Development, and to safeguard a serious Jamar injury, which would put his career and our 2010 season in freefall. (his renaissance is based largely on hard work and fitness, a la Cox)

Is Jamar really at huge risk of injury by playing alone? Jamar got through the Port game without breaking down - if he can survive that he can survive anything. That argument is just paranoid hysteria IMO. There's no evidence that Jamar playing 99% of the game in the ruck will cause him to get injured. And it why would it put his career in freefall? He'll still be our best ruckman next year regardless of any injuries he gets this year. Development can be done at Casey.

You lose a huge amount of run by spending a valuable spot in the side on a ruckman who spends 5 minutes a quarter on the ground. As rpfc said, there's no second ruckman in our best 25 (probably our best 30 atm) so we shouldn't play one. To do so would sacrifice vital run at the expense of something which is not entirely necessary.

Let's not forget that there's a split round coming in a few weeks time. I think Jamar will need a chop out against the Pies in round 12 and maybe the Blues in round 11. Against the Cats though, especially after a taxing game in Darwin and without two genuine opposition rucks, I think we could use an extra runner in our midfield rotations. Russian will have earnt his week off come round 13!

Most good rucks thrive on doing the majority of the rucking. It is now coincidence that Clark, Ryder, Jamar and now even Goldstien improved dramatically because they were essentially the sole ruck. Note also that Clark and Ryder have since dropped off, once they started sharing the ruck duties. Even Cox has not been as effective since sharing time witn "Nat's".

Geelong's second string ruck presently is Tom Hawkins - who is someone we could probably put Dunn against - at the very least Dunn could then run with him or play offensively and make him accontable. As for who Dunn come's in for, well that is all going to come down to how everyone pulls up, but if all is good then most likely Wonna or one of our tall timber defenders. Geelong really only has two tall forwards in Mooney and Pods.

Love the irony that Jamar's development was hindered by the fact that White dominated most of the game time for rucks (without burnout) and now Jamar is dominating most of the tame time for rucks.

Let's not forget that there's a split round coming in a few weeks time. I think Jamar will need a chop out against the Pies in round 12 and maybe the Blues in round 11. Against the Cats though, especially after a taxing game in Darwin and without two genuine opposition rucks, I think we could use an extra runner in our midfield rotations. Russian will have earnt his week off come round 13!

Ah, right, yep that may explain it. I hadn't thought of that as it doesn't stand out on my fixture, unless you read the actual dates.

I think Jamar should be rested this week against the Cats. Get him right for Carlscum!

Bring in Spencer, Johnson or Martin to ruck. Not Sylvia! Ha Ha!

Quite ridiculous these calls for Jamar to be rested. We're not talking about a 19/20/21 year old who's body is still developing. Mark is turning 27 in August. He's only a few months younger than Sandilands, and you don't see him needing a week off, nor do you see Fremantle just playing kids like Zac Clarke who aren't up to it yet simply because they don't want their ruckman getting a bit tired.

I would much rather see someone like Sylvia concede a couple of hit outs for 5 mins or so each quarter while giving us more run through the middle while Jamar has a rest than see Spencer or Martin learning on the job while their Casey form doesn't dictate them getting a game.

How are we supposed to take your thread seriously with this? On what planet is losing Sylvia from the forward line/regular midfielder position HELPING the side when he's good for only a handful of hit-outs?

How are we supposed to take your response seriously when you imply that Sylvia taking 2 or 3 centre bounces somehow results in him not playing as a 'regular midfielder'?? If anything, it makes him a more involved midfielder than usual as he is starting in the square.

Mark Jamar would eat nails for breakfast and ask for seconds. He does not get tired. In Russia, ruckman rests you. I wouldn't worry.

