holes in our list?

[Yencks 8]

This is our last draft to really have a red hot go at addressing the so called "holes" in our list...

Now, I am strongly in the "take the best available" camp, but if this draft was purely about trying to address the gaps in our list, I would say we have at least 3 holes that need to be coverred.

1) A good tap ruckman that does not suck around the ground

2) A big bustling forward to crash packs (will Watts be big enough to be this player? could Martin?)

3) At least 1 highly rated midfielder

is there any chance that this draft might be able to cover these areas?

[Mousey 47]

The perfect draft would be-

1- Tom Scully

2- Jack Trengrove or Butcher

17- Jack Fitzpatrick or Vardy

[sylvinator 96]

Love this analysis!

This is how I see our list---

Tall defenders: Warnock, Frawley, Rivers, Garland and Martin

Small defenders: Cheney

Utility/ flankers: Morton, Pettard, Dunn, McNamara, Buckley, Bail

Midfielders: Mclean, Sylvia, Davey, Jones, Moloney, Bruce, Green, Grimes, Bartram, Bennel, Clease, Strauss, McKenzie*

Medium forwards: Bate, Maric, Jetta

Small forwards: Wonaeamirri

Tall forwards: Watts, Jurrah, Miller, Newton

Ruckes: Jamar, PJ, Meesan, Spenser*

From this I would see our most urgent issues (in order of most important to least important):

1) A gun midfielder, idealy 2 gun midfielders. Our midfield lacks any outstanding prospects.

2) A power tall forward to complement Jurrah and Watts.

3) A small defender, capable of playing on the oposition gun quick forward

4) A true small forward who is quick and can crumb (ala Betts or Milne)

5) A quality ruckman... we can get by with our current group, but nothing special

IMO----

Pick 1 & 2: two gun midfielders

Pick 3: best available tall forward

pick 4: best available small defender

pick 5: best available indiginous small forward

pick 6: best available stopper defensive defender

[LITTLE STINGA 1]

PRIORITES

1 - MIDFIELDERS

2 - KEY FORWARD

3 - PACE

4 - RUCKMAN

[Scully The Tank Engine 0]

I pretty much agree with what's been said...

I do think that the 2 key weaknesses are,

1. Power forward - someone like a Jarryd Roughead who can take a contested mark and kick 4 goals most weeks. Who's main role is to take marks inside 50 and kick goals, while taking some of the heat off the medium forwards like Bate & Jurrah. We need a power forward so that we don't have to rely on Watts to be the focal point inside 50. I'd like to see Watts given license to roam up the ground, switching between midfield and forwardline. I honestly believe he'll develop into a damaging midfielder (in addition to a quality forward). But without a quality power forward, we'll need him to spend the majority of the time playing as a lead up forward, and consequently we won't get full value for his abilities.

2. Inside/Outside gun midfielder - A versatile mid with good pace that's as comfortable playing as a receiver as he is playing as a ball getter. Must have elite skills by hand and foot and be an excellent decision maker.

I agree that we could do with upgrading our ruck stocks, but for now I think a combination of Jamar/Martin/Spencer can do an adequate job until we possibly trade a draft pick for a quality ruckman somewhere down the track. Its not the most urgent need IMO..At any rate, I don't like using early picks for ruckman because some of them don't make the grade.

The small defender issue, I still think Bartram could be used on the Betts's & Milne's of this world. He's got the pace to go with them and he does the defensive things pretty well.

As for a crumbing forward, i guess you mean like a 'poacher' or something. I think Wonaemerri and Maric, while probably not fitting exactly that description would do a good job. There is a down-side to those sort of players (Milne/Betts,etc..) in that the forwardline pressure isn't always there. I think Aussie can kick the opportunitistic goals, but also his tackling and pressure inside attacking 50 are also very good. So i mean, i'd rather have an 'allround' small forward like Aussie than a poacher like Betts tbh.

Edited August 7, 2009 by Scully The Tank Engine

[rpfc 28,779]

The following players have, in my view, shown enough (or had good enough junior wraps) to be considered apart of our flag winning future:

Watts, Blease, Strauss, Bennell, Maric, Jetta, Morton, Cheney, Grimes, Wonaeamirri, Jurrah, Frawley, Petterd, Garland, Jones, Bate, Martin, McLean, Sylvia, Rivers, Warnock, Moloney, Davey, and Jamar. That is 24 with an extra two or three in the coming draft.

