The Club, The Coach & The Questions

[Guest Thomo]

The 6 players you talk about all have at least one glaring deffiency, if not more. They are also the ones this club looks to to lead the play on the field. There are no Flower's, Buckley's, Lyon's or anyone near that calibre to lead those around them. Just look at Saturday. We were killed by Hodge, Mitchell, Lewis and Brown. These are big bodied top level premiership players. Not one of the 6 you mention are in the same ballpark as these players. Throw in an underdone Bate and Davey and a concussed Green and we were very lucky the margin wasn't 100 points. To harp on about not getting the most out of your team when your team is in the state ours is is kind of pointless. In the second half he gave Trengove a run with Hodge and then Scully a run with Hodge. he's developing players. We're going to have to wait until Watts, Jurrah, Morton, Garland, Sylvia, Blease, Scully, Trengove, Strauss, Grimes, Gysberts, Mckenzie and co. have played at least a season together before winning becomes important.

The six that I named were a quote from RR.

I agree with you on the reasons as to why we lost, and that the players are not up to leading the team to a sucessful season, I'm just not sure why they are not up to it.

One of the reasons I question the developement about the 21-26 year olds, is that I hope that we are not asking the same questions of Watts, Jurrah, Morton, Garland, Sylvia, Blease, Scully, Trengove, Strauss, Grimes, Gysberts, Mckenzie and co in 4 years time.

I hope that Dean Bailey is as good as the board believe he is.

[Sir Why You Little 36,983]

The six that I named were a quote from RR.

One of the reasons I question the developement about the 21-26 year olds, is that I hope that we are not asking the same questions of Watts, Jurrah, Morton, Garland, Sylvia, Blease, Scully, Trengove, Strauss, Grimes, Gysberts, Mckenzie and co in 4 years time.

I hope that Dean Bailey is as good as the board believe he is.

Yes i wonder the same Thomo, can we take these Top line kids to their potential as other clubs do. We haven't done it since the early 60's.

Last Saturday on the Coodabeens Hassa Mann was interviewed & he alluded to the fact that a lot of the Norm Smith problems started with the Board not recruiting well enough through 1962-63. That '64 was our last chance before a rebuild (we just made it)

Mann was captain between 65-68 his comment was they were Tough years

We have the Training facilities now at least so it's up to the teachers skills in a lot of ways.

[jayceebee31 759]

Come on they like the name! I am sure they have offered Nikki B a Lexus coterie membership B)

Actually Nicki is a staunch Demon supporter

[2014-Flag 0]

effectively we didnt use the draft after 1999 till about 2006 where we have frawley, petterd and garland

these are the blokes taken in the various drafts that remain on our list (ie, these blokes are the pick of the picks in a sense), only mclean i think is not on the list is of any value at other clubs.

2005 12 Nathan Jones Melbourne

2005 60 Clint Bartram Melbourne

2004 13 Matthew Bate Melbourne

2004 15 Lynden Dunn Melbourne

2004 Matthew Warnock Rookie Melbourne

2003 3 Colin Sylvia Melbourne

2003 Aaron Davey Rookie Melbourne

2002 14 Daniel Bell Melbourne

2002 26 Jared Rivers Melbourne

2001 55 Brad Miller Melbourne

2001 Mark Jamar Rookie Melbourne

these blokes should form the backbone of our club, but there isnt much there to be honest. 2000, 01, 02, 03, 04, 05. 6 years of drafting and probably sylvia and davey are of any note. that is the black hole of the melbourne football club. not the 2008-10 bailey years.

Thank you for this. This tells me more about our disastrous current state than any other post. We need say no more, and also appreciate DB's and the Club's board and senior management's current challenges. All we can do is wait and hope.

We need tho now to concentrate our focus on getting our recruiting and list management right. It is the only way forward

[Dee Fan 3,247]

It was interesting to watch Travis and Brock play last night and they seem to have fitted in well with their new clubs as Mature aged recruits. Travis played with an intensity I have very rarely seen in him and Carlton seems to have found the best way to utilize Brock, get in and get the ball and pass it to someone that can kick.

I don't regret getting rid of either player but it shows what they were capable of given the right set of circumstances and the right coaching. Travis and Brock are no longer the main focal point of the opposition each week but they still attract attention and seem to be handling that a lot better than when they played for us.