If we absolutely must have a spare part-time ruck, Dunn is in the top 50 rucks in the competition for hitouts this year

Edited May 24, 201015 yr by RalphiusMaximus

This is simple: The Premiership Calculus

Is an MFC Premier going to have 2 int the team Rucks? Undoubtedly Yes (see premiers for the last 20 years)

Are we going to to win it this year? No

Jamar is a beast but he needs real help, not 3-5 min a quater. The middle disolved because he was stuffed by the final quarter vs. PA.

Therefore we need to start playing two ruckmen ASAP...Maybe there is no one but Gawn who looks the goods (Fitz a KPP probably) but there are two reasons we need to start playing someone.

1. If Gawn is no. 2, we need a reliable no.3 in Spencer or whoever.

2. Playing Jamar solo for an extended period of time will take years off his career. We need this guy in our side playing at this level for 4 years at least. Don't waste him.

Edited May 24, 201015 yr by pitchfork

Leave Jamar in the Ruck bring Bate back in this week then have Miller up forward pinch hitting in the ruck against Hawkins when he gives Blake a break. Miller v Hawkins in the ruck to me would be a fairly even match up. Rather than having an extra ruckman keeping the fleet footed brothers in the side might worry the cats a little. Their backline is quite big and they dont have many quick runners in the back half which Carlton showed them up for.

Our worry this week is the level of energy that was drained in the humidity on Saturday night, we need as many runners in the team as possible to give us the leg speed to challenge the Cats. I dont think an extra ruckmen is as important as having players that can contribute to running the game out!

Go Demons

Is Jamar really at huge risk of injury by playing alone? Jamar got through the Port game without breaking down - if he can survive that he can survive anything. That argument is just paranoid hysteria IMO.

Fair enough. Each to their own. I think what brings this thinking on (at least for me) is two things. 1: The lack of a ready-made backup for season 2010 and 2: IMO one of the major differences between Jamar in 2010 and Jamar in the years preceeding this is fitness. The first play of the Port game he chased a ball for about 15 seconds scrambling, falling, getting up, second efforts are a new thing for him, and they're bringing out the monster we're seeing now. If he does a soft tissue injury that lingers, or worse a structural/tendon injury, how long will it take him to get fit again?

There's no evidence that Jamar playing 99% of the game in the ruck will cause him to get injured.

I disagree. The evidence is in the injuries we're seeing these days. Perhaps not to ruckmen so much (it's not getting to the point that we need to bring in another rule like the centre circle). But certainly to AFL players generally. Recovery IS footy these days. IMO you're kidding yourself if you think injuries aren't a key factor in a club's fortunes these days. In fact it's getting to the stage (with the evenness of the comp) that the medicos are affecting the entire season the most out of everyone. Almost as much affect as the recruiters... and even they are looking at injury history in a big way.

And it why would it put his career in freefall? He'll still be our best ruckman next year regardless of any injuries he gets this year. Development can be done at Casey.

As I mentioned above, fitness seems to make a huge difference with Mark. Though you may have a point there. He's done enough to have a Wonna like season and still be safe.

You lose a huge amount of run by spending a valuable spot in the side on a ruckman who spends 5 minutes a quarter on the ground. As rpfc said, there's no second ruckman in our best 25 (probably our best 30 atm) so we shouldn't play one. To do so would sacrifice vital run at the expense of something which is not entirely necessary.

I don't believe that's a good reason to abandon the idea completely. Particularly if all it does is create a situation where a player is more likely to get hurt. The Roos have been known to play 4 big men in the same game, and do it effectively. Yes, two of them play forward or back exclusively, but it does show it can be done. All in all, my point is that it's certainly true we don't have a good backup. But in a development year, that shouldn't stop us from playing a kid who needs games. It took Jamar years to figure out he could play forward. One of these other guys has to get there, but they will need time in the AFL. I could deal with Jamar being used in SOME games as the sole ruck, especially if matchups demanded it. But I can't deal with it if the only reason we're doing it is to have a marginally better win-loss record. 8th means nothing to me if Jamar isn't there next year when we're a more serious finals threat.

