Right

I never compared those players with Valenti on ability level and for you to suggest that either shows that you are being mischievious and trying to cloud the issue or you just have not read what I have posted. My point was that like Valenti they struggled to cement a senior game early in thier careers.

Once you called my post silly and another time it was stupid and both times you apparently drew conclusions from my post that I thought certain players were comparable to Valenti which was plain wrong.

My main point being that IMO it is very difficult to come to a conclusion about Valenti's worth to the team at this point. I think it is a very brave man who would come out and say that Valenti is a dud or that Woneamirri is going to be a superstar etc, etc.

Right

I never compared those players with Valenti on ability level and for you to suggest that either shows that you are being mischievious and trying to cloud the issue or you just have not read what I have posted. My point was that like Valenti they struggled to cement a senior game early in thier careers.

Once you called my post silly and another time it was stupid and both times you apparently drew conclusions from my post that I thought certain players were comparable to Valenti which was plain wrong.

My main point being that IMO it is very difficult to come to a conclusion about Valenti's worth to the team at this point. I think it is a very brave man who would come out and say that Valenti is a dud or that Woneamirri is going to be a superstar etc, etc.

ok, fair enough, we'll agree to disagree.

Some interesting points of view considering the early state of Valenti,s career

I really think its too early to judge him and thats basically why he is being kept on the rookie list

He hasnt done anything outstanding

He has been given a taste of the big time which will make him well aware of his weakness,s

I really like his tenacity under pressure but the thing he will need to improve is his anticipation and disposal skills

the gap between VFL and AFL is light years and its great that Valenti has time on his side to make the grade of some of the players listed by other posters

who didnt have the leg speed of Judds etc

He could be a handy player me thinks

The kid has only played a few games in a team that was being flogged.

How can any of you know exactly what he'll be like ?

Geeeez, give the kid a chance to prove himself.

1. He can find the pill.

2. He seems to create space for himself.

3. His disposal seems to create good passages of play and is effective.

That's at least a start.....

The kid has only played a few games in a team that was being flogged.

How can any of you know exactly what he'll be like ?

Geeeez, give the kid a chance to prove himself.

1. He can find the pill.

2. He seems to create space for himself.

3. His disposal seems to create good passages of play and is effective.

That's at least a start.....

You say you can't judge him having played so few games.. but then you list his redeeming qualities.

Surely if you can do that you can list his shortcomings.

Weetra played even less games for MFC... should we have kept him on the list so he could prove himself?

What i'm getting at, is that you CAN make a judgement based on what he's shown so far. Especially when it comes to skill & physical attributes.

Football smarts & decision making take longer to gauge.

You say you can't judge him having played so few games.. but then you list his redeeming qualities.

Surely if you can do that you can list his shortcomings.

Weetra played even less games for MFC... should we have kept him on the list so he could prove himself?

What i'm getting at, is that you CAN make a judgement based on what he's shown so far. Especially when it comes to skill & physical attributes.

Football smarts & decision making take longer to gauge.

By all means people can list his attributes and shortcomings.

All I am saying is give the kid a chance. That's all.

BTW.....Weetra........seriously

Hart was a fringe player who played 273 games including 3 premeirships. Next!!

Oh, Greg Williams, another premeirship player who was arguably the best in and under in the comp whilst at his best.

Your examples border, no they cross the border into complete stupidity

By the way my argument was with Mo, but he's hitailed it outa here

If hitailed means that I had to leave for work rather than continue a senseless debate with yourself, then so be it.

As pointed out by dandeeman and jacey, players like Peter Bell, Greg Williams, and Sam Mitchell were either discarded by their original club, or overlooked in the draft because of their perceived lack of pace and height. That's why we are making comparisons with these players, because Valenti is at a similar stage in his career.

And if Shaun Hart was at Melbourne today, you'd consider him a fringe player. In his early years at Brisbane when they were a mediocre team, he was a fringe player. Under Matthews, when the side was full of champions, he was able to fulfill a role within the side. That's why it's ludicrous to suggest that Valenti isn't capable of playing in a good finals team.

I get the impression that you weren't around when Greg Williams and Shaun Hart were starting their VFL/AFL careers.

And btw, height is an irrelevancy in the modern game.

I agree Axis.

OMG!

IMO a counter attacking gameplan with acquired elite pacy midfielders and defenders through turning over the list IS what is required to beat the likes of the Hawthorn's and the Geelong's in a Grand Final.

This is problem that I have. By the time we've developed a list that's capable of matching the style of game that this season's grand finalists are playing, the game would have evolved once again, and we may be stuck with a plethora of one "player type" that is no longer relevant. This is exactly what happened after the 2000 grand final, when Daniher felt that we needed in his words "fat-a#se midfielders". So in subsequent drafts, we acquired the likes of Thompson, Mclean, Sylvia, Moloney and Jones.

The point that AOB rightfully made is that the "fat a#sed" types are not suited to a counter attacking game style. I've been making this point since the start of the season, when I've been saying that our list isn't suited to Bailey's gameplan. I'm particularly interested to see how Nathan Jones plays this year, because I believe that he's been the biggest victim of Bailey's gameplan.