The following players I have major, or minor, queries but are still a chance:

McNamara, Spencer, Bail, Batram, Dunn, Buckley, Valenti, Meesen, and Miller.

The last few are players I see playing no part in that flag tilt:

Newton, Bell, Johnson, Green, Bruce, Wheatley, Whelan, Robertson, and McDonald.

There are plenty of holes to fill when 16 on your primary list (and two rookies) have serious question marks on them.

Rivers Warnock Cheney

Garland Frawley Bennell

Davey McLean Morton

Sylvia Watts Petterd

Bate Jurrah Wonaeamirri

Jamar, Grimes, Moloney

Martin Maric Jetta Jones Strauss Blease

With that team, while looking very promising, the midfield is still slow, but I am a believer that a quick mind can be just a dangerous as some quick feet.

The forward line is a bit small, but again, a lot will rest on delivery into the forward line. But, I understand the allure of a tall target to create a contest. Is Jurrah that player? I'm not sure.

Rucks are fine in my opinion; Jamar has not played a bad game agianst anyone this year and Martin could be a fantastically versatile back-up rukman until he's 30 (also has impressive HO-to-advantage levels). Meesen and Spencer have a good chance of coming on.

Impressive backline, possibly requiring a bit of depth.

My idea of what the club needs in terms of urgency - speed with good delivery in midfield, depth in backline smalls, and another forward target.

[LITTLE STINGA 1]

I agree that we could do with upgrading our ruck stocks, but for now I think a combination of Jamar/Martin/Spencer can do an adequate job until we possibly trade a draft pick for a quality ruckman somewhere down the track. Its not the most urgent need IMO..At any rate, I don't like using early picks for ruckman because some of them don't make the grade.

Just pick up a ruckman in the draft where the best ruckman come from. The rookie draft. I think Spencer will be a good player for us once he fixes up his kicking. Jamar is nothing special but does the job when he is fit which is not too often. We haven't exactly done well with trading for ruckman. Meeson has done very little and PJ has been one of the biggest disappointments of the year.

[e25 5]

Meesen = the forgotten man

[beelzebub 23,383]

The following players have, in my view, shown enough (or had good enough junior wraps) to be considered apart of our flag winning future:

Watts, Blease, Strauss, Bennell, Maric, Jetta, Morton, Cheney, Grimes, Wonaeamirri, Jurrah, Frawley, Petterd, Garland, Jones, Bate, Martin, McLean, Sylvia, Rivers, Warnock, Moloney, Davey, and Jamar. That is 24 with an extra two or three in the coming draft.

The following players I have major, or minor, queries but are still a chance:

McNamara, Spencer, Bail, Batram, Dunn, Buckley, Valenti, Meesen, and Miller.

The last few are players I see playing no part in that flag tilt:

Newton, Bell, Johnson, Green, Bruce, Wheatley, Whelan, Robertson, and McDonald.

There are plenty of holes to fill when 16 on your primary list (and two rookies) have serious question marks on them.

Rivers Warnock Cheney

Garland Frawley Bennell

Davey McLean Morton

Sylvia Watts Petterd

Bate Jurrah Wonaeamirri

Jamar, Grimes, Moloney

Martin Maric Jetta Jones Strauss Blease

With that team, while looking very promising, the midfield is still slow, but I am a believer that a quick mind can be just a dangerous as some quick feet.

The forward line is a bit small, but again, a lot will rest on delivery into the forward line. But, I understand the allure of a tall target to create a contest. Is Jurrah that player? I'm not sure.

Rucks are fine in my opinion; Jamar has not played a bad game agianst anyone this year and Martin could be a fantastically versatile back-up rukman until he's 30 (also has impressive HO-to-advantage levels). Meesen and Spencer have a good chance of coming on.

Impressive backline, possibly requiring a bit of depth.

My idea of what the club needs in terms of urgency - speed with good delivery in midfield, depth in backline smalls, and another forward target.

