Trade/Draft room

[Kit Walker 225]

...

I don't think forward structures have changed that much. The emphasis on forward pressure has certainly increased, but great forwards like Dunstall, Ablett and Lockett always got the majority of their goals from the lead.

Teams do need a target though, particularly when the pressure increases. The query over Geelong and the dogs is their lack of this - form in the case of Geelong and anyone in the case of the WB. If anything, it emphasises just how important a fit and in-form Cameron Mooney is to Geelong.

It isn't a matter of it being the only option, but it needs to be an option otherwise you have to rely on precision kicking which is exceptionally difficult under finals pressure.

The player doesn't even have to be a star, they just have to be capable of forcing a contest and being a target. Quinten Lynch is no star (although he has gone up in my estimation this year), but he played this role very well for the eagles in their premiership year. Most of the other premiership teams, at least over the last decade, have had at least one star key forward.

[dee-luded 2,959]

Does no one rate James Craig as a ruckman?

All the talk has seemed to be Vardy, but Craig seems ok also.

He's also been named by Jason McCartney as 'probably the leading ruckman in the competition'.

Yep,I do, from the games I witnessed him play he was very good. I'm concerned he might be a bit short as a ruck, but as a follower I think he's great.

I wonder if he's a bit of a McEvoy type.

[dee-luded 2,959]

Whats people veiw on that hooper kid, larke medalist seemed a very good ball winnerof half back.

Yet no mentions of him at all is he eligible?

Way too small & slow for a defender, a tough little nuggety type. I reckon he could only be an in & under mid. He would have to be another Diesel Williams IMO to get anywhere.

Edited August 15, 2009 by dee-luded

[biggestred 5,094]

jamar to the hawks for pick 7 anyone? IN A HEARTBEAT

[flog 20]

all this talk of trying to get a new ruckman to our club has got me thinking. James Blake is out of favour with geelong and may become an option especially with our psp. Not sure what people think of him but he is young and developing. Some times players need a new start and maybe melbourne can provide this. Im not conviced he will be a good player but if we could get him for nothing it might be an option

[Dappa Dan 2,188]

all this talk of trying to get a new ruckman to our club has got me thinking. James Blake is out of favour with geelong and may become an option especially with our psp. Not sure what people think of him but he is young and developing. Some times players need a new start and maybe melbourne can provide this. Im not conviced he will be a good player but if we could get him for nothing it might be an option

No. For nothing, maybe he'd be useful. But he's just another mediocre ruckman if we were to get him.

[Jerry Lundergard 420]

all this talk of trying to get a new ruckman to our club has got me thinking. James Blake is out of favour with geelong and may become an option especially with our psp. Not sure what people think of him but he is young and developing. Some times players need a new start and maybe melbourne can provide this. Im not conviced he will be a good player but if we could get him for nothing it might be an option

He might be alright. I've heard he gets great top spin on his taps.

[Al`s DEMONS 0]

Collingwood, Geelong & Bulldogs don't seem to have "Power Forwards". Yet they all have very good midfields. And good small forwards. Power Forwards are important, but so are really good midfields with 'handy forwards'.

It would be fantastic to have both.

PIES: Swan, Davis, Pendlebury, O'Bree, Didak, Thomas

CATS: Ablett, Bartel, Corey, Kelly, Selwood, Ling..,..,

DOGS: Cooney, Griffen, Cross, Boyd, Aker

DEES: McLean, Jones, Moloney, Sylvia, McDonald

Let's get Scully, Trengove...

who does Chapman and Stevie J play for ?, those two posses class in spades. Ive said before Morton should study Goodes , Sylvia should look at the other two. set some goals and dont let anything get in the way

Edited August 14, 2009 by Al`s DEMONS

[RalphiusMaximus 6,054]

Collingwood, Geelong & Bulldogs don't seem to have "Power Forwards".

Collingwood have Travis Cloke in the side and Anthony Rocca waiting for another chance. There is also Anthony taking marks and kicking goals up there. You can't realistically be claiming that they play with an undersized forward line?

Geelong have both Mooney and Hawkins in the forward group. Ottens too when he's fit. Again, not exactly small units.

