When we are considering whether this pick is sound or we need to still have a pick here or there ...ask... What are we actually trying to achieve ? Its not to go to bed with the best collection of picks, its to have a decent side to filed in the season to season frolic called football. we have a fair stack of warehoused players of whom some may never play senior footy for lack of space. We need to fill certain roles within the makeup of the side. If using picks does that..then do it.

When we are considering whether this pick is sound or we need to still have a pick here or there ...ask... What are we actually trying to achieve ? Its not to go to bed with the best collection of picks, its to have a decent side to filed in the season to season frolic called football. we have a fair stack of warehoused players of whom some may never play senior footy for lack of space. We need to fill certain roles within the makeup of the side. If using picks does that..then do it.

Two questions for you. First is what specific role are we trying to fill and how has Hale demonstrated that he's capable of filling that role in a finals quality team?

The answer tot he first is obvious, but I have major doubts about the second. Hales forward line performances have been on par with Brad Miller, his rucking is sub PJ level. He is a dinosaur.

Ben Holland mark II

Two questions for you. First is what specific role are we trying to fill and how has Hale demonstrated that he's capable of filling that role in a finals quality team?

The answer tot he first is obvious, but I have major doubts about the second. Hales forward line performances have been on par with Brad Miller, his rucking is sub PJ level. He is a dinosaur.

Ben Holland mark II

Well I don't think anyone is claiming it is a risk free proposition. He's not being chased to be a future star. He would just have a relatively simple (as in straight-forward) role for upto 2 years until Spencil/Gawn/Fitzy develop.

A change of scenery can often be positive and you've got to have a bit of trust in our FD

Kinda depends whether you are half-full/half-empty glass type of guy

Comparison to Miller is unfair as his role would be stay-at-home fwd not lead-up

I would back him to outperform PJ in ruckwork

He's a better mark than Dutchy and a much better kick for goal

If we don't get him, then who else (realistically) would fit the role?

I just hope we get a good deal re trades/salary

Not much to say .. Daisy pretty well summed up lol . The role : stay at home kpf, capable of relief rucking. Capabilty ? Is anestablished ruck of decent standard. Can play a strong forward role. Decent mark , good kick. Form? Has been good if not flash .. Recently out of favour. What to make of that ? Many answers and am trusting club to delve forthe right one.he doesn't need to be AA just good and consistently so . He'll be surrounded by talent. He won't need to carry thr forward burden alone just provide an element of focus and structure. He'll force easier defenders onto Jurrah Watts or Petterd .

He'll be part of a cast ... Not the star!!

I think a lot of people miss the point that he is needed not only to be a target at FF but to let Jamar spend more time being a target at FF. That is very important. Jamar can take a grab and kick goals but we rob Peter to pay Paul when we move him there.

Well this is it Rojik we gain flexibility . Jamar is easilr capable of a bag of goals if left there all day but obviously a lesser benefit to the team overall . Lob him there for 5 or so minutes a quarter and we might get 2 or 3 a game. It's a bonus . If Hale gets same then we've got 5 or 6 snags as basis. The problem with that is ?

Well this is it Rojik we gain flexibility . Jamar is easilr capable of a bag of goals if left there all day but obviously a lesser benefit to the team overall . Lob him there for 5 or so minutes a quarter and we might get 2 or 3 a game. It's a bonus . If Hale gets same then we've got 5 or 6 snags as basis. The problem with that is ?

We could do better with what we've got and with the young kid we might pick up in the draft with the pick he costs us.

Hales forward line performances have been on par with Brad Miller, his rucking is sub PJ level. He is a dinosaur.

