CJ article in the hun

[Hards 2]

I think it's pretty obvious that CJ's point was that he was made to work exceptionally hard for his spot when others (under both Bailey and Daniher's coaching) were given a seemingly free ride, regardless of how bad their form was.

Aside from that, I think a few people are underestimating the impact a close mate/teammate being belittled and disrespected in such an open manner can have on the rest of the team. Chris Johnson isn't what was holding this footy club back, and making him somewhat of a scapegoat isn't going to solve anything.

He wasn't offered more than a one year deal, wasn't given a clear picture of his future at the club until right before trade week, wasn't given a game despite clearly deserving it, then finally told that the Match Committee weren't sold on him. How can you blame him for going to a place he was actually wanted?

I hope he succeeds at Carlton (even if I hope the club falls over and dies in the arse).

[Dappa Dan 2,188]

4. Melbourne's starting 22 hasn't been weakened by CJ's depature.

5. I'd much prefer to talk about Watts, Strauss, Blease, Jurrah, Jetta, Maric, Grimes, Petterd...etc

4. Debatable but probably true. What it has cost us was a player that might have played some possession-heavy games off a back flank where anyone can get a kick. What we will miss is his strong, accurate kick and (relative to the current list) mature body. Ultimately though, he was a fairly mediocre excuse for a footballer at the best of times, and saying he'd earned his place in the side is out-and-out rot. The first handful of games he'd played for MFC were as ineffective as anyone's, and his for in the 2s was only good without being great. The guy might have done ok over the next 5 years and cost someone like Petterd, Grimes and others a game, when they're (IMO) going to be better players in the long run, with far better attitudes.

5. Exactly. Given what our 22 is going to look like in the coming years, CJ was only going to stand in their way. And if he wasn't going to stand in their way, he would have ended up being a mature-aged "leader." Which would have been a TERRIBLE outcome, given what we now know about his character.

wasn't given a game despite clearly deserving it,

Good post except for this bit. He didn't "clearly" deserve anything. His attitude, we can see now, is that of a whiner. The kind of guy that plays for himself, his paycheck, and his own career ahead of the team's. I can TOTALLY appreciate how ND and DB would have been loathe to put an individual into a group of kids that needed to become a team. Just because he gets copious amount of possessions off a back flank in the VFL doesn't mean he's going to cut it in the AFL. And when he DID go up a grade to the ones, for a long time there, he was miles off. He played 2 good games this year after 4 years on the list. In what way did he earn his spot?

It's amazing to me that people get stuck into the unfashionable Bell when this guy was such a soft ck. Bell doesn't know how to go less than 100% (sometimes to his detriment), works harder on and off the pitch, has played heaps of really good footy for MFC, and is still grateful for his opportunities and humble in the press.

I'm conscious of the fact CJ's delisting has given Bell's career a boost, but still I'd choose Daniel over CJ any day of the week. And if rumours are to be believed, as little as a year ago, Bell was being touted as trade bait... where CJ just barely garnered interest from the Blues.

I'm not saying his delisting was a GOOD thing, but it's certainly not as bad as people are making out, and this new article only reinforces the point that, by hook or by crook, it was good to get rid of this guy.

[bjgc 0]

I can see why CJ was not happy with the lack of oppertunities he was getting especially considering the free ride Sylvia has had but he only has himself to blame they gave him an oppertunity at the strart of the season for the last couple of seasons and played horrible football now that he's played a few good games near the end of the season he wants to be garanteed a spot in the 22 pretty poor I think by CJ I think he read the clubs mood well though I have a hunch that they only wanted him as insurance for injury's.

I think they already had a replacement for him and that is Grimes every report I have read about Grimes tells me theat they want him in the side ASAP and I think the role he would be most suited to ATS would be half back I think they want a leader down back and Grimes fits the bill while CJ shows no leadership at all Stynes also said that Grimes would be the next player to step up next year. If I'm wrong then I have no idea why the club would not give him a 2 year deal I would have him ahead of Wheatley.

[Wrecker45 3,378]

I think it's pretty obvious that CJ's point was that he was made to work exceptionally hard for his spot when others (under both Bailey and Daniher's coaching) were given a seemingly free ride, regardless of how bad their form was.

I thought Bailey made the players work for their spot more so than we've seen in a decade. Yze and White certainly weren't given a spot on reputation.