The Bulldogs are not now and will not be in the near future a serious threat to the GF precisely because they have no decent KPFs. They have been trying for years to get by with a small agile group of forwards on the back of a highly skilled running midfield, and it simply doesn't work. They are able to come very close, but at the pointy end of the season they are consistently beaten by sides with better balance.

Basically, what I'm getting at here is that while the game is evolving, there are certain basic truths that will keep coming to the fore. Bookends are not a luxury or an anachronism, they are a necessity if you are going to win flags. The game as it is played now requires them to be able to run, tackle and perform any number of other tasks, but the essence of their role is the same now as ever.

With this in mind, I can certainly see room for another KPF in our lineup. Twin towers filling FF and CHF would allow Bate and Jurrah to roam free in a midsized role ans leave room for rotating smalls in the form of Maric, Wona and random midfielders who need a rest.

Of course, none of this is to say that we need to use pick 2 for Butcher. I would honestly be happy with either he or Trengrove. I have faith in our recruiting staff to be much better informed than anyone on this forum, and as such have to believe that they will make the best decision for our club. But if we went for Trengrove (or Morabito or Rowan) with pick 2, I'd very much like to see 18 used on a KPF.

[LITTLE STINGA 1]

all this talk of trying to get a new ruckman to our club has got me thinking. James Blake is out of favour with geelong and may become an option especially with our psp. Not sure what people think of him but he is young and developing. Some times players need a new start and maybe melbourne can provide this. Im not conviced he will be a good player but if we could get him for nothing it might be an option

It's Mark Blake, James Blake plays for the Saints. I think it would be a waste of a pick but I don't think it's out of the question. I suppose it depends on how much Bailey rates ruckman. I would have him ahead of Seaby but not ahead of Maric.

Edited August 15, 2009 by BROCKSTAR5

[RalphiusMaximus 6,054]

all this talk of trying to get a new ruckman to our club has got me thinking. James Blake is out of favour with geelong and may become an option especially with our psp. Not sure what people think of him but he is young and developing. Some times players need a new start and maybe melbourne can provide this. Im not conviced he will be a good player but if we could get him for nothing it might be an option

If nothing else he'd throw everything at the Cats when we played them. There have to be some hurt feelings there after the way they've treated him.

[Bonkers 994]

I'de delist or trade Miller & Bartram, they add nothing while they have possession of the ball and skills and footy smarts is the area we are falling down predominantly. If we can get any sort of trade I'de be happy, if they go through to the Pre-Season draft so be it.

Also does anyone think that Hawthorn would be interested in a trade for Jared Rivers and Paul Johnson for their 1st rnd pick and a later pick say rnd 4? Only reason I say this is Hawthorn are short a backman due to Croad being crocked and they have also lost faith in all of their ruckman. I would have thought they would be pretty interested in Rivers at least however Johnson is more doubtful.

I'de also like to get opinions on the market value for Brock McLean at the moment, if he hasn't been injured this year I'de be very worried as his disposal has been terrible throughout. The other reason is we have two many slow mid-fielders at the moment. Having too many slow mids appears to be a liability the way AFL is played currently.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

I'de delist or trade Miller & Bartram, they add nothing while they have possession of the ball and skills and footy smarts is the area we are falling down predominantly. If we can get any sort of trade I'de be happy, if they go through to the Pre-Season draft so be it.

Also does anyone think that Hawthorn would be interested in a trade for Jared Rivers and Paul Johnson for their 1st rnd pick and a later pick say rnd 4? Only reason I say this is Hawthorn are short a backman due to Croad being crocked and they have also lost faith in all of their ruckman. I would have thought they would be pretty interested in Rivers at least however Johnson is more doubtful.

I'de also like to get opinions on the market value for Brock McLean at the moment, if he hasn't been injured this year I'de be very worried as his disposal has been terrible throughout. The other reason is we have two many slow mid-fielders at the moment. Having too many slow mids appears to be a liability the way AFL is played currently.

Why would another Club trade for Bartram and Miller who are not best 22 in a rank awful side?

If Hawthorn have lost faith in all their ruckman then PJ will compound their problems.

Rivers is an interesting one though....

[H_T 3,047]

It's Mark Blake, James Blake plays for the Saints. I think it would be a waste of a pick but I don't think it's out of the question. I suppose it depends on how much Bailey rates ruckman. I would have him ahead of Seaby but not ahead of Maric.