[agent_orange 0]

This week has been great, especially that Bailey has had a bit of curry poured on him.

He may have had some excuses but now I am sure he has to start getting some results. The pressure is on so he'll have to work his backside off.

The demons should never accept half hearted results. Last Saturday was not about the Dee's being young side rebuilding, it was the lack of second efforts, the backing up of team mates.

The difference between us and the rest of the league is that we are not well drilled, most of the players cannot be bothered to run and help a team mate.

Would have loved to seen the Dee's drop Davey or Bruce. Dropping a big name would have sent a clear message to all players in the team.

[Yokozuna 1,004]

Much easier fot Travis and Brock to play well when they have better players around them.

Im agine Travis still at Melbourne. He would still be annoying us as usual, but when he did use his great skill, he would he be kicking it too in the forward line, not Brown and Fevola.

And for Brock, he has several very good midfielders around him, many A graders, and of course he can get the ball out to them. We always new he would show more this year, but I think many average players look much better in a good team!

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

Each are playing the 4th or 5th string midfielder role which they are good at. Mind you in this 3rd year at the Lions, TJ has been typically fickle over the journey. FWIW, I did not think much of his first half. Missed a few targets, 2nd efforts and one easy mark. Needs a good session with a caring barber though.

[Dee Fan 3,247]

Much easier fot Travis and Brock to play well when they have better players around them.

Im agine Travis still at Melbourne. He would still be annoying us as usual, but when he did use his great skill, he would he be kicking it too in the forward line, not Brown and Fevola.

And for Brock, he has several very good midfielders around him, many A graders, and of course he can get the ball out to them. We always new he would show more this year, but I think many average players look much better in a good team!

I understand that but if we still had Brock at the club feeding the ball out to our runners it would take a lot of the pressure off Sculley and Jones. We will have a few top liners as well in the next couple of years, or so it seems, and as long as all he had to do was feed the ball out he may have been of benefit to us. His kicking and treacle pace would not have mattered.

As for Travis well he is playing a different style of football up there because both the current and previous coach wouldn't have accepted anything less. He is surrounded by a couple of good players but he isn't sooking to the umpire after every stoppage and is playing hard football. The Dreadlocks are just about as bad as any I have seen including Spida Everitt.

[The Chazz 4,077]

The point was that Malthouse and Northey developed average players into good players, that's why they had quality lists. The teams may not have had quality players under a different coach.

It's easy to say that players are not up to standard, but why? They were drafted for a reason, and have not preformed. Was it bad drafting, or bad development. Many posters seem to say that Dean Bailey is not to blame for the payers aged between 21 and 26 being below AFL standard, but isn't it part of the coaches job to teach these players and get the best out of them? Dean Bailey has had two and a half years with them, and the majority of players in that age group have gone backwards. Why are Rivers, Warnock, Bate, Petterd, Moloney, Jones, Jamar, Bartram, Dunn not up to the standard that we hoped?

Melbourne cannot just rely on the natural talent of draft picks. Some will not work out, some will get injured, some will leave. Remember that there are two teams are about to enter the competition that will have better draft picks than Melbourne, so like the rest of the competition we need to make sure we have someone that can get the best out of the average players.

I’m not saying get rid of Dean Bailey, but I also don’t believe in blind faith. It’s easy to coach blokes like Scully. I want improvement from the average players.

edit - added quote

Great opening post, has to be a finalist for "Post of the Year".

Now, Thomo, I think a few of those names you mentioned should not have been named. Melbourne's backline would be in the top 5-8 in the league. Can't see how Warnock and Rivers have gone backwards - the year he won that he only averaged 11.8 disposals a game, 2nd to Kosi in regards to the least amount of disposals per game of any RS winner. Compare those stats to Buckley (22.9), Sam Mitchell (17.8), Selwood (19.2) - ok they are all midfielders, what about Chris Scott (14.8), Riewoldt (14.5), Nick Holland (17.2). The year Riv won it, he played very well, but can we compare this to Brian Wilson winning the Brownlow? My point is that maybe Rivers never had the ability to be a superstar, just a reliable defender who I happen to love watch play. He is one of not many who will get in the face of opposition players and tell them how crap they are. He runs back in to packs, and isn't affraid to run off his man and take a chance. Warnock over the past couple of years has been amazing, and instrumental in the development of Frawley. Give me Warnock's stats for goals against over the past 3 years, rate him alone in the top 5 full backs.

