Short term pain - ULTIMATE GAIN

[Angry_Bird 0]

If Dean Bailey has the best interest of the Melbourne Football Club in mind then he will ensure we win less the 4.5 games this season.

Carlton and Hawthorn are perfect examples of teams that have used low picks to ensure success. Assuming the players we have picked up can be developed - which, mind you, the MFC has been notoriously bad at, then we have a very good future in our hands.

Since 2002 we have 16 players on our list that were drafted between pick 1-26. Add to that players that have really improved such as Garland, Davey and Wonna then we start to have a pretty good nucleus. Add to that picks 1,2, and 17 from this years draft and we should be the next Carlton.

Melbourne will not win a premiership before the Blues. They were the laughing stock of the competition yet they managed to get out of that and we all hate and fear them again. The Saints and Hawks went through it before the Blues and we know what Hawthorn did. St Kilda only didn't win a flag due to the pathetic (and similar to Melbourne) culture at the club. I understand that I might sound a bit hypocritical in saying that we need to lose to win BUT strong clubs will do anything possible to ensure they are in the best position possible (a lose at all costs mentality that the Blues had in 2007). Our inability to do that in 2007 - as we all know and have said many times - cost us Natanui and potentially Chris Judd.

We must finish last this year and win less than 4.5 games. In saying that, like Carlton in 2007, we must show we are on the rise and ensure we do not get flogged each week. This year is the last year we can manipulate and benefit from the draft.

Anyone who disagrees with this is not taking a long term view. We must suffer one more year of pain and we will get the ULTIMATE GAIN!

2002 DRAFT

Daniel Bell (14)

Jared Rivers (26)

Paul Johnson (24)

2003 DRAFT

Colin Sylvia (3)

Brock McLean (5)

2004 DRAFT

John Meeson (8)

Matthew Bate (13)

Lynden Dunn (15)

2005 DRAFT

Nathan Jones (12)

2006 DRAFT

James Frawley (12)

2007 DRAFT

Cale Morton (4)

Jack Grimes (14)

Addam Maric (21)

2008 DRAFT

Jack Watts (1)

Sam Bleese (17)

James Strauss (19)

2009 DRAFT

Pick 1

Pick 2

Pick 17

[Longsufferingnomore 1,631]

If Dean Bailey has the best interest of the Melbourne Football Club in mind then he will ensure we win less the 4.5 games this season.

The only issue I have is don't compare our culture with Saints. Surely not as "bogan".........................

[Guest hangon007]

Its not called "Tanking" anymore ... please get your terminology correct ... the approved AFL sanctioned term is "List Management"

If you tank the AFL will clamp down on you in more ways that one. However, if you "List manage" they will only give you a [censored]-house draw the following year.

[Guest Rojik of the Arctic]

You can jam your draft picks right where the sun don't shine. I want my team to try and win every game they play and I don't pay my membership so the off field boys can hobble the team for a 17yo that could be anything or could be nothing.

[H_T 3,043]

Melbourne will not win a premiership before the Blues. They were the laughing stock of the competition yet they managed to get out of that and we all hate and fear them again. The Saints and Hawks went through it before the Blues and we know what Hawthorn did. St Kilda only didn't win a flag due to the pathetic (and similar to Melbourne) culture at the club. I understand that I might sound a bit hypocritical in saying that we need to lose to win BUT strong clubs will do anything possible to ensure they are in the best position possible (a lose at all costs mentality that the Blues had in 2007). Our inability to do that in 2007 - as we all know and have said many times - cost us Natanui and potentially Chris Judd.

Observation......St.Kilda's window is still open.

Comment:

I think we all know the situation or the position the club could find themselves in (ie. with less than 5 wins , etc).....but do we have to bring up a thread every so often (almost every day)....which alludes to another wooden spoon and the number 1 and 2 draft picks for the 2009 draft, etc, etc. I know its all speculation and that you all are entitled to have an opinion - I've even mentioned it too (ie. commenting on Scully, etc) , so I'm in the same boat - it just seems all too soon and in a way unfair (indirectly) on those taking the field competing. To be honest, I find watching the game now, almost in two minds. I want them to win, but when they're in a position where the game or scoreboard pressure is too much...I'll think, oh well, we've firmed as favourites for a priority pick a little more. Is it just me, or do others think a little like this??