For me this is the key. Hale needs to be a genuine ruck option. I doubt whether he'd want to come to Melb to be stuck in the forward line, as he was under Laidley. I suspect that Melb are looking at using him 35% ruck/ 35% forward/ 20% bench. This allows Jamar to be 65% ruck/ 25% forward / 10% bench. If he's on a par with Miller's best as a forward and superior in the ruck to Johnson, then there's value in the trade. 37 goals as a 21 year old is nothing to sneeze at. I know that you think that there's no evidence that he can replicate, or indeed improve on that form, but I'm comforted by the fact that he at least had the ability to produce those results. With the right coaching/development I'll back the club to get better performances. That's what good clubs do.

I'm surprised that you think that PJ is a better ruck. PJ is hopeless. Most North supporters believe that Hale is the best pure tap ruckman at the club. And yes, I understand that they have a vested interest in talking him up.

Hale's taps are well down due to him playing almost exclusively as a forward for years. Prior to that he was a tall, skinny, developing ruckman in his early 20's. He obviously has deficiencies, but as an understudy to Jamar I reckon it's a pretty good combination, where two ruckman can go forward and hit the scoreboard. Not a lot of ruckman kick goals, but we'd have two. We've already got plenty of X factor up forward, so it's a reasonable fit for me.

The other thing it tells me is that the club doesn't think that it's a mile off being right in contention. I reckon that they see a genuine window in the next 2-3 years.

Geelong: end of an era, but will still be competitive. Can those that have climbed the mountain keep their hunger ? They look old and like they've lost hunger to me.

Dogs: too many players over 30. Have some excellent young talent, but not enough in the 24-27 year old range.

Saints: it's their last chance this year. Hayes is 30, Riewoldt has been battered for years, and there's just not enough talent coming through. Penty of spuds in their team that are protected by a few stars.

Pies: will be thereabouts for the next few years. Getting a lot out of some average footballers. Good depth.

Freo: a genuine proposition in the not too distant future. Inexperienced and travel factor will be issues.

Carlton: still too many holes on their list. Will be competitive, but I don't see a flag under Ratten. Poor depth and too reliant on the mercenary.

I won't go through any others, but when I evaluate the top 8 sides lists not much scares me. Some lack depth, some are too old, some lack stars ...

I think we're very well placed as we move forward. This is an important draft/trade period for us to dot a couple of i's and cross a couple of t's. If our youth develop as expected I reckon we'll progress quicker than some think.

We could do better with what we've got and with the young kid we might pick up in the draft with the pick he costs us.

How ? The club would seem to disagree hence it's looking at Hale . Having two rucks/ big goal kick abilty blokes = massive headache for oppositions. We aren't building per se anymore , were competing and refining as we go.

Good summation Hannabal btw

If he's on a par with Miller's best as a forward and superior in the ruck to Johnson, then there's value in the trade.

I'm not convinced that Hale is a good ruck, but we'll just have to agree to disagree on that one, although I would like to see his 'taps to advantage' stats, that would help.

His forward work is what most interests me, particulary his last two years, which I think we'll give us the bext indication of what he's capable of in the future. Performing as a key forward will be his main role, back up ruck secondary.

In 2009 he kicked 22 goals from 16 games (averaged 3.4 hit outs per game)

In 2010 it was 17 goals from 12 games (3.2 hit outs).

The last 5 games in 2010 he didn't kick any goals at all.

Those stats point at a liability in the making and why anyone thinks that he's going to instantly get back to his form from three years ago is deluded.

Then there's the danger of the opposition using Hale's man to run the ball out of defence, as he's hardly the quick, agile type.

I'm not convinced that Hale is a good ruck, but we'll just have to agree to disagree on that one, although I would like to see his 'taps to advantage' stats, that would help.

His forward work is what most interests me, particulary his last two years, which I think we'll give us the bext indication of what he's capable of in the future. Performing as a key forward will be his main role, back up ruck secondary.

In 2009 he kicked 22 goals from 16 games (averaged 3.4 hit outs per game)

In 2010 it was 17 goals from 12 games (3.2 hit outs).

The last 5 games in 2010 he didn't kick any goals at all.

