses...Simple as that !!! 1964 Last Premiership... Please !!!!! If we keep accepting mediocrity and half hearted performances then we are just as at fault as the FD and people who over the years have failed us so badly...NO more why we shouldn't be expected to make the finals.. I have heard this for too long. We have had everything "go our way" with draft picks etc and favourable draws THIS year in particular. Why are some of our long term supporters so accepting of these past failures ???. As I stated earlier, Why have teams like Sydney, St Kilda, Western Bulldogs, Hawthorn, etc etc. been in similar situations an flownd past us to play in finals and made us look "second Rate?

' Let's be brutally honest with ourselves PLEASE !!! We have the best list we have had for years and we MUST do something with it... !!! Believe me, I LOVE THE MELBOURNE FOOTBALL CLUB, but I cannot accept any more comments like "we will develop into a finals contender in 2013" Give me a break !!!It will NOT happen if we do NOT make a bigger effort this year. We are in the 8 !!! Big Deal !! We beat Brisbane, Gold Coast and drew with the Swans.. We HAVE to beat better teams. We have to win 3 of the next 4 games or we are BACK where we have been for years !! I am very passionate about that !!

THANK YOU!!!!! Finally we have someone on here who has written something constructive and straight to the point and cut out all the standard bulls**t that we keep feeding ourselves. plg31ni i couldnt have said it any better if i tried its like youre speaking from my heart. Everytime i get on here and put the acid on our players or us as a team i get a bunch of hungry wolves

jumping all over me. You raise some fantastic points and yes i dont know about the rest of you but im sick of all this mediocrity & i believe 4 years is quite some time to rebuild. 2010 was our year to get games into young players, learn to play together as a team and understand the gameplan and structures. Im not expecting a finals win this year but making the 8 is certainly the bare minimum pass.

[plg31ni 2]

THANK YOU!!!!! Finally we have someone on here who has written something constructive and straight to the point and cut out all the standard bulls**t that we keep feeding ourselves. plg31ni i couldnt have said it any better if i tried its like you're speaking from my heart. Everytime i get on here and put the acid on our players or us as a team i get a bunch of hungry wolves

jumping all over me. You raise some fantastic points and yes i dont know about the rest of you but I'm sick of all this mediocrity & i believe 4 years is quite some time to rebuild. 2010 was our year to get games into young players, learn to play together as a team and understand the gameplan and structures. Im not expecting a finals win this year but making the 8 is certainly the bare minimum pass.

I have been jumped all over several times already so I know what you mean. Some people on this site do not like opinions that appear to "Rock the boat" If you don't write the same old same old crap we have been listening to for nigh on half a century,from well before the internet was invented, then you don't appear to be welcome. It's either agree with all the BS or get off the site? Let's get real and admit we have worked as a club and the members numbers have increased, we are out of debt, thanks largely to one of the greatest men ever to grace the confines of the MCG, one Mr. Jimmy Stynes, we now have the best list of players we are likely to have for many years, we have the best draw we could ask for this year, now we must get to work and finalize the list of those whom we are trusting with developing and coaching this fine group of players and at this stage, in my opinion and maybe only my opinion on this site, we have to get that right this year and I do not believe we have at this stage... Sorry Dean Bailey, nice person and intelligent man you may be, but Premiership Coach of a Senior AFL team .... you are not.. prove me wrong if you can... I will be the first person to withdraw my assessment and print a public apology to you and all the faithful on this and any other site..

[... 11]

Connolly talks about getting games into players and when they hit the magical 100 games watch out because we will be in our premiership window. I don't believe it, we keep recruiting light bodied (ectomorph) types that will never bulk up to the point of competing with the top clubs. Even our tall players ie. Rivers, Garland, Cook, Watts, Fitzpatrick, Gawn will never intiimdate the opposition on size alone.

We really need some mentally strong, win at all costs types that have strong frames to build on (endomorph). Only then will the smaller players stand tall knowing thay have a few enforcers in the team. I really don't think we have the balance right. Connolly said on TAC Cup All-Stars last year on CH9 that Jack Fitzpatrick will be a great Melbourne player of the future. Yeah right.

I think we are a long way off the mark at present, although it may only take a few good recruits to make the balance right.

To me the recruiting over the last decade and more has been hit and miss and before you berate me on this comment why have we only played in one Grand final since 1964. Even in 2000 who thought we would beat Essendon. They blew us off the park because they were more aggressive, bigger and stronger.

In 2011 are we bigger and stronger and agressive, NO. Nothing much has changed in my eyes.

Just wait for the excuses from the Club when we don't make the top four in 2013-14.

Endomorphs are fatties. You mean 'mesomorph' (muscular).

[Theo 272]

Endomorphs are fatties. You mean 'mesomorph' (muscular).

Thanks Barry. Got it wrong. Too eager to get some bigger bodied KP types in the team. Memsomorph it is.

