The main problem with Bate is what's his best position? Curiously this was a big quesiton mark about him even before he was drafted...

Add Dunn to that query as well. And Sylvia, screw it, throw PJ in that category as well.

I've just read the other thread about Clint Bartram's Dad passing away. That is terrible news. Incredible effort to still turn up and play. The fact that he could hold his place and put in a reasonable effort under the circumstances says heaps for his strength of character.

Condolences to you Clint, and thanks for your game for MFC today!

Umpires - pathetic. They added to the dreadful evening by the inconsistencies and mistakes.

Some promising signs, we had them on toast except for chronic bad disposal, and missing easy marks and set-shots. And we could tackle harder and more effectively.

I hate the negative style the Crows play, and despite all the mistakes we still could have won. We're on the way!

Razor Ray was at his best today, not quite sure of what is going on but just itches to chuck the whistle in his mouth, says a bit about him I think....

Very promising and so annoying. Listened to Brocky on the radio after the game and as he said "handball happy" early, our rubbish (I need a new adjective) disposal in traffic kills us. Tackling is something we have improved considerably this season but as I mentioned couple of weeks ago we get brushed off tackles, and allow opponents to get there arms free to dispose of the ball to a team mate to often.

Aaaahhhhhh I call it soccer the game the Crows play, just a rolling 4-4-2 zone set up they will never win a flag playing that chit footy!

Dunn is a terrible footballer yet gets lauded by Melbourne supporters.

Amazing.

No he doesn't

Dunn is a terrible footballer yet gets lauded by Melbourne supporters.

Amazing.

I would not go as far as terrible, I was at "G" today, sitting just under the coached box, but it was what Dunn didnt do. Ok he kicked two goals. His chasing was non existant, he caused a free in the center before the bounce - he got sucked in by a crow, at time he look like a chook with his head cut off. At times he looked so lost.

IMO

next Week - out Newton, Jetta, Dunn, Bartram (Deepest Sympathy for the death of his dad today)

in Robbo, Maric, Cheney, (Grimes or bBell Who ever if right) if not Leave Dunn

Bate isn't a full forward. He is playing terrible football at the moment but it isn't helped by playing him deep in the forward line.

pettard looked more comfortable in the back line, I wonder how Bennell would go in the forward line?

The way our mids were kicking into the forward line it is no wonder you all think Bate is rubbish.

Midfield was really good today - won contested ball, broke even in clearances and Inside 50s, and had 61 tackles (althought the Crows had 84).

But they still don't deliver it to space, or to the right side of our forwards, although the rolling flood from the Crows didn't help.

Hopefully, we will see a more open game against the Cats.

a bit hard to kick to a forward line that was not there. At times the crows had as many as 6 players behind the ball

Very promising and so annoying. Listened to Brocky on the radio after the game and as he said "handball happy" early, our rubbish (I need a new adjective) disposal in traffic kills us. Tackling is something we have improved considerably this season but as I mentioned couple of weeks ago we get brushed off tackles, and allow opponents to get there arms free to dispose of the ball to a team mate to often.

Just on that interview, I was very happy to hear Brock saying that the team wants to take risks and play through the middle of the ground. Sometimes the risks don't work out, but it's a matter of risk versus reward. Good to know that Bailey is backing the players in. Yes at the moment we are not good enough to pull off the moves (like 80 handballs in a row, is never going to work), but I love that we try to bring the ball back through the middle and take our chances. That's good, entertaining, PREMIERSHIP WINNING footy.

The Crows will never win a premiership playing the sort of rubbish that they do.

I don't know whether this is such an issue with Dunn these days.

I haven't really seen him squib anything (may have missed it though), and he is really good below his knees and in close, and has a monster kick.

Bate is just a plodder. He is SO slow and the minute he loses the marking contest you just know we've lost it completely. I have no trust in him whatsoever when it comes to winning a loose ball off the deck, not because he won't try, but because he literally cannot bend, pick and run at the same time.

Love him as I may, he is not big or strong enough to compensate for his lack of pace.

Dunn plays 'small', not tall. Fair when the ball is on the turf, doesn't want to attack the ball or the pack off the ground.

Thats why, IMO, he's playing in the middle & tagging. Doesn't like to be the Hunted.

I think Bate needs a week off. Drop Bate and Newton and bring Robbo and Maric in.

So far, it has been a poor season from Bate in general. And Bate's mistakes are often made even worse for supporters because you can quite often see exactly what is about to happen from the stands (turning circle, below the knees etc.).

Let's hope that he can "turn it around" so to speak.

The way our mids were kicking into the forward line it is no wonder you all think Bate is rubbish.

But they still don't deliver it to space, or to the right side of our forwards, although the rolling flood from the Crows didn't help.

Agree. Being a forward at Melbourne in recent times would have to be one of the toughest jobs in AFL footy.

Bate is playing out of position, trying to learn a new role as a KPP, in a side that doesn't honour his leads effectively. I watched him a fairly closely today, and while i agree he was not good, it wasn't thru lack of effort. His repeat leading is good, yet rarely honored. PJ's pass to him in the 3rd was a beauty, but he then missed the goal.

I think once the team starts playing better footy, Bate's form will also improve. He has shown himself to be capable in the past as a 3rd/4th option in attack. Playing KPF is not helping him, especially without the protection hes had in the past from Neitz and Robbo. For now i'm very reluctant to be too critical of his performances- I'll give him at least until round 7-8 to improve before i start grilling him the way others have around here.