Mo, you have no idea what the gameplan is going to be or how it will work. Your criticism of Bailey is boring, repetitive and inconsistent. You state that people should have patience with Valenti and don't offer the same consideration for a brand new coach - it is bloody amazing. As for saying that Jones is a victim of Bailey, well I did not realise that he was the complete package before now and that now we've ruined him!. Talk about unfounded melodrama.

Valenti is too short and too slow. The others listed are exceptions rather than the rule. Exceptions make bad examples - find what Valenti has that puts him anywhere near this exceptional group and then the comparison is worthwhile - no-one has done that. No-one will. I very much doubt that it is there. I am all for giving him another year to see what might come of it BUT I would play every one of the new recruits before I would play Shane. I know what he can do and we need to find people that can do it better.

Mo, you have no idea what the gameplan is going to be or how it will work. Your criticism of Bailey is boring, repetitive and inconsistent. You state that people should have patience with Valenti and don't offer the same consideration for a brand new coach - it is bloody amazing. As for saying that Jones is a victim of Bailey, well I did not realise that he was the complete package before now and that now we've ruined him!. Talk about unfounded melodrama.

Valenti is too short and too slow. The others listed are exceptions rather than the rule. Exceptions make bad examples - find what Valenti has that puts him anywhere near this exceptional group and then the comparison is worthwhile - no-one has done that. No-one will. I very much doubt that it is there. I am all for giving him another year to see what might come of it BUT I would play every one of the new recruits before I would play Shane. I know what he can do and we need to find people that can do it better.

timd, the reality of sport is that coaches aren't granted the luxury of time. And given our financial predicament, ongoing failure is something we can't afford.

And enlighten me as to what your first statement means, because I can't comprehend it. I would have thought by the way we drafted this year, that the gameplan is obvious to everyone, yourself excluded. And yes, nobody knows how it will work. That's my concern.

As far as Valenti is concerned, you are falling for the same ridiculous trap as Roost It. The players we mentioned weren't exceptional players at the same stage of their career as Valenti. I don't believe that Valenti will ever reach their heights as a player, but I believe that he can play a role in a good side. You obviously don't, so it's no point continuing to discuss it.

And explain to me what relevance height has for a modern day midfielder, when contested marks are a rarity?

This is problem that I have. By the time we've developed a list that's capable of matching the style of game that this season's grand finalists are playing, the game would have evolved once again, and we may be stuck with a plethora of one "player type" that is no longer relevant. This is exactly what happened after the 2000 grand final, when Daniher felt that we needed in his words "fat-a#se midfielders". So in subsequent drafts, we acquired the likes of Thompson, Mclean, Sylvia, Moloney and Jones.

The point that AOB rightfully made is that the "fat a#sed" types are not suited to a counter attacking game style. I've been making this point since the start of the season, when I've been saying that our list isn't suited to Bailey's gameplan. I'm particularly interested to see how Nathan Jones plays this year, because I believe that he's been the biggest victim of Bailey's gameplan.

I respect what you say but there will always be stoppages and always be a place for contested ball players in teams of footy. FWIW and getting off track I don't believe that Jones difficulties were as a result of any game plans. In fact a lack of quality running players that Jones could dump to probably contributed to his difficulties.

Just to add some points on two players here.

Firstly Greg Williams. Played for Carlton reserves where they were unimpressed by his lack of pace, returned to the country and then tried again when he again was rejected by the Blues. Went to Geelong where he quickly established himself as firsts player - won the award for best first year player and was promptly thrown a bucket load of cash by Dr Eddleston and the Swans (see Gerard Healy) The Cats did not want him to go, but couldn't match the offer. He was recognised then as being the best handballer in the business - Geelong absolutely did not cut him for being too slow, they wanted to keep him. Carlton then of course adopted their usual practice of buying back what they couldn't develop after the Swans nosedived.

Shaun Hart was only ever an average footballer when he started. He was small and not fast, but I wouldn't have said he was slow either. He persevered and he was able to cement a spot in a good lineup. He was solid and consistent, and I think it's fair to say benefitted from having the likes of Voss, Lappin, Aker and Black to ease the pressure, Marcus Ashcroft was another beneficiary. Two players whose reputations may not have been so favourable if they'd played in a lesser side.

I think any talk of Valenti being even in the same league as say Hart or Ashcroft is far too premature, probably the best example in our side is Junior. He is the same sort of solid contributor who would easily have established himself as part of a premiership midfield in another team, but because he plays for us is completely underrated by the rest of the football world. We simply don't have any players near the 'class' of a Diesel Williams in being able to dominate a midfield and make things happen. I hope given a couple of injury free years Brock McLean might, but all will be revealed in the fullness of time.

Firstly Greg Williams. Played for Carlton reserves where they were unimpressed by his lack of pace, returned to the country and then tried again when he again was rejected by the Blues.