[1 red eye 1 blue eye 771]

To me the recruiting over the last decade and more has been hit and miss and before you berate me on this comment why have we only played in one Grand final since 1964. Even in 2000 who thought we would beat Essendon. They blew us off the park because they were more aggressive, bigger and stronger.

Have to berate you for forgetting the 1988 Grand Final

[bing181 9,218]

Some people on this site do not like opinions that appear to "Rock the boat"

Nah. Hard to see how some of the impatient, shoot-from-the-hip propositions we increasingly see around here would even have the boat slightly listing, yet alone rocking.

[plg31ni 2]

Nah. Hard to see how some of the impatient, shoot-from-the-hip propositions we increasingly see around here would even have the boat slightly listing, yet alone rocking.

Let's wait and see how accurate some of the "shoot from the hip" propositions as you call them are, shall we ?? Especially the ones from me. Your reply contains exactly the kind of content I expected from the "patient" ones with attitudes like don't worry we are heading in the right direction etc etc., I read comments like this on Demonland several seasons ago and from some of the same members writing similar stuff today.... Impatient you say.... Yes almost 47 years impatient !!!!! and becoming more impatient with what is turning out to be a disappointing site in as much as the ones that seem to have been on here the longest seem to depict precisely the image our once great club portrays to the football world.... Complacency and acceptance of failure !!! We would be nigh on Bankrupt right now had it not been for the tremendous fighting spirit and dedication of people like Jim Stynes and a handful of others. At least that is how the television viewers saw it portrayed. Yes I have definitely "rocked the boat" and it is obvious to me by a few negative and sometimes sarcastic reactions from people like you. I am in no way intending to offend or be a smart a..e, but it just becomes so frustrating to read how easily some of you people accept mediocrity. The positive comments have come from those who will not accept anything less than success at this point in the club's very long history..Dean Bailey is obviously a nice guy, but hard, tough, inspiring and a person one would feel like walking through a brick wall for,I do not see !! Paul Roos is a nice guy, but is a leader of men and comes across that way. (example) Maybe DB has a problem getting his message across to the football public.. Listen to the so called "footy Experts" talking now. They are after his blood and as usually is the case they will get it ...!! Watch this space !! I have had an interesting experience thus far on Demonland and I do not feel I am very acceptable to some of the more established members, but I assure you, sleep I will never lose over any negative comment directed towards me. I have written many "controversial" articles over nearly thirty years in my home State of Tasmania and have not lost sleep or too many friends on the way. I try hard to verify or at least analyze what I say before I say it.. Do you ??

p.s. I definitely "rocked the boat" with Rhino Richards as evidenced by the following email I received from him re the matter of using Capital letters ?? I can see plenty of similar posts on here right now.. Email from Rhino.. : plg31ni,

Rhino Richards has sent you a new personal conversation entitled "Flaming".

Rhino Richards said:

======================================================================

plg31,

I have deleted your post which you have typed in CAPS.

Typing in CAPS mean you are SHOUTING. And that sort of behaviour is unacceptable on this Forum.

Please read the Code of Conduct.

Thanks

Rhino

=================================================================

I have apologized to Rhino if I offended anyone and unknowingly breached the Code Of Conduct, as I had no intention of giving the impression of shouting, but merely intended to emphasize my points. I cannot see how typing in capitols automatically means one is shouting. I would challenge that assessment if I really needed to.Hopefully the reply I have just written will not be "censored" for any reason.

[rpfc 28,381]

While I think that RR overreacted to your capital letter ridden posts - it can be very annoying to read so many posts with CAPS LOCK stuck on...

You aren't 'rocking the boat,' we welcome passionate Demon fans to come on here and share their views, but as I have posted before - if you don't want people having opinions on your opinion...

Get a blog.

And disable the comments.

If sarcasm is the worst thing you encounter today - consider yourself lucky...

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

.... as I had no intention of giving the impression of shouting, but merely intended to emphasize my points. I cannot see how typing in capitols automatically means one is shouting. I would challenge that assessment if I really needed to.Hopefully the reply I have just written will not be "censored" for any reason.

Peter, there is no need for unnecessary grandstanding. Its basic netiquette (ie etiquitte on the net) not to type in CAPS as it does imply SHOUTING whether you intend it or not. Look up "netiquette" on google and surprise yourself. BTW, the best way of emphasiing your points is to make them factual and reasoned not by using caps. Try it.

[plg31ni 2]

Thank You... I have never minded people having opinions on my opinion and I do not mean that to be my point. My point on the last persons sarcastic comment is simply, be as sarcastic as you like but please at least back it up by following the remarks with a constructive response in order to at least give the impression you have an answer with a little more substance or which at least addresses the points made by the writer.. Fair enough ?

I have written many weekly sports columns in Hobart's local newspaper and have never been one to lose any sleep over sarcastic responses. Sarcasm has very little effect unless it can be backed up by facts.. I assure you sarcasm would be the least thing I would encounter today. I may be a Rookie Demon on this site but in reality, my father was a passionate supporter and he passed the passion down to me and I have never supported any other club and no doubt ever will. I am as frustrated as many others who support the Dees, but I sincerely hope we are not sitting here 5 years from now still saying things like "we are on the right track", "we will make the 8 next year", we are building a Premiership list" etc., etc... ..Go Dees !!!