I agree with you about Bartram and Dunn, thought they could have taken the next step (which would only have brought them up to B-grade players), but I think Bate, Petterd, Jones, Moloney and Jamar have reached their level, with only Jamar, Jones and Petterd having slight potential to go to B+ grade.

The million dollar question is "does this have anything to do with player development"? Personally, I think not. I think the biggest factor is that we don't have those A-grade players to bring these blokes in to the game. Look at Joel Corey/Corey Enright - they would be A-grade players at the moment, but would they be if they played for Melbourne where they don't have the luxury of Ablett, Selwood, Ling and Bartel feeding them all day long?

Re-visit this post in 3-5 years when Watts, Scully and Trengove are expected to be at the start of stardom. Reality check - these are the only 3 players on our list that you can put in this group - all Number 1 draft picks (some would argue that Trengove was the unofficial number 1!). If these 3 develop in to superstars, we WILL win premierships. They WILL bring guys like Jones, Petted and Moloney up to another level (not a-grade, but close enough), plus help Grimes and Morton hold on to the A-grade tag that they are very close to reaching.

We ALL need to face the facts, our premiership hopes in the next decade hang on the progress of Watts, Scully and Trengove. If I were the development coach at the MFC, I will be doing anything I can to make sure these 3 reach their potential, the rest of the list will need work, but will naturally progress with 3 stars along side of them. We will not win a flag until these kids (Scully, Watts, Trengove) become men. The team will look and play totally different when those 3 our our marquee players, with Grimes and Morton (proven), and hopefully Tapscott, Strauss, Gysberts and Blease being part of "that" midfield. If anyone else puts their hand up over that time, which I'm sure there will be becuase of the amount of ball that will be given to them, THAT is the cream on top.

[Johnny Karate 559]

Yes but he's on his 3rd year & we expect a better performance in Round 1 - where was the fire & passion ?

Bailey talks well & I'm sure he interviews well but we don't know if he can coach or not.

A cardboard cut out could have slashed the list like he has - that requires no skill.

Tactically he is disappointing & he was very poor last week and he has not yet been able to develop player like Dunn, Miller, Newton & others.

From where I sat on Saturday we started pretty well, won the first centre clearance with ease and moved it forward quickly to have two scoring shots and the Hawks on the back foot quickly. As the game settled our players made mistakes - the B graders were exposed, the Hawks stars began to shine and we got smashed.

I would argue that a cardboard cut out probably could've coached the Cats over the past three years. It's the coach's job to show the players the path, it's up to the players to walk it. IMO Bailey deserves to be judged on that basis over the next 43 games.

Tactically, Bailey at the moment seems to be coaching for the long term. As another poster pointed out it may have been better game day tactics to play a Bartram or Dunn on Luke Hodge in a purely negative role rather than Jack Grimes who currently is better suited to a back flank or loose man in defence role.

The team is currently like a building project that isn't much more advanced than ground zero, it looks ugly, there will still be some terrible days where we wonder if it's worth the while but hopefully the finished product is a grand design that we can all revel in.

[Daemn 2]

effectively we didnt use the draft after 1999 till about 2006 where we have frawley, petterd and garland

these are the blokes taken in the various drafts that remain on our list (ie, these blokes are the pick of the picks in a sense), only mclean i think is not on the list is of any value at other clubs.

2005 12 Nathan Jones Melbourne

2005 60 Clint Bartram Melbourne

2004 13 Matthew Bate Melbourne

2004 15 Lynden Dunn Melbourne

2004 Matthew Warnock Rookie Melbourne

2003 3 Colin Sylvia Melbourne

2003 Aaron Davey Rookie Melbourne

2002 14 Daniel Bell Melbourne

2002 26 Jared Rivers Melbourne

2001 55 Brad Miller Melbourne

2001 Mark Jamar Rookie Melbourne

these blokes should form the backbone of our club, but there isnt much there to be honest. 2000, 01, 02, 03, 04, 05. 6 years of drafting and probably sylvia and davey are of any note. that is the black hole of the melbourne football club. not the 2008-10 bailey years.

Bailey took the job knowing what he was in for. He backed himself and thus sold the club on being able to make the above players better plus developing draftees for long-term. Club knew players who were drafted in Bailey's first 3 years would not impact bigger picture like above names. Bailey talked the talk...now he needs to get the above names playing for him, otherwise he will be another coach on the scrapheap who backed the wrong donkeys...see D Frawley & T Wallace as examples.