James Blake also plays for the USA on the ATP International Tennis Circuit...

[H_T 3,047]

Rivers is an interesting one though....

Are you hot to trot on the Rivers-Hale trade?:D

[LITTLE STINGA 1]

James Blake also plays for the USA on the ATP International Tennis Circuit...

It is the name of the tennis player. Jason Blake plays for the Saints. I was gonna get it right eventually.

[Old Gregg 1]

Collingwood, Geelong & Bulldogs don't seem to have "Power Forwards". Yet they all have very good midfields. And good small forwards. Power Forwards are important, but so are really good midfields with 'handy forwards'.

It would be fantastic to have both.

PIES: Swan, Davis, Pendlebury, O'Bree, Didak, Thomas

CATS: Ablett, Bartel, Corey, Kelly, Selwood, Ling..,..,

DOGS: Cooney, Griffen, Cross, Boyd, Aker

DEES: McLean, Jones, Moloney, Sylvia, McDonald

Let's get Scully, Trengove...

I really don't see the point in arguing about this anymore. Most people in the "two mids" camp would also take Panos at 18. So we're going to have this big forward anyway, aren't we? Then what's the point of talking about midfields and forward structures, if we're going to (hopefully) have our cake and eat it? There are too many contradictions by some posters.

[H_T 3,047]

I really don't see the point in arguing about this anymore. Most people in the "two mids" camp would also take Panos at 18. So we're going to have this big forward anyway, aren't we? Then what's the point of talking about midfields and forward structures, if we're going to (hopefully) have our cake and eat it? There are too many contradictions by some posters.

Fwiw I have not mentioned Panos nor do I agree.

[Mono 455]

..........

Also does anyone think that Hawthorn would be interested in a trade for Jared Rivers ..........

I'de also like to get opinions on the market value for Brock McLean at the moment, if he hasn't been injured this year I'de be very worried as his disposal has been terrible throughout. The other reason is we have two many slow mid-fielders at the moment. Having too many slow mids appears to be a liability the way AFL is played currently.

You make 2 interesting points.

The Rivers angle is a new one to me. Hawthorn may well be interested in him. They are short a central defender, and we are flush with them atm. Hmmmm. I'd bet Maguire at the Saints may be in their sights, and a cheaper/easier trade.

The McLean/mids angle is not new, but with Scully and possibly Trengove, as well as Blease and Strauss (and McKenzie & Valenti as rookies), we are over the odds with mids (especially the inside/hard-at-it type - McLean, Moloney, Jones (& Valenti)). I don't think there is room for them all in a 22. I'm thinking 1 of McLean, Moloney or Jones may well be traded. As Moloney is the oldest at 25, my guess is that McLean & Jones will attract the most interest.

Folks should think -apart from the go-home trades, most trades are the result of a side having a surplus of one type of player - good players who can't get a game (think Maguire at the Saints & Moloney at the Cats before he came to the MFC). Maybe Jones at Melbourne?

[Adam The God 30,261]

Collingwood, Geelong & Bulldogs don't seem to have "Power Forwards". Yet they all have very good midfields. And good small forwards. Power Forwards are important, but so are really good midfields with 'handy forwards'.

It would be fantastic to have both.

PIES: Swan, Davis, Pendlebury, O'Bree, Didak, Thomas

CATS: Ablett, Bartel, Corey, Kelly, Selwood, Ling..,..,

DOGS: Cooney, Griffen, Cross, Boyd, Aker

DEES: McLean, Jones, Moloney, Sylvia, McDonald

Let's get Scully, Trengove...

I agree, HT. And if we get those two, it takes more pressure of Davey, who can then push up into this core group of top midfielders.

It could look more like:

Scully, Trengove, Sylvia, Davey, Morton, Grimes.

[Adam The God 30,261]

Just wanted to pick up on this, because it's got missed.

If the aim is to get the ball to a forward within kicking distance, the high bomb to CHF is the laziest, most indisciplined, lowest percentage way of doing this. The defence will sweep it away almost every time, and guys like Maxwell have built a career on cutting off these VFL-reserves-standard attacks.