Bailey gave the kids a go, I have no reason to believe they didn't work exceptionally hard for their spot, it's pretty hard to come into the worst team in the league with little experience and have an impact.

[Bring-Back-Powell 14,935]

Here are the games that Chris Johnson would've got a pass mark in his 31 games for the Dees.

2006:

WCE V Melb - rd 9

Melb V St Kilda - rd 10

2007:

Melb V Rich - NAB Regional Challenge

2008:

Rich V Melb - rd 12

Melb V Bris - rd 14

WB V Melb - rd 15

Freo v Melb - rd 16

Melb V Nth - Rd 17

So that's 7 home & away games and 1 practice match where CJ was AFL standard. Is he in our best 22? Hell no!

Bye bye to bad rubbish.

[montasaurus 0]

Here are the games that Chris Johnson would've got a pass mark in his 31 games for the Dees.

2006:

WCE V Melb - rd 9

Melb V St Kilda - rd 10

2007:

Melb V Rich - NAB Regional Challenge

2008:

Rich V Melb - rd 12

Melb V Bris - rd 14

WB V Melb - rd 15

Freo v Melb - rd 16

Melb V Nth - Rd 17

So that's 7 home & away games and 1 practice match where CJ was AFL standard. Is he in our best 22? Hell no!

Bye bye to bad rubbish.

To note as well we had been heavily hit by injury by rd 12 which was the only reason he got a game at this stage. The writing was on the wall well before this point.

Couldn't agree more with your last words Bring-Back-Powell, what are we going to see next a Brent Gergic appreciation post. To those who are supporting CJ - Please!

Under the same opportunity Gergic would have had the same impact last season as CJ and how many snr games did he play with geelong after he was traded? 0

[Ron Burgundy 8,584]

I agree, Hards. It's easy to talk tough about the treatment of a player (who according to the majority of you) was ordinary and a borderline player in terms of our best 22. His treatment does not reflect well on the club - in short, it seems to have been handled unprofessionally. The analysis above also doesn't reflect well on many of you either - but masses rarely think in an objective, measured way.

I really like Bailey. I really like Connolly. I love this club. I think it is definitely heading in the right direction ... finally. But it seems to me that the treatment of Johnson has been handled poorly, particularly if he is only a marginal player - and particularly given that he would share solid friendships with many other more important players on the list. Not smart stuff - and not the kind of stuff that builds a good culture, despite the tough talking smuck that some of you are churning out ...

[montasaurus 0]

I agree, Hards. It's easy to talk tough about the treatment of a player (who according to the majority of you) was ordinary and a borderline player in terms of our best 22. His treatment does not reflect well on the club - in short, it seems to have been handled unprofessionally. The analysis above also doesn't reflect well on many of you either - but masses rarely think in an objective, measured way.

I really like Bailey. I really like Connolly. I love this club. I think it is definitely heading in the right direction ... finally. But it seems to me that the treatment of Johnson has been handled poorly, particularly if he is only a marginal player - and particularly given that he would share solid friendships with many other more important players on the list. Not smart stuff - and not the kind of stuff that builds a good culture, despite the tough talking smuck that some of you are churning out ...

Ron, well done standing up with your views but unfortunately I just cannot agree with your logic.....

"it seems to have been handled unprofessionally" - a player is offered a contract and decides at the last minute to pull the pin and walk because it is not up to his expectaions. That is what is unprofessional and the reason that "We the masses" are so upset. Had have he come to the club and be put up for trade we would not be having this discusion. Make no mistakes, CJ, His management and the CFC are to blame for how this was handled not the MFC. Do you really think for a minute if he really wanted to be at the MFC he would have let this happen? The writing was on the wall, we are in a cut throat business too bad we move on. He was offered 1 year to prove himself and decided at the last minute that obviasly he was not up to the challenge. This could be said about any fringe player that has been delisted at any club. Its a hard business and your either up to it or not. If CJ has an impact with the blues I will gladly eat my words but this reaks of a spoilt brat that felt he was bigger then the club.

"particularly given that he would share solid friendships with many other more important players on the list" - What proof do we have of this, he could well have not been liked at all and correct me if i am wrong but it was some of the players that gave him a send off on the day in question.

"and not the kind of stuff that builds a good culture" - we I guess we should all kiss and make up then.