Most good rucks thrive on doing the majority of the rucking. It is now coincidence that Clark, Ryder, Jamar and now even Goldstien improved dramatically because they were essentially the sole ruck. Note also that Clark and Ryder have since dropped off, once they started sharing the ruck duties. Even Cox has not been as effective since sharing time witn "Nat's".

Maybe. I would argue his best form this year has been when he came back in and got some match fitness. Nicnat's output has been hurt more than Cox's. I think you're missing the point here though. As a ruck tandem, they're close to the best in the game. And while Jamar nearly got as many hitouts as the pair, he was beaten in the general sense. Cox was all over that game, and NicNat did enough in his cameos with limited opportunity.

Put it this way. Imagine a demons midfield with Cox/Naitanui service. Those who would argue we don't HAVE a Naitanui, well I'd say to them we never will playing Jamar on his own. And worse still, we may be without him in the near future BECAUSE we played him on his own. It's as good a reason as any that we don't need Jamar for 2010-12... we need him for 2010-2015.

In Russia, ruckman rests you.

HA!

Jamar has become the player he is because he is the dominant ruck.

It is absolute rubbish to suggest we are taking years off his career by playing him for 90% of the game in the ruck. If anything, it will give him more

run in the legs and train his body to do more for longer.

Bringing up ruck tandems that have won premierships 20 years ago, or even 5 years ago, is disingenuous as the game has changed so quickly.

All I have seen in the argument for a second ruck is the worrisome paranoia (Dees supporters do this very well) of what could happen to Jamar if we don't have help for him.

But what about this 22nd player? What would he bring? 20 mins of outfield play and 5 touches? A handful of ruck contests? Why should we give a bloke a game who has only one bow string and not a very good string at that?

Keep a runner in the team and get Miller or Sylvia to sacrifice 20 mins of their game.

This is simple: The Premiership Calculus

Is an MFC Premier going to have 2 int the team Rucks? Undoubtedly Yes (see premiers for the last 20 years)

Are we going to to win it this year? No

Jamar is a beast but he needs real help, not 3-5 min a quater. The middle disolved because he was stuffed by the final quarter vs. PA.

Therefore we need to start playing two ruckmen ASAP...Maybe there is no one but Gawn who looks the goods (Fitz a KPP probably) but there are two reasons we need to start playing someone.

1. If Gawn is no. 2, we need a reliable no.3 in Spencer or whoever.

2. Playing Jamar solo for an extended period of time will take years off his career. We need this guy in our side playing at this level for 4 years at least. Don't waste him.

Spencer will be a No1 Ruck within 3 Years,,,IF he continues the attitude & hard work. Gawn, hopefully will be his understudy. I saw in Jamar, & I see in Spencer, as long as he keeps on keeping on, a lot of potential, just as Connells does.

Jamar 26yrs 9mths, - 1st Ruck - 2010/11/12/13

Spencer 20yrs 7mths - 1st Ruck - 2013/14/15/16

Gawn, 18yrs 4mths, hopefully 1st Ruck - 2016/17/18...

http://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/tp-melbourne-demons?year=2010&sby=15

very observant from on the couch tonight, that every time we've played a 2nd ruckman, we've lost, every time we have gone jamar one out, we've won... that extra runner is obviously important for us...

On The Couch came out with an interesting statistic tonight- apparently we have won every game when Jamar has been the lone ruckman, and lost every game when we have had a back-up in the side...

Not sure of the exact validity of this stat (Martin played predominantly as a back-up in the win against the Lions and the loss against Norf) but their point was that we lost too much run from the side when we play a second tall off the bench.

After seeing Nev Jetta's impact coming in as a late replacement for Spencer, it's pretty hard to argue with them.

Some people are really over rating Spencer. He is Horrible. He will not be our No.1 ruck ever! Will struggle to be on a AFL list next year

Some people are really over rating Spencer. He is Horrible. He will not be our No.1 ruck ever! Will struggle to be on a AFL list next year

I'll have a wager then with you Pete.