I suppose its entirley dependent onwhen youthink we will 'tilt' but I would definitely still consider Green to be an integral part of a challenging team. His class and poise wold see him well suited to a cruisey wing type role especiallyif hes released from other duties by a beter supporting midfield outfit. ffs hes one of the better kicks we have and seldomreallystufs up his decision making. For mine hes a keeper til he retires in about 4 years

[titan_uranus 25,043]

We should take the two best players with our first two picks. That means Scully (if we have pick 1), and then the next best of the rest. If that's another midfielder, then good. If that's Butcher or another forward, then that will work too.

If neither are KPP, our next pick probably should be a KPP. But I don't know much about who's available.

[rpfc 28,779]

I suppose its entirley dependent onwhen youthink we will 'tilt' but I would definitely still consider Green to be an integral part of a challenging team. His class and poise wold see him well suited to a cruisey wing type role especiallyif hes released from other duties by a beter supporting midfield outfit. ffs hes one of the better kicks we have and seldomreallystufs up his decision making. For mine hes a keeper til he retires in about 4 years

It really all depends on when we challenge.

I think that Brad will be in the awful position that Ben Dixon found himself in when he retired just before Hawthorn became a top 4 team, and a flag chance.

I see us in that position when Watts has had 3 proper pre-seasons, as he will have to kick 60 goals for us to push into top 4 territory. That will mean 2012/2013 is when we make the fateful step from top 8 team to flag chance.

Green will be 31/32 and very near the end.

[Scully The Tank Engine 0]

Just pick up a ruckman in the draft where the best ruckman come from. The rookie draft. I think Spencer will be a good player for us once he fixes up his kicking. Jamar is nothing special but does the job when he is fit which is not too often. We haven't exactly done well with trading for ruckman. Meeson has done very little and PJ has been one of the biggest disappointments of the year.

Yep. Rookie draft or late 2nd round onwards...Also remember that Meesen went at pick 8 in his draft year of 04!!! Just 3 spots behind Lance Franklin. So, i mean ruckman are an even bigger gamble than KPP. As you said, I think the best course of action would be to develop young ruckmen from the rookie list, or with a late pick.

As we get closer to our 'flag window' we can always trade a late 1st round pick for a proven ruckman if need be. Because all the clubs are pretty much in the same boat, developing a bunch of ruckmen and not necessarily knowing which one's will make it, clubs can end up being overstocked, like how Sydney traded pick 14 for Darren Jolly when we had White, Simmonds and Jolly on the books...

[beelzebub 23,383]

It really all depends on when we challenge.

I think that Brad will be in the awful position that Ben Dixon found himself in when he retired just before Hawthorn became a top 4 team, and a flag chance.

I see us in that position when Watts has had 3 proper pre-seasons, as he will have to kick 60 goals for us to push into top 4 territory. That will mean 2012/2013 is when we make the fateful step from top 8 team to flag chance.

Green will be 31/32 and very near the end.

very possibly right.. I think Brad shouldbe able to hold his position, if fit for definitely 2-3 and possibly 4 years . Beyond 4 years.. I agree probably not. If we are in that enviable "window" where it really looks like we could have a crack thenhis ( Green ) maturity and calm might be just whats needed. After all......we know only too well GF's are anentirely different game

[H_T 3,049]

PRIORITES

1 - MIDFIELDERS

2 - KEY FORWARD

3 - PACE

4 - RUCKMAN

1 - Scully

2 - Butcher/Trengove/Morabito

3 - Colyer

4 - ?

[jacey 333]

Green will be 31/32 and very near the end.

Bgreen could still play forward at 31/32. That's where i think he should be playing next year anyway.

[darkhorse72 1,925]

basically we pick the best players we can with our picks. If a player is one of the "best" available he'll be talented enough to play in more than one position.

AS for a ruck, we just need one that breaks even over a match and we'll be right, most ruckmen dont start to get goo till their mid twenties when their bodies finish growing and the brains catch up with their hands and feet

[Adam The God 30,420]

The small defender issue, I still think Bartram could be used on the Betts's & Milne's of this world. He's got the pace to go with them and he does the defensive things pretty well.