Good culture? I think this is the exact message that DB and the club are setting. They are there to play for each other, not spoilt little boys playing for themselves. The only sad thing to come out of this is that he is AJ's son. If he did not have this link I think the bad blood would be even worse! Keep in mind we didn't delist him, he left us after any chance of trade for the club. What he has done is worse scott thompson- at least he gave his intentions early and gave the clubs a chance to work things out with his desired location. Likewise Jolly.

So to say that the treatment of Johnson has been handled poorly, is just so far from the reality of the situation. :angry: and I think any supporter has the right to feel let down by CJ and I hope all voice their real feelings next time he crosses paths with us!

(for what it is worth I wish him well still, but be prepared for a verbal bashing if he plays against us!)

[mo64 5,880]

Ron, well done standing up with your views but unfortunately I just cannot agree with your logic.....

"it seems to have been handled unprofessionally" - a player is offered a contract and decides at the last minute to pull the pin and walk because it is not up to his expectaions. That is what is unprofessional and the reason that "We the masses" are so upset. Had have he come to the club and be put up for trade we would not be having this discusion. Make no mistakes, CJ, His management and the CFC are to blame for how this was handled not the MFC. Do you really think for a minute if he really wanted to be at the MFC he would have let this happen? The writing was on the wall, we are in a cut throat business too bad we move on. He was offered 1 year to prove himself and decided at the last minute that obviasly he was not up to the challenge. This could be said about any fringe player that has been delisted at any club. Its a hard business and your either up to it or not. If CJ has an impact with the blues I will gladly eat my words but this reaks of a spoilt brat that felt he was bigger then the club.

"particularly given that he would share solid friendships with many other more important players on the list" - What proof do we have of this, he could well have not been liked at all and correct me if i am wrong but it was some of the players that gave him a send off on the day in question.

"and not the kind of stuff that builds a good culture" - we I guess we should all kiss and make up then.

Good culture? I think this is the exact message that DB and the club are setting. They are there to play for each other, not spoilt little boys playing for themselves. The only sad thing to come out of this is that he is AJ's son. If he did not have this link I think the bad blood would be even worse! Keep in mind we didn't delist him, he left us after any chance of trade for the club. What he has done is worse scott thompson- at least he gave his intentions early and gave the clubs a chance to work things out with his desired location. Likewise Jolly.

So to say that the treatment of Johnson has been handled poorly, is just so far from the reality of the situation. :angry: and I think any supporter has the right to feel let down by CJ and I hope all voice their real feelings next time he crosses paths with us!

(for what it is worth I wish him well still, but be prepared for a verbal bashing if he plays against us!)

What a load of crap. You dare to criticize Ron Burgandy's logic, when the basis of your arguments are factually incorrect.

Point 1. He didn't walk out on the club. He was put on the trade table by the club. What message does that send to a fringe player? No acceptable trade was forthcoming. Another club offers him a better contract. Of course he's going to accept it.

Point 2. Yes you are wrong. No players gave him a send-off in the day in question. In fact, Sylvia sympathetically suggested that he should leave the field.

I agree with Hards and Ron, the situation was handled poorly, and reflects badly on the club.

I wish CJ all the best, and hope he has a prolonged career.

[Jarka 767]

What a load of crap. You dare to criticize Ron Burgandy's logic, when the basis of your arguments are factually incorrect.

Point 1. He didn't walk out on the club. He was put on the trade table by the club. What message does that send to a fringe player? No acceptable trade was forthcoming. Another club offers him a better contract. Of course he's going to accept it.

Point 2. Yes you are wrong. No players gave him a send-off in the day in question. In fact, Sylvia sympathetically suggested that he should leave the field.

I agree with Hards and Ron, the situation was handled poorly, and reflects badly on the club.

I wish CJ all the best, and hope he has a prolonged career.

I wouldn't say it reflects badly on the club although I agree things could have been done differently from both sides.

With regards to point 2, it is true that Sylvia told him to just leave but to suggest it was either a send-off or in sympathy could both be wrong. I would be surprised if any of us were within earshot of the conversation that took place, hence any view of how it was delivered from Sylvia would be based on second hand information (at least, most likely 3rd or 4th) and just a guess.