[bing181 9,218]

Your reply contains exactly the kind of content I expected from the "patient" ones with attitudes like don't worry we are heading in the right direction etc etc.

I've never said we're heading in the right direction, and just because I don't want to stick the boots into Bailey, doesn't mean I accept mediocrity. I just don't see that with a bunch of kids running round, learning the ropes etc., and that without established stars and game-changers amongst our senior players, that we can at this stage be expecting miracles.

You clearly prefer to see things in black and white - well, actually, you clearly prefer to see things in black, not much white there at all - but that seems to me a limited, one-dimensional view of a more multi-layered situation.

We have 3 or 4 of last year's top 10 players out or coming back from injury, we've lost our captain and a couple of other experienced players (a commodity in short supply at Melbourne), not to mention our best tackler and our respected backs coach - that would be a massive blow to any team. Yet here (and elsewhere) there seems little acknowledgement of that.

How many years did it take Dane Swan to become the player he is?

[plg31ni 2]

I've never said we're heading in the right direction, and just because I don't want to stick the boots into Bailey, doesn't mean I accept mediocrity. I just don't see that with a bunch of kids running round, learning the ropes etc., and that without established stars and game-changers amongst our senior players, that we can at this stage be expecting miracles.

You clearly prefer to see things in black and white - well, actually, you clearly prefer to see things in black, not much white there at all - but that seems to me a limited, one-dimensional view of a more multi-layered situation.

We have 3 or 4 of last year's top 10 players out or coming back from injury, we've lost our captain and a couple of other experienced players (a commodity in short supply at Melbourne), not to mention our best tackler and our respected backs coach - that would be a massive blow to any team. Yet here (and elsewhere) there seems little acknowledgement of that.

How many years did it take Dane Swan to become the player he is?

The arguments seem to go on and on with the same excuses. You say I am all black and no white ??? Dane Swan's development is totally irrelevant .. Cannot see the point at all. Other teams go through the types of things you are talking about every season (top players out injured losing previous stars and match winners etc) but they still manage to forge ahead of us eventually. Where do we start listing examples. The post would be ten pages long.... Why ?? So our back coach has left our best tackler has left,. what's wrong with our back coaching staff now then ?? Are they not up to Wellman's standards. Don't we have any tacklers left ?? That's our problem. Why don't you cease arguing with me and concentrate on solutions, not excuses and accepting how we have been for a long time now..., top players out injured.. Hodge, to mention one only didn't play for the Hawks against us in round 2, thank God ?? Read the post on Mick Malthouse if you think I am sticking the boots into Bailey !!

[bing181 9,218]

Hodge, to mention one only didn't play for the Hawks against us in round 2, thank God ??

21 disposals, 6 marks.

What a waste of time - luckily we're not cutting down any trees for this drivel.

[plg31ni 2]

21 disposals, 6 marks.

What a waste of time - luckily we're not cutting down any trees for this drivel.

Whoa !!! You are actually taking notice of what I say.... Didn't think you were after the calibre of replies you were throwing up... Well Done.. I doubt whether we would ever become friends mate. You are far too angry for me... Let's just leave it where it is because I find it hard to tolerate you as you are..

[Mydee 288]

Thank You... I have never minded people having opinions on my opinion and I do not mean that to be my point. My point on the last persons sarcastic comment is simply, be as sarcastic as you like but please at least back it up by following the remarks with a constructive response in order to at least give the impression you have an answer with a little more substance or which at least addresses the points made by the writer.. Fair enough ?

I have written many weekly sports columns in Hobart's local newspaper and have never been one to lose any sleep over sarcastic responses. Sarcasm has very little effect unless it can be backed up by facts.. I assure you sarcasm would be the least thing I would encounter today. I may be a Rookie Demon on this site but in reality, my father was a passionate supporter and he passed the passion down to me and I have never supported any other club and no doubt ever will. I am as frustrated as many others who support the Dees, but I sincerely hope we are not sitting here 5 years from now still saying things like "we are on the right track", "we will make the 8 next year", we are building a Premiership list" etc., etc... ..Go Dees !!!

Having seem the 64 vicyoty and the 88 and 2000 debacles-so do I . I can only take solace in the fact I don't follow the Sainters- shows you who hard it is to win a flag, even with the best team, and how quickly the window of opportunity can pass.

[plg31ni 2]

Having seem the 64 vicyoty and the 88 and 2000 debacles-so do I . I can only take solace in the fact I don't follow the Sainters- shows you who hard it is to win a flag, even with the best team, and how quickly the window of opportunity can pass.

Thank you for your reply with a common sense approach.. We don't look as bad as Port do right now Gold Coast are pushing still only 2 pts down 21 mins into last qur... Gives me some heart