I still believe Bennell is the quickest player I've ever seen. He could easily develop into that player and rotate through the middle.

As for a crumbing forward, i guess you mean like a 'poacher' or something. I think Wonaemerri and Maric, while probably not fitting exactly that description would do a good job. There is a down-side to those sort of players (Milne/Betts,etc..) in that the forwardline pressure isn't always there. I think Aussie can kick the opportunitistic goals, but also his tackling and pressure inside attacking 50 are also very good. So i mean, i'd rather have an 'allround' small forward like Aussie than a poacher like Betts tbh.

You've also got Jurrah who can do it all. In the air, on the lead and on the ground. Versitility is what we need. Makes you very hard to match up on. It's certainly what Bailey is promoting. Furthermore, with a bit of confidence and when he feels he belongs, Watts will be able to get the ball on the deck too.

[Adam The God 30,420]

A number of people seem to be addressing the idea of having a stay at home full forward, who basically does nothing else but provide a target inside 50 and kick 4 to 5 goals a game. Is Butcher not that player then? It's funny, because people have knocked Butcher for being one dimensional, yet a lot of supporters seem to want a stay at home full forward. Which do we want?

Edited August 7, 2009 by AdamFarr

[Adam The God 30,420]

Meesen and Spencer have a good chance of coming on.

Spencer excites me. He's raw, but he has a lot of upside.

Impressive backline, possibly requiring a bit of depth.

My idea of what the club needs in terms of urgency - speed with good delivery in midfield, depth in backline smalls, and another forward target.

I don't think we lack depth in our backline. That is the one area of the ground that we do have depth. The beauty of guys like Frawley and Garland is their ability to play on smalls, as well as the bigger guys.

Edited August 7, 2009 by AdamFarr

[Ryan Dee 140]

Meesen = the forgotten man

He was starting to get raps just before he went down with an injury. Should be good for us in the future.

Just pick up a ruckman in the draft where the best ruckman come from. The rookie draft. I think Spencer will be a good player for us once he fixes up his kicking. Jamar is nothing special but does the job when he is fit which is not too often. We haven't exactly done well with trading for ruckman. Meeson has done very little and PJ has been one of the biggest disappointments of the year.

I don't see much point in picking up another ruckman so late in the draft or in the rookie draft, Would just dead weight. Messen and Jamar will be our 2 ruckman next year and years to come and they will do the job. Spencer is raw and they can develope him along and see what we get. Not to much point in getting another ruckman like spencer who we have to develope. If we need to im sure we have enough tallent along the line which we can trade for one. I dont rate them very highly anyway. You dont need star ruckman only ones who does the job. Ohhh and Martin who will chip in if needed.

Edited August 7, 2009 by Mr Morton

[LITTLE STINGA 1]

I don't see much point in picking up another ruckman so late in the draft or in the rookie draft, Would just dead weight. Messen and Jamar will be our 2 ruckman next year and years to come and they will do the job. Spencer is raw and they can develope him along and see what we get. Not to much point in getting another ruckman like spencer who we have to develope. If we need to im sure we have enough tallent along the line which we can trade for one. I dont rate them very highly anyway. You dont need star ruckman only ones who does the job. Ohhh and Martin who will chip in if needed.

So Meeson is a sure thing is he? He's played a hand full of games. PJ was more impressive last year than Meeson has been this year and now no one wants him. Jamar can never string games together. I'm not convinced that Martin is a ruckman. It's worth trying him there but I'm convinced that he is a CHB that's not getting a fair go cause they prefer a player living on his past glory's in Rivers. Spencer is the only one I have faith in and he's still not on our senior list permanately yet. I can't see how another ruckman would be dead weight but they shouldn't be the major priority of the club either.

[Ryan Dee 140]

So Meeson is a sure thing is he? He's played a hand full of games. PJ was more impressive last year than Meeson has been this year and now no one wants him. Jamar can never string games together. I'm not convinced that Martin is a ruckman. It's worth trying him there but I'm convinced that he is a CHB that's not getting a fair go cause they prefer a player living on his past glory's in Rivers. Spencer is the only one I have faith in and he's still not on our senior list permanately yet. I can't see how another ruckman would be dead weight but they shouldn't be the major priority of the club either.