It shouldn't be like that. I know the rules are in place - and we can blame the rules I suppose, but it just.....I don't know,... sucks!

At the end of the day........we all want a Premiership.....that's what I keep telling myself.

There, I had to let that out.....feel much better.

[titan_uranus 24,966]

You can jam your draft picks right where the sun don't shine. I want my team to try and win every game they play and I don't pay my membership so the off field boys can hobble the team for a 17yo that could be anything or could be nothing.

This is the opinion I've held on this issue, and I don't really feel like changing.

Yes, it worked for Hawthorn. But they didn't have to tank. They used trades to get extra picks. And in some respects you could argue they got lucky with Richmond leaving Roughead and Franklin behind.

Carlton's had 3 no. 1 picks, but not much of their other drafting has been totally succesful. Other success has come from trading (e.g. Stevens and Judd, potentially Warnock too), which happens much less often these days.

And let's not forget Richmond, who had 5 picks in the top 20 in 2004. They selected who they thought were the best players available. Look how that turned out.

[beelzebub 23,313]

I must concur with the view that short term pain is required for longer term gain. The fly in the ointment is that weve had many many years of pain, short or otherwise and many just wont come at any more. A shame..and decidedly unfortunate for those thattake this view as this is exactly what WILL occur this year.

Of course we want our boys to be competitve and they will become increasingly so. Many competitve teams dont win week in week out so why should our bunch of learners defy that trend ? Of course they wont. Many seem to confuse the notion of going out to lose, to go through some motions in wait of some halelujah chorus of events to swoop upon us at seasons end morphing us into some super team. That wont happen either. Have we got al the cattle we need to develop ? No, and thats why another visit to the font of talent is necessary at years end to take a last drink before the wells dries up is required.

For varying reasons past club football mesiahs have only dabbled at wholesale re-creation of the list. I believe this management team is going about it properly. The results will improve, to the point of satisfying the most disapointed of die-hards ?.. I doubt it. There are always associated risks with any of the draftees. Some will make it, some wont. It seems impossible to forecast which will and wont so its wise to have as good a crop of these available as possible in order to groom a potent outfit going forward.

I expect the MFC to do its "list management" well this year this wont sit wel with all..so be it. I want long term success not a hit and miss win/loss future

[45HG 1,539]

Quality not quantity however.

Bell, PJ, Sylvia, Meesen, Bate, Dunn, Frawley (not to mention Grimes and Maric, though I hold high hopes) have shown little to prove that they are the future "nucleus" of the side, let alone a quality, Premiership winning one.

[Gorgoroth 12,918]

Its not called "Tanking" anymore ... please get your terminology correct ... the approved AFL sanctioned term is "List Management"

If you tank the AFL will clamp down on you in more ways that one. However, if you "List manage" they will only give you a [censored]-house draw the following year.

What worse than we already get????? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[beelzebub 23,313]

What worse than we already get????? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

its hardly a deterrent for us is it ?? lol

[Al`s DEMONS 0]

Quality not quantity however.

Bell, PJ, Sylvia, Meesen, Bate, Dunn, Frawley (not to mention Grimes and Maric, though I hold high hopes) have shown little to prove that they are the future "nucleus" of the side, let alone a quality, Premiership winning one.

you can leave Chippa and Maric out of that list

[45HG 1,539]

Are you saying Frawley and Maric have proven they can be part of a Premiership-winning nucleus? You're joking surely

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

"Tanking" implies that you lose games you were actually able to win.

From the performances to date, I dont think we have been in that position. We were not good enough.

There's the rub. At this point of the year, we need to develop and seek improvement in the list. This may or may not evolve into victories. Number of wins at the end of the year should be seen as an outcome rather than a target.

However, if we are 4 wins or less with four rounds to go, I will be spitting chips if we were to compromise our draft opportunities with a junk time victory.

We need to have the common sense and intelligence to understand where our list is in terms of quality, what is required to be successful and what steps we need to take via drafting or recruiting to supplement the list.

[H_T 3,043]

Are you saying Frawley and Maric have proven they can be part of a Premiership-winning nucleus? You're joking surely

I hold high hopes for Maric, Grimes and Frawley in that regard.

[45HG 1,539]

But "hope" isn't what I'm talking about.