[Beach Road Bazza 0]

CJ was certainly in form at Sandringham for a good few weeks earlier in the season when he was struggling for a place in Melbourne side. However, it should be noted that, at the same time, there were several other candidates for promotion, the most notable being Simon Buckley who was playing a similar role as a flanker/winger with the Zebras. Buckley got the nod first, for whatever reason I do not know but it would have been line ball. In any event CJ got his chance and played reasonably well at AFL level for the first time in his career and only really for a couple of games. However, I wouldn't say that this entitled him to be stamped automatically as an AFL player.

On balance, judging from the games he played with Sandy and with Melbourne, I don't consider the manner of his outburst to be justified although he was certainly entitled to seek greener pastures elsewhere.

Good luck to him!

[furious d 472]

If the club had offered CJ 2 years I would've have been [censored] off! To often we've caved in at the negotiation table, it's what got us into this mess in the first place. We need to base contracts on our expectations. I'm yet to hear how long Dunn's new contract is but I hope he's only got one year as well. We can't afford to continue as the ordinary footballers benevolent fund. I don't begrudge CJ his right to seek security elsewhere, it's a tough business, but the club did the right thing and if other fringe players walk out in future so be it. If we matched Carltank and had CJ running around at Casey for 2 years everyone here would be [censored] at the club. They were prepared to offer him 2 years, he's their problem now.

[montasaurus 0]

What a load of crap. You dare to criticize Ron Burgandy's logic, when the basis of your arguments are factually incorrect.

Where are your facts again? I did not want to do this as another thread has covered this already. Actually it is your info that is worthless.... Please read on

Point 1. He didn't walk out on the club. He was put on the trade table by the club. What message does that send to a fringe player? No acceptable trade was forthcoming. Another club offers him a better contract. Of course he's going to accept it.

1stly have a good read of this before you comment re point 1.

http://www.melbournefc.com.au/tabid/7415/D...px?newsid=69495

“To do this, we offered Chris a new two year contract, but unfortunately he wanted to play for another, rival AFL club, and subsequently asked to be delisted."

also, have a quick read of:

http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/sport/afl...0-19742,00.html

"The Blues made a play for the son of former Demons star Alan in the trade period, offering a late pick above 100 in a bargain-basement bid.

But Melbourne held firm, hoping to talk Johnson around. In talks with coach Dean Bailey after the trade period, Johnson could not tell the Demons he wanted to play for them and he was delisted. Melbourne believes he will end up at Carlton under coach Brett Ratten and assistant Mark Riley, who coached him at the Demons. It is understood the Blues medical staff contacted the Demons almost three weeks ago wanting information on Johnson's physical condition.

Also...... CJ's manager:

But Johnson's manager, Liam Pickering of IMG, questioned why Melbourne would even contemplate re-drafting a player who did not want to play for them.

"Melbourne should be looking elsewhere. They'll be getting a player who doesn't want to be there," said Pickering

I don't think anything more needs to be said. Clearly Johnson wanted out and an under the table deal was done with carlton well before the trade period. We were offered pick >100 and decided to try to keep him as a required player. What message does that send? We were trying to stand by our player in my book, but he wanted to act like a rat leaving a sinking ship, well we have every right to be dissapointed and angry with him.

Point 2. Yes you are wrong. No players gave him a send-off in the day in question. In fact, Sylvia sympathetically suggested that he should leave the field.

I think you may have just contradicted yourself here, and I am yet to see a report that sylvia was sypathetic.

So the snr coach, a snr player? where are the facts that sylvia was sympathetic. there was an article a while back that painted a very different picture re the exchange. unfortunately I am unable to find it. This article was I think CC talking about CJ coming in to tell them he was leaving and so he was sent out to look DB in the eye and tell him in front of the playing group. The outcome was he was told to leave the field by DB and correct me if I am wrong as he was walking off there was a reported exchange between sylvia and CJ. Last time i checked an "exchange" is anything but sympathy.

http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/sport/afl...8-19742,00.html

"The way Dean ended it, he made it easier for me. I wanted to go over (during training) and say thank you but he didn't let me do that."

Suggest next time research your response a little better before launching an attack on somebody!