The issue with Dunn is he avoids body contact (read squibs) and cannot mark above his head.

Agree completely. It has been something he's had issues with for some time, and IMO, i'm not sure he's effectively addressed those issues as yet. He doesn't make enough body contact or attack the footy anywhere near hard enough in marking situations. He's lacking what players like Jared Rivers have in abundance- courage in the air. A reckless disregard for ones own safety in pack situations. Riv has it, Robbo has it, Ricky Petterd's got it. Until Dunn can address this, i'm not sure where his future role in AFL lies.

I also noticed him 'squib' it on a couple of occassions today. I hope he can fix this part of his game up, because his size, speed and endurance as well as long effective kicking, are all great qualities to have as an AFL footballer. He just needs a bag of cement, if u know what i mean...

I have never rated Bate. The amount of people on this site that stated he was going to be a SUPERSTAR astounded me once upon a time. Now it's all falling down.

He needs to be either up for trade bait or delisted by seasons end unless he turns it around.

He has WAY too many limitations to his game. Not an AFL footballer.

As a couple of other posters have mentioned he is being put in a position that he just isn't cut out for. But who else in yesterdays 22 was? While I understand how frustrating it is not having a forward that we can rely on for 4-5 goals on most weeks it isn't constructive to put the boot into the support forwards like Bate, Pettard or Dunn that are forced to assume the responsibility. Our forward line is dysfunctional and it will take us more than this season to sort it out but plans are in place and if the powers that be can put together a good young backline we must have faith that they will be able to do the same at the pointy end.

I remember when bate was first in the team he ran around on the wing. why not try him back there? When he came to shine was when he was getting 25+ disposals a game and running off the wing kicking 1 or 2 goals a game.

Yeah. It seems he's lost a bit of spark when leading forward. A couple of years ago he was marking everything, booting them from 50+... Maybe a shift up the ground might help. I think it's possible that we need someone up forward who can play, and Bate has shown more than a little in his past. Could it be a bit of extra weight he's carrying? If he plays as a receiver he could be very effective with his pace, and lord knows we did well this week in the contested ball situations...

The main problem with Bate is his work rate, he need to run run and run, he seems to have one effort one lead and thats it. I don't think he has the tank to play in our midfield and I think he will be making way for Robbo this week. Bate has ability he just needs to increase his work rate.

Bate was recruited as a forward, and now more than ever we are screaming out for one.

We do not need another wingman, especially one who cannot bend down. If he can't make it as a tall forward (play him deep, play him on the edge of the arc, play him anywhere within the forward 50), he won't make it at Melbourne.

Put simply, it's time to get serious about him being a forward (which he is!), or move him on.

The issue with Dunn is he avoids body contact (read squibs) and cannot mark above his head. Bate at least will crash a pack and bring it to ground. The issue is there is no one there. I dont see either of them in our future although Bate may prove me wrong as a third target in a good forwardline.

I think that used to be true of Dunn, but in fairness, I can't point to examples this year.

I thought the effort Bate made at leading yesterday was poor. His article at the start of the year was all about how he practised leading patterns and so forth, yet yesterday his leads consisted of half hearted 5 meter spurts with his hands waving in the air, none of them at full pace.

There was one instance where a player had a ball on the wing in the 2nd, Bate had 30 meters clear in front of him, and he made a [censored] poor lead and just ran around in circles.

What Miller has shown this year if he leads, he leads with conviction, which is why the ball gets directed through him, Bate doesnt seem to actually want the ball on the lead, and more often than not was seen standing flat footed with his hands waving in the air.

I lost my patience with him yesterday

Not impressed with his performance today and his entire season has been ordinary.

I like it how he tries to set up goals, but his output each week has been below par.

Do we drop him, or do we play him in the midfield??

Got to play him in the midfield. I feel for him cause he's been forced to play more KP due to Robbo, Watts and Jurrah not being ready yet but he's much better off a wing. Possibly for next week play Dunn forward and Bate on the wing and see if that helps?

I thought the effort Bate made at leading yesterday was poor. His article at the start of the year was all about how he practised leading patterns and so forth, yet yesterday his leads consisted of half hearted 5 meter spurts with his hands waving in the air, none of them at full pace.

There was one instance where a player had a ball on the wing in the 2nd, Bate had 30 meters clear in front of him, and he made a [censored] poor lead and just ran around in circles.

What Miller has shown this year if he leads, he leads with conviction, which is why the ball gets directed through him, Bate doesnt seem to actually want the ball on the lead, and more often than not was seen standing flat footed with his hands waving in the air.

I lost my patience with him yesterday

What happened yesterday was we went back to handball madness, the week before we were kicking, albeit against a disorganised defence, but result 100 points, this week hardly any service into forward 50.

Bate leads but we handballed, saw that action on the wing and he pointed out where the ball should go, not to him it was a false lead and well carried out, unfortunately we handballed again.

Note on Bate, he is a big stocky bloke, so he knows if he goes to ground he takes a while to get up, when he approaches he lets opposition player get at ball first and uses his bulk, watched him do this twice to take a Crow out of bounds in the forward 50.

You will note Miller, how many marks did he take yesterday?.........and the week before he was flying....

The main problem with Bate is his work rate, he need to run run and run, he seems to have one effort one lead and thats it. I don't think he has the tank to play in our midfield and I think he will be making way for Robbo this week. Bate has ability he just needs to increase his work rate.

His workrate is fine, runs himself to exhaustion.

Bate will be a good HFF in a good team, that is why we should keep persisiting with him.