The original post pointed to the "fact" we'd have 16 top 20 players on our list and thus a quality nucleus, only a few have actually shown that they could help forge a Premiership tilt.

Maric, whilst he has a bright future, hasn't shown this. Grimes, though I believe he will be a quality player, has played one game. Frawley, though I like him, has struggled to even hold his own spot let alone look like being a part of a Premiership core group of players.

Top draft picks do not guarantee quality players, though obviously increase the chances of getting one.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

Top draft picks do not guarantee quality players, though obviously increase the chances of getting one.

Agree. Its important that both the recruitment and development of the player is done properly to ensure that your top draft picks blossom to become your prime player. In addition it would be nice to have some of your 3rd and 4th round picks emerge to be somewhere between capable to outstanding footballers.

[QueenC 74]

But "hope" isn't what I'm talking about.

The original post pointed to the "fact" we'd have 16 top 20 players on our list and thus a quality nucleus, only a few have actually shown that they could help forge a Premiership tilt.

Maric, whilst he has a bright future, hasn't shown this. Grimes, though I believe he will be a quality player, has played one game. Frawley, though I like him, has struggled to even hold his own spot let alone look like being a part of a Premiership core group of players.

Top draft picks do not guarantee quality players, though obviously increase the chances of getting one.

But isn't "hope" all we really have at this point?

I mean we really have no idea if the boys we are recruiting, and hopefully developing (thanks RR) will become this feted "Premiership" nucleus.

We don't know if we have one now just in its infancy, and the reality is that we can only cling to the hope that these kids, like Maric (who I think is going to be something) and Grimes etc can form what we need to reach that ever elusive ground. But it has been so long, and we've had so many swings and misses that despite the number of top line draftees we faithful in here all rely on a little hope in the players, the coaches and their movement forward, towards the promised land.

[Jaded No More 68,855]

"Tanking" implies that you lose games you were actually able to win.

From the performances to date, I dont think we have been in that position. We were not good enough.

There's the rub. At this point of the year, we need to develop and seek improvement in the list. This may or may not evolve into victories. Number of wins at the end of the year should be seen as an outcome rather than a target.

However, if we are 4 wins or less with four rounds to go, I will be spitting chips if we were to compromise our draft opportunities with a junk time victory.

We need to have the common sense and intelligence to understand where our list is in terms of quality, what is required to be successful and what steps we need to take via drafting or recruiting to supplement the list.

Agreed.

At the moment we're not good enough to tank. We are ordinarily hopeless without even trying, and we should therefore just keep going the way we are with development of players and experimentation of player positions.

Of course once we get to 4 wins (if that actually happens), I would be extremely disappointed if the club doesn't have both feet on the break paddle and goes into 'list management' mode.

We need to get those priority picks, there is no doubt about it, but unlike some clubs that shall remain unnamed, we actually deserve those picks, because we are not good enough to win more than roughly 4 matches.

[H_T 3,043]

Quality not quantity however.

Bell, PJ, Sylvia, Meesen, Bate, Dunn, Frawley (not to mention Grimes and Maric, though I hold high hopes) have shown little to prove that they are the future "nucleus" of the side, let alone a quality, Premiership winning one.

I hold high hopes for Maric, Grimes and Frawley in that regard.

But "hope" isn't what I'm talking about.

The original post pointed to the "fact" we'd have 16 top 20 players on our list and thus a quality nucleus, only a few have actually shown that they could help forge a Premiership tilt.

Maric, whilst he has a bright future, hasn't shown this. Grimes, though I believe he will be a quality player, has played one game. Frawley, though I like him, has struggled to even hold his own spot let alone look like being a part of a Premiership core group of players.

Top draft picks do not guarantee quality players, though obviously increase the chances of getting one.

If you weren't referring to 'hope', I apologise.

May I elaborate further on my post.

I hold high hopes for 'quality' in the form of a Maric, a Grimes, a Frawley.

In other words, I think whilst they are yet to prove it, I think they're all a chance to be a part of the nucleus of the side (ie Premiership core group of players), but it's a while away, I'm no Whoopi Goldberg (Ghost). I agree with your thoughts on the three in your last post. Frawley is still young and green and I think he's being earmarked for our team's future, could be wrong, but I think he will be a much better all round player with 40-50 games under his belt. We'll see him mature into a fine defender IMO.

[45HG 1,539]

But isn't "hope" all we really have at this point?