On The Couch came out with an interesting statistic tonight- apparently we have won every game when Jamar has been the lone ruckman, and lost every game when we have had a back-up in the side...

Not sure of the exact validity of this stat (Martin played predominantly as a back-up in the win against the Lions and the loss against Norf) but their point was that we lost too much run from the side when we play a second tall off the bench.

After seeing Nev Jetta's impact coming in as a late replacement for Spencer, it's pretty hard to argue with them.

Running is not the panacea it once was, it's the quality + quantity thats important. I watched again, the win against the Tiges early last year, after Sammy Allica passed,,, Bruce received the footy in deep defense near the boundary & ran hard with the ball, 40 Mtrs then kicked it straight to the opposition who read his play to perfection, then they raced it back down the corridor.

The run 'n' carry is huge, but when we get our boys to build even better tanks, with elite disposal skills, over the field, then we will be able to have 2 tall ruck/followers in the side. As long as they do their share of running as well. Plus the aerial superiority.

Edited May 25, 201015 yr by dee-luded

Some people are really over rating Spencer. He is Horrible. He will not be our No.1 ruck ever! Will struggle to be on a AFL list next year

In 2006, when Jamar was a full year older than Spencer is now, people were writing him off and saying that he was useless. Ruckmen take a long time to come good, and it is unusual for a 21 year old ruck prospect not to look a little lumbersome around the ball and have erratic disposal, which seems to be the crux of Spencers problems. When you consider he has only played football for a quarter of his life, this rings doubly true.

You delist a 21 year old ruck prospect if they have no obvious strengths or have shown no positive signs. Spencer is a fierce competitor with a good work rate, has proven a competent tap ruckman with a good leap in the center bounces, has been handy in some preseason games for Melbourne and is playing good footy for Casey. He is probably about where he should be -if not slightly ahead- at this stage in his career.

What is it about Spencer that you think makes him so much worse than most other 21 year old ruckmen?

Keep a runner in the team and get Miller or Sylvia to sacrifice 20 mins of their game.

THAT'S your solution? Have a 6 foot player play in the ruck because it "gives us more run."

I can't believe people think this is a serious permanent fix for this problem.

very observant from on the couch tonight, that every time we've played a 2nd ruckman, we've lost, every time we have gone jamar one out, we've won... that extra runner is obviously important for us...

You know what's more important? Jamar playing 22 games next season.

Some people are really over rating Spencer. He is Horrible. He will not be our No.1 ruck ever! Will struggle to be on a AFL list next year

You may be right. However we've heard time and again that the club rate him this highly. Regardless of how we feel about him, he must be allowed to either fail and be replaced, or succeed... then everyone's happy.

The run 'n' carry is huge, but when we get our boys to build even better tanks, with elite disposal skills, over the field, then we will be able to have 2 tall ruck/followers in the side. As long as they do their share of running as well. Plus the aerial superiority.

Exactly.

Play Jamar on his own. Great. Sensational. To what end? Even if we DO make the finals we'll only scrape in by the skin of our teeth, like the Dons last year. Why are we running him into the ground? You lot can't SERIOUSLY think the club is going to give the stamp of approval to a one-ruckman gameplan for season 2011 and beyond as our Plan-A? Why is it so difficult for people to appreciate there are more important things than scraping a couple of extra wins this season? We HAVE to find another ruckman. MFC isn't as desperate for wins as everyone on here is. What we're desperate for is significant, sustained improvement. Denying a second ruckman opportunities HURTS the club going forward. It really is a simple equation. And with Jamar clearly struggling under the weight of all that game time, it makes perfect sense to take a bit of short term pain (experimenting with various second ruck options like Martin, Spencer, PJ etc etc) for a lot of long term gain.

How good would it be to have a great ruck DUO? Playing him on his own doesn't get us there. It's just an unnecessary strain on him.