Bit harsh on Jamar, if it wasn't for his injury's this year we would see good consistant form from him. All of his games this year have been really good though. Nothing is a sure thing and another ruckman at a late pick wont be any different. 1 Solid ruck ( Jamar ) and 3 Projects, cant see us making it 4.

[LITTLE STINGA 1]

Bit harsh on Jamar, if it wasn't for his injury's this year we would see good consistant form from him. All of his games this year have been really good though. Nothing is a sure thing and another ruckman at a late pick wont be any different. 1 Solid ruck ( Jamar ) and 3 Projects, cant see us making it 4.

When has Jamar had an injury free season? I'm confident that he hasn't had one. Johnson has been around long enough now not to be consided a project ruckman he's either gonna make or he's not, ATM he's not. Meeson's even more injury prone than Jamar. For me it's 2 injury prone ruckman, 1 ruckman that has gone backwards and 1 project. That's enough of a concern for me to want another ruckman no matter how good or bad he is.

[Ryan Dee 140]

When has Jamar had an injury free season? I'm confident that he hasn't had one. Johnson has been around long enough now not to be consided a project ruckman he's either gonna make or he's not, ATM he's not. Meeson's even more injury prone than Jamar. For me it's 2 injury prone ruckman, 1 ruckman that has gone backwards and 1 project. That's enough of a concern for me to want another ruckman no matter how good or bad he is.

Most ruckman are. Id say most of the ruckman in the comp have not played every game. Although your right they have both had long term injury's or a lot of weeks out. I was Including Martin not PJ. PJ is close to out for me. Martin use to play ruck at Sandy I'm pretty sure. I suppose we will find out what they do come draft time. I think you cant be scared off by injury's but it is a fact. Time will tell.

[Doggo 32]

So Meeson is a sure thing is he? He's played a hand full of games. PJ was more impressive last year than Meeson has been this year and now no one wants him. Jamar can never string games together. I'm not convinced that Martin is a ruckman. It's worth trying him there but I'm convinced that he is a CHB that's not getting a fair go cause they prefer a player living on his past glory's in Rivers. Spencer is the only one I have faith in and he's still not on our senior list permanately yet. I can't see how another ruckman would be dead weight but they shouldn't be the major priority of the club either.

Agree with this post completely, bar the Rivers comment, but that's just a difference in opinion of one player, although i understand what you're saying. Martin is probably best used as a defender, but because of his size and versatility, and the emergence of Frawley, he's just plugged holes this year wherever needed. Good to know he is versatile enough to play a number of roles, but how much of the chopping and changing is aiding his development, and conversely, how much is it hindering it? Brad Miller springs to mind when pondering that question. Eventually he needs to be settled down in one position, hopefully as of next year IMO.

Good point about PJ; only his most ardent supporters (just Dappa Dan and myself now) are standing by him, whereas last year popular opinion was that he would turn out alright. Not everyone agreed, but the rate at which 'supporters' of his have jumped off the bandwagon is very alarming. He rarely made a mistake last year, but it only shows how fickle good form and confidence can be at times. I've rated the guy since juniors, but even i am starting to lose patience.

On Meesen, i'm surprised at how many people have him as a definite part of our future. The 4 matches he played this year were ok/good, but he didn't set the world on fire by any means. But he was coming off such a low base that any improvement he showed would have been plenty. Remember, for the best part of a whole season in '08 he was not able to assert himself as even a quality VFL ruckman, and he only got his 4 games this year because he was the last man standing with Spencer and Jamar injured. Spencer is the 'great hope' of the current lot, because he is so raw and the fact that he is relatively untried. Meesen, like PJ and Jamar (despite his huge improvement), have not shown themselves to be consistently of AFL standard or above VFL standard as yet. PJ and Jamar are guns at VFL level, Meesen's form at Sandy last year was flaky. He's far from as definite as some have made him out to be.

And funny as this sounds, but i reckon had he not got injured, he probably wouldn't be as lauded as he has been by many supporters on the forums. He would have played more games and most likely, been exposed with deficiencies he'd shown in the 20+ odd VFL games he played before his debut.

Better the devil you don't know perhaps?