[Johnny Karate 559]

Bailey talked the talk...now he needs to get the above names playing for him, otherwise he will be another coach on the scrapheap who backed the wrong donkeys...see D Frawley & T Wallace as examples.

The above names are not star players. Some are good B grade players most are not even AFL standard. Under Bailey; Sylvia, Bate and Davey have definitely improved as well as Jones to some extent. I can't really think of any players who have backwards that were not already limited or in decline during the twilight of Danihers era.

Bailey has backed youth in the effort to develop enough of the 2008-2010 crop to become stars and others good B graders, that is his next challenge, he deserves the next two years to be judged upon whether he can achieve that IMO.

[Felix 92]

Russell Robertson has kicked 15 goals in two matches playing for the Shepparton Swans.

[Johnny Karate 559]

Bump.

I guess last week was probably the antithesis of the round one performance. I've been proud of the way the club and coach have handled themselves since.

The dark days are becoming gradually few and far between and hopefully the great performances like last Sunday are not one offs. I don't think we'll make it (this year) but it would be almost unbelievable to think four months ago that, we'd be a sneaky chance at the eight.

We've improved. We won 7 out of 44 games through 08/09 and have just about doubled that with 5 rounds to go this year.

Lets look at the games in isolation.

R1 Hawks

Terrible loss but in hindsight we didn't turn up our toes in junktime and get massacred by over 100pts this would've been the norm in 08 and to some extent 09.

R2 Pies

Gallant loss good backs-to-the-wall performance after round 1 debacle

R3 Crows

Hard fought, ugly and important win needed to set the competitive tone for our season.

R4 Tigers

Smashed and gleefully handed the baton to the new worst team in the competition, a solid performance.

R5 Lions

Destroyed an undefeated team our first outrageous win under Bailey.

R6 Roos

Really disappointing after the previous 3 weeks - outplayed but fought it out.

R7 Dogs

Unlucky not to get the points in this one, a creditable performance against a good side.

R8 Eagles

Second debacle of the year - looked asleep most of the game and just didn't put pressure on anyone in an Eagles jumper, on balance probable worse than the Hawthorn loss.

R9 Port

Bounced back with a good win on foreign soil

R10 Cats

Smashed at Skilled - ho-hum

R11 Blues

Another poor performance but credit to Carlton they jumped us and kept the advantage

R12 Pies

Drawn game - could've gone either way, another good competitive performance.

R13 Crows

Smashed at AAMI disappointing but not totally unexpected.

Round 14 Saints

Ground down but still made them earn it

R15 Bombers

Good solid win

R16 Freo

Poor start cost us, but brilliant fightback, just couldn't squeeze in front

R17 Swans

A grade performance - the benchmark so far

This year, I would say that in all games except the Hawks, Cats, Saints and Crows - our best football has given us a sniff. Hawks, Eagles and Crows were the most disappointing losses contextually IMO. The players within the side have grown too - its easy to see why Scully, Trengove, Watts, Frawley and Morton went so high in the drafts - all have A-grade potential IMO. Green, Moloney and James McDonald have all lead the side well as senior players also. The future looks bright. Much has been made of poor starts/fadeouts (see Port & Ess games) but the way I see it is the team are uncompetitive for 25% of a game now instead of probably 60-75% during games in the 08/09 period.

Bailey has done a good job so far and has deserved his end of 2011 extension. After Jurrah and Morton going down compounded by a winless pre-season I felt that 6 wins in season 2010 was par - it's been achieved with five games to go.

Edited July 27, 2010 by Jimmi C

[Deetective Sgt. Taggert 389]

When you look at each game in isolation you can really see the inconsistency of our performances this year, which is not surprising for a young side. But its fair to say that the last 4 weeks, starting from the collingwood match there has been an upwards trajectory culminating in the fantastic win last week. Hopefully the boys can maintain an upwards trend for the rest of the season, whether it means winnings games or just more quarters doesn't really matter to me. Perhaps Bailey should consider Hardwick's approach of telling his team to forget about the previous 9 (?) losses and pretending the season starts now

Edited July 27, 2010 by Ascobar

[H_T 3,043]

Good summary of the season. Agree with everything.