THAT'S your solution? Have a 6 foot player play in the ruck because it "gives us more run."

I can't believe people think this is a serious permanent fix for this problem.

And that is why you fail.

I don't see how anyone can think that 20 mins is useful for an up and coming ruckman.

To play two-thirds of one quarter and expect to get better?!

What is the point of that?

Jamar is our dominant ruck and as his standards have gone up, so do our expectations of him.

BTW, our gameplan requires more run than other sides.

We need run.

Not mediocre ruckwork for 5 centre bounces, and 20 minutes of following.

And that is why you fail.

I don't see how anyone can think that 20 mins is useful for an up and coming ruckman.

To play two-thirds of one quarter and expect to get better?!

What is the point of that?

Jamar is our dominant ruck and as his standards have gone up, so do our expectations of him.

BTW, our gameplan requires more run than other sides. We need run.

Not mediocre ruckwork for 5 centre bounces, and 20 minutes of following.

If you can't see Spencers talent, you need to learn (about young ruckmen) as I did, with the Kangaroos young Rucks, McIntosh & Hale, I thought they were Spuds when I was comparing them to my boy Jamar,,, but the gangly kids would develop.

This made me take a step back & question my judgment, & I learnt to recognize some of my deficiencies Re the Big men. I'm happy to say that now I'm learning to spot those important things about what are Key for lanky rucks.

But there ya go,, we all learn, & we all develop, hopefully for the better.

If you can't see Spencers talent, you need to learn (about young ruckmen) as I did, with the Kangaroos young Rucks, McIntosh & Hale, I thought they were Spuds when I was comparing them to my boy Jamar,,, but the gangly kids would develop.

This made me take a step back & question my judgment, & I learnt to recognize some of my deficiencies Re the Big men. I'm happy to say that now I'm learning to spot those important things about what are Key for lanky rucks.

But there ya go,, we all learn, & we all develop, hopefully for the better.

In three years time he might be fantastic, there's no disputing that. There's a million other case studies with ruckmen where that has happened. Look no further than Jamar himself.

Right now, he's not good enough to be in the side. I really do think it is that simple. He offers nothing when not in the ruck, so IMO even if is an adequate ruckman, there isn't room for both he and Jamar in the side.

There seems to be this perception that because people don't want Spencer in the side right now that we've written him off for good. That's not the case. In between black and white are many shades of grey; I don't want Spencer in the side yet.

In three years time he might be fantastic, there's no disputing that. There's a million other case studies with ruckmen where that has happened. Look no further than Jamar himself.

Right now, he's not good enough to be in the side. I really do think it is that simple. He offers nothing when not in the ruck, so IMO even if is an adequate ruckman, there isn't room for both he and Jamar in the side.

There seems to be this perception that because people don't want Spencer in the side right now that we've written him off for good. That's not the case. In between black and white are many shades of grey; I don't want Spencer in the side yet.

This is a year to develop the kids, that includes Spence. I new Jamar would be good ruckmen 3 years ago.

Chris Connolly told me a couple of years ago he expected Spence to be a good'en, & I can see what he sees. I don't know if you can or not. That's irrelevant to our need to develop this boy as we need a second ruck in many games & this will increase as we become more of a threat to the top sides & they start to put more effort in against us.

You probably haven't seen his efforts this year at Casey, I believe your in Hobart, so I guess you don't see him play. He's shown a lot & has improved heaps. He deserves every AFL game he gets when the situation calls for him.

IF, the Russian couldn't play for some reason in the next 12 months or so, we'd need to be able to rely on Spencer to step into the breach.

Edited May 25, 201015 yr by dee-luded

in the spirit of these thread I also suggest we send Watts, Scully and Trengove to Casey. Maybe Grimes too. These young guys are showing plenty. We wouldn't want them to get hurt.

they'v got just as much chance of getting injured at casey as they do in the A.F.L