Those stats point at a liability in the making and why anyone thinks that he's going to instantly get back to his form from three years ago is deluded.

Then there's the danger of the opposition using Hale's man to run the ball out of defence, as he's hardly the quick, agile type.

He's not being recruited to be a "key forward". His job is partly to take the heat off the key forwards. In fact theoretically he could get no possessions and still do his job. He will be pretty well stay at home forward to contest the long kicks deep into the forward line. To either mark or provide a contest for the crumbers. Hopefully he takes a key opposition tall away from our key forwards. If he takes an odd grab and goal, which he is quite capable of, that is a bonus.

His number one job in the ruck would be to ensure the opposition don't get any ruck supremacy whilst Jamar rests. If he can do more, again a bonus.

How ? The club would seem to disagree hence it's looking at Hale . Having two rucks/ big goal kick abilty blokes = massive headache for oppositions. We aren't building per se anymore , were competing and refining as we go.

Good summation Hannabal btw

Saints are playing two ruckmen in the grand final today and both of them are like Hale - hopeless below the knees. According to Leigh Matthews in commentary on Channel 7 it's one of St. Kilda's Achilles heels.

Pick 31 for Hale I could possibly live with. He is a Ruck who can rest up forward and go forward to cause a mismatch. Obviously at North he is behind Macintosh and Goldstein in the ruck stakes. This has created an imperative for them to trade him given he has 2 years to go at an estimated $400,000 a year. If no team can afford to have a player on that money playing half season in the VFL as he did this year then with Petrie returning in 2011 and Hale facing a full season in the VFL the imperative to trade is even greater.

For us he gives us a legitimate second ruckman to support Jamar while Spencer, Fitzpatrick and Gawn develop. He would be a definite improvement on Paul 'The Armless Man' Johnson for starters. As others have have stated the fact that Hale can hold his own in the ruck also allows Jamar to spend more time at Full Forward where his contested marking and second efforts at ground level should trouble opposition defences.

The major query I have over Hale is his intensity and desire. Is he the kind of player who is just happy to be cruising along playing AFL footy and earning enough to set himself up for life or does he want to bust a gut to get better and be the best player he can?

Can we get him for Pick 31 given other clubs like Gold Coast, Hawthorn and even St Kilda are also in the market for a ruckman who can rest forward? Time will tell.

Edited October 2, 201014 yr by demoniac

The major query I have over Hale is his intensity and desire. Is he the kind of player who is just happy to be cruising along playing AFL footy and earning enough to set himself up for life or does he want to bust a gut to get better and be the best player he can?

A legitimate concern. That will be the challenge for the FD (and of cause Hale).

He's not being recruited to be a "key forward". His job is partly to take the heat off the key forwards. In fact theoretically he could get no possessions and still do his job. He will be pretty well stay at home forward to contest the long kicks deep into the forward line. To either mark or provide a contest for the crumbers. Hopefully he takes a key opposition tall away from our key forwards. If he takes an odd grab and goal, which he is quite capable of, that is a bonus.

His number one job in the ruck would be to ensure the opposition don't get any ruck supremacy whilst Jamar rests. If he can do more, again a bonus.

That sounds like what Kosi does for the Saints.

I don't know if you can afford to have a passenger in the side anymore, in fact if we were offered Kosi would we want him and is Hale any better?

Edited October 2, 201014 yr by RobbieF

He's not being recruited to be a "key forward". His job is partly to take the heat off the key forwards. In fact theoretically he could get no possessions and still do his job. He will be pretty well stay at home forward to contest the long kicks deep into the forward line. To either mark or provide a contest for the crumbers. Hopefully he takes a key opposition tall away from our key forwards. If he takes an odd grab and goal, which he is quite capable of, that is a bonus.

His number one job in the ruck would be to ensure the opposition don't get any ruck supremacy whilst Jamar rests. If he can do more, again a bonus.