I agree with Hards and Ron, the situation was handled poorly, and reflects badly on the club.

so now with my "factually incorrect information" on the table what exactly should have the club done? maybe a going away tea party in the middle of training would have been suitable, or a kiss on the cheeck from the snr coach in front of the playing group -

"the situation was handled poorly" - What a ridduclas statement to make, hindsight is always so easy! So tell me. Your dean baily, setting a new policy of zero tolerence at a club that has seen to be soft and has had issues on and off the field for years and you have a fringe player like CJ come to you in front of the main group at training tell me how you would have handled it differently....... keep in mind there was no chance the club could have kept him at any stage leading up to the trade week. If he has "friends/mates" at the club that took offense to this, then maybe they should be the first to go at the end of 09. this type of soft rubbish is no longer welcome at our great club and for me it is good to see!

BTW - as I have already stated I really rated CJ's improvement in 09 and was sad to see him go,

but facts are facts! :angry:

[furious d 472]

Where are your facts again? I did not want to do this as another thread has covered this already. Actually it is your info that is worthless.... Please read on

1stly have a good read of this before you comment re point 1.

http://www.melbournefc.com.au/tabid/7415/D...px?newsid=69495

“To do this, we offered Chris a new two year contract, but unfortunately he wanted to play for another, rival AFL club, and subsequently asked to be delisted."

Jeez Monty, I must've missed that earlier in the year (spent a month working in NSW). I hadn't been at all bothered by this whole CJ thing until now.

If we offered the ungrateful little [censored] 2 years and he still left there's a few CJ lovers on here that owe the club an apololgy.

Now I want to see McLean run straight through the little weed. Bring on round 21, better book a hospital bed for the traitor in advance.

[timD 994]

What, mo64 took the time to have another go at Dean Bailey with nothing but his own hot air to support himself?

Try this mo, tell the world how great you are by saying what you would have done, given all of hindsight.

Would you have tried to trade CJ?

Would you have accepted a pick in the 100's as offered? Would you have told CJ that he was up for trade?

Would you have offered a 2-3 year deal?

How would you react to CJ refusing to commit after you decided to keep him?

Let's all see the superiority of your decisions.

[mo64 5,880]

So the snr coach, a snr player? where are the facts that sylvia was sympathetic. there was an article a while back that painted a very different picture re the exchange.

Here's the article you were referring to. If you don't understand the meaning of the word "sympathetic", go buy yourself a dictionary.

http://www.realfooty.com.au/news/news/dean...6319006988.html

"The one-way conversation ended soon afterwards and it was not pretty. Colin Sylvia, who reportedly crossed paths with Johnson as he traipsed off the oval, regarded him with some sympathy and advised him to leave."

I found the fact that Bailey subsequently offered CJ a 2 year deal even more bemusing.

[montasaurus 0]

I found the fact that Bailey subsequently offered CJ a 2 year deal even more bemusing.

lets not argue over words, i'll stand corrected on that one!

But check your facts mo64 re the 2yr deal, he was offered this deal prior to indicating his wish to leave. But the last question still stands - how would have you handled it differently?

[mo64 5,880]

lets not argue over words, i'll stand corrected on that one!

But check your facts mo64 re the 2yr deal, he was offered this deal prior to indicating his wish to leave. But the last question still stands - how would have you handled it differently?

Ok, I'm not fussed that CJ has gone. He was a fringe player, and I'm hopeful that we'll get a better model of running half back with Grimes or Strauss. And I'm glad that we didn't sign him to a 2 year deal.

Firstly, belittling a person in front of his peers is poor management on any level. And I can't see how it improves Bailey's standing amongst the players, and does nothing for the so called "culture" of the club.

Secondly, Liam Pickering has a huge stable of clients. If we were to target one of his players down the track, do you think that he'd speak in glowing terms of the current MFC football department, when one of his clients was publicly humiliated?

Thirdly, why did we offer a fringe player a subsequent 2 year deal? Once Carlton offered him a 2 year deal, we should have just let him go with good wishes.

[montasaurus 0]

Firstly, belittling a person in front of his peers is poor management on any level. And I can't see how it improves Bailey's standing amongst the players, and does nothing for the so called "culture" of the club.

Bailey yelled to him again: "I want you to tell all your teammates that you no longer want to play for the Melbourne Football Club!"

If I was in the playing group the above statement would only reinforce baileys position with me - A leader of the club going forward. If you not with us, your against us.