Yet some people want a "power forward" or "tall forward". Having a high-marking forward who manages to hold a pack-breaking mark every few games or so (which always gets on the highlights reel) is what actually encourages these useless high bombs in the first place.

The so-called "power forwards" like Riewoldt, Brown, Fev, Buddy et al get most of their goals through leads and one-on-one contests, not pack-breakers. Anyone who bombs it to them would be breaking team rules, unless it's down there so fast that they're one-on-one with no chance of being double-teamed. They get maybe 90% of their goals through other skills - speed off the mark, timing, strong hands, being able to lose opponents, being able to hold one's ground in body-on-body, kicking efficiency - rather than their ability to take packs marks or the occasional specky. If you're forcing your key forwards to bust packs to get the ball, you're in trouble.

A forward line with Watts Jurrah Bate PLUS another tall would risk being top-heavy, unless the other tall had these other skills in abundance.

I couldn't agree more, Akum.

Edited August 15, 2009 by AdamFarr

[Adam The God 30,261]

He might turn out ok (Bennell). To me he doesn't have that initial power sprint like Whelan used to have. Harbrow has that.

Yeah Cheney looks slow, but he is better in the air. Look I hope he proves em wrong. Isuppose Harbrow would come at cost. Like I said ujst a suggestion.

You obviously didn't see the Kangaroos game in Round 1 or the West Coast game at Subi. There were two distinct passages of play, where Bennell's pace was on display. Both of the plays were on the wing and both of them involved him attacking a contest fiercely and coming away with the ball. Even those two brief moments, provide a glimmer with which we can judge him, pace wise. He'll be a beauty. I have a slight question mark over his kicking accuracy, but he hasn't played enough to warrant worrying.

Edited August 15, 2009 by AdamFarr

[Adam The God 30,261]

I don't think forward structures have changed that much. The emphasis on forward pressure has certainly increased, but great forwards like Dunstall, Ablett and Lockett always got the majority of their goals from the lead.

Teams do need a target though, particularly when the pressure increases. The query over Geelong and the dogs is their lack of this - form in the case of Geelong and anyone in the case of the WB. If anything, it emphasises just how important a fit and in-form Cameron Mooney is to Geelong.

It isn't a matter of it being the only option, but it needs to be an option otherwise you have to rely on precision kicking which is exceptionally difficult under finals pressure.

The player doesn't even have to be a star, they just have to be capable of forcing a contest and being a target. Quinten Lynch is no star (although he has gone up in my estimation this year), but he played this role very well for the eagles in their premiership year. Most of the other premiership teams, at least over the last decade, have had at least one star key forward.

Paradoxically, I also agree with this to an extent. That said, my initial post stated the possibility of change in the game, not that it neccessarily will.

[Demondeb 8]

What about all the other rumours.......

No one knows for sure what will happen. It's Round 20 this week. I wouldn't swap pick 2. Not even for Chris Judd.

Me either!! Sure Judd is a champ but he is going to be well past his prime when we will be up challenging for the flag. Trengove and Scully will be running rampant by then and we will be enjoying the fruits of a rather ordinary 3 years and have no qualms about the losses we had to have.

I dont believe there is anyone I would want to trade for the#2 pick that we would REALISTICALLY be offered. Sure, we could hypothetically say Geelong will offer us Selwood or Ablett for pick 2 but we know we would have better chances of winning Lotto by ourselves individually. It wont happen.

I admit I havent really seen anything of Dangerfield and he may well be a gun and perhaps it might be a line ball decision but I stand by the keeping the two picks. It wont happen again - the PP like this. We are the last team to be able to take advantage ( hopefully) and its too golden an opportunity for my liking.

[H_T 3,047]

I dont believe there is anyone I would want to trade for the#2 pick that we would REALISTICALLY be offered. Sure, we could hypothetically say Geelong will offer us Selwood or Ablett for pick 2 but we know we would have better chances of winning Lotto by ourselves individually. It wont happen.

Indeed Demondeb.

I admit I havent really seen anything of Dangerfield and he may well be a gun and perhaps it might be a line ball decision but I stand by the keeping the two picks. It wont happen again - the PP like this. We are the last team to be able to take advantage ( hopefully) and its too golden an opportunity for my liking.

We can't let this slip now. A fantastic opportunity for all Melbourne supporters is now 11 days away.