In that case why don't we just go into the MCG carpark, chop down a tree and stick it in our forward line.

That's just a stupid suggestion, Josh Fraser is Collingwood's equivalent to David Hale, he's not playing to today and probably won't play another game for them. The days of a big, stay home log in the forward line are gone.

Ben Holland mark II

Ben Holland was a great trade! Borderline 22, but could come into the side a fulfill a role.

Shocking kick but had good hands and could play forward or back and also rucked when we were in trouble.

We gave up pick 21 for Ben. The player who was taken with that pick was Alex Gilmour. followed by Cameron Thurley and Matthew Moody. We certainly won that trade.

I reckon Hale would be better than Holland.

He's not being recruited to be a "key forward". His job is partly to take the heat off the key forwards. In fact theoretically he could get no possessions and still do his job. He will be pretty well stay at home forward to contest the long kicks deep into the forward line. To either mark or provide a contest for the crumbers. Hopefully he takes a key opposition tall away from our key forwards. If he takes an odd grab and goal, which he is quite capable of, that is a bonus.

lol wow

His number one job in the ruck would be to ensure the opposition don't get any ruck supremacy whilst Jamar rests. If he can do more, again a bonus.

A stock ruckman is more likely to accomplish this.

Edited October 2, 201014 yr by 1858

In that case why don't we just go into the MCG carpark, chop down a tree and stick it in our forward line.

Would be $400k cheaper.

Can i just say, that this grand final 1000% confirmed what i always thought.

Having a 200cm big boy to sit in the forward line, might look good on paper for your structure, but it is ABSOLUTELY USELESS if they aren't a good football.

Justin KoShitski plays that role for StKilda. He might even play a few ok games throughout the year and kick a few goals. But when it comes to the crunch, having a 200cm crap football is a LIABILITY!

David Hale is actually a worse player than KoShitski. And that's saying something.

We shouldn't get just any 200cm big bodied player just because they are tall. Hale might be ok a few games a year, but when we need him most, he'll be no where to be seen.

lol wow

A stock ruckman is more likely to accomplish this.

I did say theoretically. I was just trying to emphasise a point that he's not being recruited as a key forward, but to provide some structure to free up and protect our younger developing key forwards in Watts and Jurrah.

I would hope he will get 1-2 goals per game

I would hope he provides a better ruck performance than PJ or anyone else we have

If you can find a tree in the carpark to do that, fine

For all those who don't want Hale, what is your better alternative

Can i just say, that this grand final 1000% confirmed what i always thought.

Having a 200cm big boy to sit in the forward line, might look good on paper for your structure, but it is ABSOLUTELY USELESS if they aren't a good football.

Justin KoShitski plays that role for StKilda. He might even play a few ok games throughout the year and kick a few goals. But when it comes to the crunch, having a 200cm crap football is a LIABILITY!

David Hale is actually a worse player than KoShitski. And that's saying something.

We shouldn't get just any 200cm big bodied player just because they are tall. Hale might be ok a few games a year, but when we need him most, he'll be no where to be seen.

Pretty hard to judge any St Kilda forward or any particular forward strucure based on today's game for mine given that the Saints were absolutely smashed in the midfield.

It's now sounding like it's Fait Accompli that he's coming to us for our second pick... #32. Are we paying overs?

Not sure Hale is worth our 2nd rnd pick, but I have full trust in our FD and believe they know what there doing.

Do think we need to get another pick elsewhere if we give up our 2nd rounder!

Hale is not worth a second round pick- 3rd maybe.

Ben Holland was a great trade! Borderline 22, but could come into the side a fulfill a role.

Shocking kick but had good hands and could play forward or back and also rucked when we were in trouble.

We gave up pick 21 for Ben. The player who was taken with that pick was Alex Gilmour. followed by Cameron Thurley and Matthew Moody. We certainly won that trade.

I reckon Hale would be better than Holland.

You have got to be kidding