Secondly, Liam Pickering has a huge stable of clients. If we were to target one of his players down the track, do you think that he'd speak in glowing terms of the current MFC football department, when one of his clients was publicly humiliated?

I think your drawing a very, very long bow on this one. If the MFC could offer a client of his a better deal next year previous history would be unlikely to impact on any negotiations.

its not like DB came out and said i'm glad CJ is going he is the most over rated footballer I have ever seen, quite the opporsite - "Bailey, intent on letting the Melbourne members know it did everything it could to convince Johnson to remain, was quoted on the club's website late on Friday. "There are no personal problems between myself and Chris, but we want players on our list who want to play for our jumper, and on this occasion Chris did not fit the bill," Bailey said. "

- Play for the jumper and not the $$$, thats a novel idea? Maybe the group at Visy and princess park can have a look at that.

Thirdly, why did we offer a fringe player a subsequent 2 year deal? Once Carlton offered him a 2 year deal, we should have just let him go with good wishes.

The club stated he was a required player, -Also as I have already stated I really rated CJ's improvement in 09 and was sad to see him go - so fringe or not he was clearly good enough to have a 2 yr contract offered by both parties. Thats what makes this debate so hard to swallow, clearly it was the terms not the club. Therefore in cases like this there is clearly bad blood and fair enough. he has made his bed and can now sleep in it.

A similar instance would have been mal michael when he went from Bris to Ess, very similar under the table crap from another club that is notorious for it and bris was less then polite about that situation. Had have it been carl-ess or coll-ess it would have been in the papers for months, So I would suggest that the MFC as a whole have actually been overly nice about the situation and have handled it extreemly well.

I would also suggest for CJ he is lucky he is AJ's son otherwise a bit more might have been made about this.

Sour Grapes - Absolutely

[mo64 5,880]

[The club stated he was a required player

Required players don't get thrown up as trade bait and offered 1 year deals.

[montasaurus 0]

Required players don't get thrown up as trade bait and offered 1 year deals.

Careful, I won't bother quoting any of the articles but....

He was offered 1yr + extra year on performance based = 2yrs if he was good enough, not 1yr.

Also he was not thrown up as trade bait, it was stated clubs asked about him during trade week. That does not mean we were trying to off load him, if we were I would suspect we would have taken anything we could have gotten for him but we didn't, we held firm that he was a required player.

Still interested to hear how the situation would have been handled better? (I'm sure a few others are as well )

[JACKATTACK 17]

CJ is a sook, ungrateful and deserves his new club as much as his new club deserves him.

The deal we offered was good, it was the right move considering the player.

DB didn't handle the situation at all well, clearly let his passion get the better of him and the whole event will have a negative effect on the playing group, particularly those who are his closest friends.

[beelzebub 23,382]

Bailey yelled to him again: "I want you to tell all your teammates that you no longer want to play for the Melbourne Football Club!"

If I was in the playing group the above statement would only reinforce baileys position with me - A leader of the club going forward. If you not with us, your against us.

I really have no problemn at all with this. Its akin to the infamous line in the sand at the Sqawkers ! Bailey doesnt want to waste time, resources or breath on aything that isnt FOR Melbourne. This is to me commendable.

Whether it ws his intent or not CJ has just written tickets for himself. He alone is goig to look a little silly if he cant fulfil them.

If CJ had had any sense he would have just shut up but his immaturity in handlig such aspects of his career are obvious now. A footballer's best retort is to do it on the field.

Some really good players have crossed from Melbourne to Carlton.. RDB..Spalding..Wells etc... Chris Johnson quite frankly would do well just to tie their laces !!

[timD 994]

Required players don't get thrown up as trade bait and offered 1 year deals.

And how exactly would you know this? Have you ever attended the trade days or been part of draft/trade negotiating for an AFL club? If not, then this goes again to consistency - that you accuse others of not have it while failing to demonstrate it yourself.

Put up or shut up mo. Say how you would ahve handled it.

As for your entire argument - that this was 'handled badly'- can you say what 'handled well' might have looked like and how you would have achieved it? Kinda crucial to your entire argument but you've not offered much

[alpha33 325]

On the subject of this two year contract offer, I heard Liam Paickering who I think is CJ's manager on radio and I'm sure he said that Melbourne never made a 2 year contract offer. It was only for one year.

So did we or didn't we?

If we did, was this communicated to the client or was already too late?