Very few on this site would have realised that Greg Williams actually started his career at Carlton through the zone system. And I'm pretty sure he won the B&F at Geelong in his 1st season.

Peter Bell also started his career at Fremantle, and was delisted after 1 season.

Very few on this site would have realised that Greg Williams actually started his career at Carlton through the zone system. And I'm pretty sure he won the B&F at Geelong in his 1st season.

How many of those Grand Finals in the 80s and 90s would Geelong have won with Williams in the midfield with Bairstow and Couch and with Ablett, Brownless and Stoneham up forward?

timd, the reality of sport is that coaches aren't granted the luxury of time. And given our financial predicament, ongoing failure is something we can't afford.

And enlighten me as to what your first statement means, because I can't comprehend it. I would have thought by the way we drafted this year, that the gameplan is obvious to everyone, your self excluded. And yes, nobody knows how it will work. That's my concern.

As far as Valenti is concerned, you are falling for the same ridiculous trap as Roost It. The players we mentioned weren't exceptional players at the same stage of their career as Valenti. I don't believe that Valenti will ever reach their heights as a player, but I believe that he can play a role in a good side. You obviously don't, so it's no point continuing to discuss it.

And explain to me what relevance height has for a modern day midfielder, when contested marks are a rarity?

If we don't grant our new coach the luxury of time how is anything at this club going to change. He inherited a basket case and in 2 years has cleaned out the deadwood and thanks to lowly finishes, drafted what appears to be some talented youth. What is it you wanted him to do?

As for using Williams, Hart and Mitchell to spin an argument on Valenti your clutching at straws. These 3 are exceptions to the rule and considering the lack of research that went into new players then compared to now the comparison is worthless. Valenti is almost 22 and hasn't shown much to suggest he'll be anymore than a bit player while our new recruits establish their place in the team. The club's decision to rookie list him confirms this and in my opinion he won't make the grade and will be cut at year's end. No offence to the guy intended.

I don't care about comparing Valenti to any other players.

From what I have seen so far he has all the promise of being a very good footballer. Good skills (especially in close), good decision making and what really impresses me is that he always seems to be in space no matter how congested the situation. That is something that can be seen after just nine games and cannot be taught.

Valenti is almost 22 and hasn't shown much to suggest he'll be anymore than a bit player while our new recruits establish their place in the team.

So you've already penciled in our new recruits as guaranteed AFL standard players. Good work Roost It, keep it up......

So you've already penciled in our new recruits as guaranteed AFL standard players. Good work Roost It, keep it up......

Another cheap, ill founded response Mo. I haven't pencilled anything in even though alomost all of these players are way ahead of Valenti at this stage in their careers. If Valenti had half the talent and potential of these guys we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Another cheap, ill founded response Mo. I haven't pencilled anything in even though alomost all of these players are way ahead of Valenti at this stage in their careers. If Valenti had half the talent and potential of these guys we wouldn't be having this discussion.

You didn't disappoint me!!!!!!!

You didn't disappoint me!!!!!!!

And Mo your point is. I'm looking forward to this. Is this the bit where you tell me Bailey's recruited all the wrong players and Valenti is the real answer.

And Mo your point is. I'm looking forward to this. Is this the bit where you tell me Bailey's recruited all the wrong players and Valenti is the real answer.

My point is that you've never seen them play at any level of football, let alone AFL, yet you've come to the conclusion that they're ahead of Valenti at this stage of their careers. Based on what?

Mo, you have no idea what the gameplan is going to be or how it will work. Your criticism of Bailey is boring, repetitive and inconsistent. You state that people should have patience with Valenti and don't offer the same consideration for a brand new coach - it is bloody amazing. As for saying that Jones is a victim of Bailey, well I did not realise that he was the complete package before now and that now we've ruined him!. Talk about unfounded melodrama.

Valenti is too short and too slow. The others listed are exceptions rather than the rule. Exceptions make bad examples - find what Valenti has that puts him anywhere near this exceptional group and then the comparison is worthwhile - no-one has done that. No-one will. I very much doubt that it is there. I am all for giving him another year to see what might come of it BUT I would play every one of the new recruits before I would play Shane. I know what he can do and we need to find people that can do it better.

Great assessment timD and I agree in all respects. Well done.

Is a rookie allowed to nominate for the November Draft? i.e. could Valenti have nominated?

My point is that you've never seen them play at any level of football, let alone AFL, yet you've come to the conclusion that they're ahead of Valenti at this stage of their careers. Based on what?

Would you take Valenti ahead of anyone we've recruited this year? If you answer yes can you give us a reason.

P.S. This has become argument for argument's sake.

Valenti certainly deserves a chance given his form at VFL level and what he has shown in his first season for the Dees.

He is slow but has great hands. Another year will start to tell the real story.

I watched Garland play against the doggies I think in one of the early games this year, and though this bloke was just shocking, I mean really shocking and look at him now!!

Now everyone is all over Garland. Might be the same people who will become turncoats from this thread and support Valenti if he makes the grade.

Give the boy a chance.