Yeah, oh look I absolutely understand and I hold high hope for a lot of our younger players (though have concerns over how they'll develop without leadership) but I don't want to simply buy into the "high draft picks will equal success" theory. It's just not true and will lead to heartache.

I think we'll win less than 4.5 games this year, but not through "tanking," but simply because we are not good enough.

And of course, I'll "hope" that the high drafts picks can become quality players for the club. However, our batch of top draft picks listed in this thread don't inspire pure confidence in me.

Yeah, sorry for the confusion HT, I meant whilst I have hope for them, they have not shown that they will be part of a good, Premiership threatening, nucleus which is what was initially claimed.

[beelzebub 23,313]

"Tanking" implies that you lose games you were actually able to win.

From the performances to date, I dont think we have been in that position. We were not good enough.

There's the rub. At this point of the year, we need to develop and seek improvement in the list. This may or may not evolve into victories. Number of wins at the end of the year should be seen as an outcome rather than a target.

However, if we are 4 wins or less with four rounds to go, I will be spitting chips if we were to compromise our draft opportunities with a junk time victory.

We need to have the common sense and intelligence to understand where our list is in terms of quality, what is required to be successful and what steps we need to take via drafting or recruiting to supplement the list.

its not often I will agree word for word...well summised and good identification of the truths in this matter. This is exactly what its about and where we stand in todays state of play.

[Sir Why You Little 36,954]

"Tanking" implies that you lose games you were actually able to win.

From the performances to date, I dont think we have been in that position. We were not good enough.

There's the rub. At this point of the year, we need to develop and seek improvement in the list. This may or may not evolve into victories. Number of wins at the end of the year should be seen as an outcome rather than a target.

However, if we are 4 wins or less with four rounds to go, I will be spitting chips if we were to compromise our draft opportunities with a junk time victory.

We need to have the common sense and intelligence to understand where our list is in terms of quality, what is required to be successful and what steps we need to take via drafting or recruiting to supplement the list.

A lot about the "Tanking Issue" maybe answered on Sunday. As i believe we are good enough to Beat Richmond, and as a club we should fight for that win. In the position we are in during 2009 i would like to see the club "Go Flat Out" until Round 14-15 after that point List Management to be Phased in if needed.

[Al`s DEMONS 0]

Are you saying Frawley and Maric have proven they can be part of a Premiership-winning nucleus? You're joking surely

my comment is based to some extent on potential, but both have limited game time compared to the other names mentioned. Maric played 5 games last year due to school commitments, 5 games under a new coach with a side coming to terms with all the changes. his second game was against the Cats , he had 23 disposals, some of them cheap but he looked as though he was coping with the speed of the game. Chippa looks set for a big season this year, i think he has played ok, the whole backline is copping a hamering due to our midfield problems. one thing i like about DB he doesnt drop a kid after one bad game, he is letting our backline settle

[Angry_Bird 0]

It is very difficult to predict what will happen to a player. However, by being a low draft pick we are given a very good piece of land to build on. Sure we might end up with a commission flat but we have the opportunity to build something amazing. Maric, Grimes, Frawley, Watts, Morton etc are all players that can either be developed into great players and hopefully Premiership players or they can end up like Bruce and Green - good players that never improved.

Hawthorn have premiership players like Stephen Gilham, Brent Guerra, Grant Birchall, Rick Ladson, Jordan Lewis, Clinton Young, Brad Sewell, Chance Bateman who 3 years earlier you may have said are rubbish. They rated Sewell so low that they were willing to trade him for Ferguson.

The key for this club is win 4 games. Be somewhat competitive in those we lose and spend 99% of the time developing, developing and developing. With 3 top 20 picks including 1 and 2 this year we will have the platform to build something special. Add to that the interest the GC17 will have in Miller and Pettard (two locals) then we may even be able to con another low pick in 2010.

Car'n Dees. Enjoy watching the team develop but for gods sake we don't want to win more than 4.

In saying that it would be nice to knock off the Tigers!!

[True Believer 1]

You can jam your draft picks right where the sun don't shine. I want my team to try and win every game they play and I don't pay my membership so the off field boys can hobble the team for a 17yo that could be anything or could be nothing.

:angry: :angry: AGREE 100%...AIM TO WIN, NOT AIM TO TANK !!!!!! :angry: :angry: