On 14/12/2014 at 01:31, gsmith12 said:

We have any number of ODI types who can replace MC in the WC however not so at Test level.

Not arguing, just sayin'.

Yeah, I agree Smithy but whether he plays in the World cup or not is largely up to Michael (fitness permitting of course)

He will want to play in the tournament and if he gets himself up for it, I believe the selectors will give him the go ahead. If it were up to me I reckon he should have started concentrating on Tests only as soon as his back started giving him major concerns.

But we're talking about a highly driven individual who doesn't want to quit.

But back onto the test just completed.

Well done once more to Nathan Lyon. To put it all into perspective as far as what he's achieved so far in his career, he is now 3rd on the list of all time Australian wicket takers as far as finger spinners are concerned as his 12 wicket hall moved him past Monty Noble and into 25th overal for Australian wicket takers with 127.

He's now only 5 wickets behind Ashley Mallett and 14 behind Hugh Trumble to become our greatest ever off spin wicket taker which is an amazing achievement. And in other wicket taking news, Peter Siddle is only 8 wickets shy of becoming the 15th Australian to the 200 wicket mark, but sadly I don't think he'll ever get the opportunity to add to his 192.

  On 14/12/2014 at 03:15, Macca said:

Yeah, I agree Smithy but whether he plays in the World cup or not is largely up to Michael (fitness permitting of course)

He will want to play in the tournament and if he gets himself up for it, I believe the selectors will give him the go ahead. If it were up to me I reckon he should have started concentrating on Tests only as soon as his back started giving him major concerns.

But we're talking about a highly driven individual who doesn't want to quit.

Agree with what you say Macca.

Up until yesterday I was hoping the World Cup would be his ODI swan song and he'd keep going with Tests for a few more years yet. But given these injuries just keep surfacing, I no longer reckon the World Cup is worth the risk. As if he picks up a major injury, it could force him out of the Ashes, which for me has to be the main objective.

I hope he can bounce back and remain injury free. But his fitness is becoming a major concern, and in my opinion ODI cricket just may have to make way now in order to make sure we can get him through tests.

  On 14/12/2014 at 03:32, Tall Defence said:

Agree with what you say Macca.

Up until yesterday I was hoping the World Cup would be his ODI swan song and he'd keep going with Tests for a few more years yet. But given these injuries just keep surfacing, I no longer reckon the World Cup is worth the risk. As if he picks up a major injury, it could force him out of the Ashes, which for me has to be the main objective.

I hope he can bounce back and remain injury free. But his fitness is becoming a major concern, and in my opinion ODI cricket just may have to make way now in order to make sure we can get him through tests.

Only time will tell ... I suppose when you weigh it all up he's going to have to deal with 4 injury issues ... his lower back issue which may or may not be related to his existing back injury plus ... he went into the match with a dodgy left hammy and then tore his right hammy on the last day - if it's "off the bone" then he'll struggle to get back for the WC.

It's a hell of a lot to overcome and then he's got to get match fit. I'm a fan of Clarke so I'm hoping he gets back in time for the World cup. If not, the Ashes beckon. I'd hate to see him forced into retirement because of injury.

  On 14/12/2014 at 03:28, Tall Defence said:

But back onto the test just completed.

Well done once more to Nathan Lyon. To put it all into perspective as far as what he's achieved so far in his career, he is now 3rd on the list of all time Australian wicket takers as far as finger spinners are concerned as his 12 wicket hall moved him past Monty Noble and into 25th overal for Australian wicket takers with 127.

He's now only 5 wickets behind Ashley Mallett and 14 behind Hugh Trumble to become our greatest ever off spin wicket taker which is an amazing achievement. And in other wicket taking news, Peter Siddle is only 8 wickets shy of becoming the 15th Australian to the 200 wicket mark, but sadly I don't think he'll ever get the opportunity to add to his 192.

This just goes to show how bare the cupboard has been, really.

And without wanting to be too harsh on a guy who has just bowled us to victory, it probably also shows the overall worth of specialist off-spinners in general at Test level.

  On 14/12/2014 at 07:47, Nasher said:

This just goes to show how bare the cupboard has been, really.

And without wanting to be too harsh on a guy who has just bowled us to victory, it probably also shows the overall worth of specialist off-spinners in general at Test level.

I see what you mean Nasher.

Outside of the sub-continent I'd have to agree with you, off spin bowlers just don't seem o have the same success that the pace or leg spinners have been able to get.

Only one off spin bolwer outside the sub-continent has taken more then 200 wickets and that's Graeme Swan with 255, the next closest is another Englishman in Jim Laker who according to Richie Beneaud is the best off spin bowler he ever saw play. Laker took 193 wickets with a bowling average around 21.

The other non sub-continent nations best performers have been Hugh Tayfield from South Africe who took 170 but stopped playing in 1960, Sonny Ramadhin for the Windies with 158 who finished in 1961 and Hugh Trumble for Australia with 141 who stopped in 1904. Worth noting New Zealand haven't produced one off spin bowler to get to 100 wickets.

Once you look at Sri Lanka, India & Pakistan all of the sudden we see names like Muralithern, Harbijan Singh, Saqlain Mushtag & Saeed Ajmal who get to play on dust bowls on a regula basis.

Nathan Lyon has been able to play a role in this Australian team and shown steady improvement while doing so. Something Hauritz was unable to do and none of the many spinenrs tried looked like being capable of doing. If he's able to become our first ever off spin bowler to 150 wickets and the second ever outside the sub-continent then it's a credit to him and to the coaches who have been able to turn him into a valuable player. I stiil don't think he's effective playing in the sub-continent though given his style of bowling.

  On 14/12/2014 at 21:40, Tall Defence said:

I see what you mean Nasher.

Outside of the sub-continent I'd have to agree with you, off spin bowlers just don't seem o have the same success that the pace or leg spinners have been able to get.

Only one off spin bolwer outside the sub-continent has taken more then 200 wickets and that's Graeme Swan with 255, the next closest is another Englishman in Jim Laker who according to Richie Beneaud is the best off spin bowler he ever saw play. Laker took 193 wickets with a bowling average around 21.

The other non sub-continent nations best performers have been Hugh Tayfield from South Africe who took 170 but stopped playing in 1960, Sonny Ramadhin for the Windies with 158 who finished in 1961 and Hugh Trumble for Australia with 141 who stopped in 1904. Worth noting New Zealand haven't produced one off spin bowler to get to 100 wickets.

Once you look at Sri Lanka, India & Pakistan all of the sudden we see names like Muralithern, Harbijan Singh, Saqlain Mushtag & Saeed Ajmal who get to play on dust bowls on a regula basis.

Nathan Lyon has been able to play a role in this Australian team and shown steady improvement while doing so. Something Hauritz was unable to do and none of the many spinenrs tried looked like being capable of doing. If he's able to become our first ever off spin bowler to 150 wickets and the second ever outside the sub-continent then it's a credit to him and to the coaches who have been able to turn him into a valuable player. I stiil don't think he's effective playing in the sub-continent though given his style of bowling.

You have overlooked one of the greats, Lance Gibbs 309 @ 29.09

Derek Underwood 297 @ 25.83

Yeah I can't believe that I overlooked Lance Gibbs, pretty big oversight there. I lost him in the sea of awesome West Indian fast bowlers.

Deadly Underwood's left arm orthodox I think is a field all on it's own which includes the likes of Vettori. Yes they're bowling off spin, but it's spinning the other way, so personally I class it in it's own category.

  On 15/12/2014 at 01:27, Tall Defence said:

Yeah I can't believe that I overlooked Lance Gibbs, pretty big oversight there. I lost him in the sea of awesome West Indian fast bowlers.

Deadly Underwood's left arm orthodox I think is a field all on it's own which includes the likes of Vettori. Yes they're bowling off spin, but it's spinning the other way, so personally I class it in it's own category.

Agree Deadly Derek and Vettori are exceptions, can't think of other prolific lefties off hand.

Bishan Bedi (266 wickets) ... in 67 tests ... he'd probably play a lot more tests these days.

Pragyan Ojha is well on his way to a successful career as well (113 wickets)

In terms of guile, drift, change of pace, spinning ability, use of the crease & flight, Bedi was the best finger spinner I've seen ... many who faced him have had similar praise for him.

Underwood was a different type of bowler - much quicker through the air and extremely accurate - he could turn it too and when the conditions were in his favour, he was brilliant.

Steve Smith named Australian Test captain for rest of Test series against India

  On 15/12/2014 at 03:23, Macca said:

Bishan Bedi (266 wickets) ... in 67 tests ... he'd probably play a lot more tests these days.

Pragyan Ojha is well on his way to a successful career as well (113 wickets)

In terms of guile, drift, change of pace, spinning ability, use of the crease & flight, Bedi was the best finger spinner I've seen ... many who faced him have had similar praise for him.

Underwood was a different type of bowler - much quicker through the air and extremely accurate - he could turn it too and when the conditions were in his favour, he was brilliant.

Yes Bedi is another very good sub-continent finger spinner who often had batsmen in all sorts especially on the turning tracks of India.

  On 15/12/2014 at 05:20, Macca said:

Steve Smith named Australian Test captain for rest of Test series against India

Big call, can see the arguments for and against.

He's clearly the leader for the future, however given he's batting so well I'm almost concerned we may be asking to much of him to soon. I would have though Haddin being named captain with Smith as Vice Captain and moving up to number 4 may have been enough of a step up to begin with. Having said that if (worst case scenario) Clarke is forced into retirement, then it makes sense to give the gig to Smith now.

Another slight concern I have is the potential awkwardness it creates as far as leadership amongst the Test & ODI it could cause. For example if Clarke misses the World Cup, is George Bailey to get the ODI captains gig for the tournament like he had in the series against South Africa, even though Smith was and will be in the team, or do we give Smith both gigs? It's an interesting scenario that will or could arise.

Best of luck for him for the rest of the series, so far 214 runs without being dismissed, so lets hope he can do more of the same in Brisbane with the extra responsability.

Bruce Yardley was handy .

Good bat,good catch too.

  On 15/12/2014 at 09:53, Tall Defence said:

Yes Bedi is another very good sub-continent finger spinner who often had batsmen in all sorts especially on the turning tracks of India.

Big call, can see the arguments for and against.

He's clearly the leader for the future, however given he's batting so well I'm almost concerned we may be asking to much of him to soon. I would have though Haddin being named captain with Smith as Vice Captain and moving up to number 4 may have been enough of a step up to begin with. Having said that if (worst case scenario) Clarke is forced into retirement, then it makes sense to give the gig to Smith now.

Another slight concern I have is the potential awkwardness it creates as far as leadership amongst the Test & ODI it could cause. For example if Clarke misses the World Cup, is George Bailey to get the ODI captains gig for the tournament like he had in the series against South Africa, even though Smith was and will be in the team, or do we give Smith both gigs? It's an interesting scenario that will or could arise.

Best of luck for him for the rest of the series, so far 214 runs without being dismissed, so lets hope he can do more of the same in Brisbane with the extra responsability.

Bedi took 129 of his 266 wickets outside of India ... Ojha bowls in a similar way but he's not in Bedi's class (not yet anyway)

I reckon the captaincy may well improve Smith as a cricketer ... he's on a big upward curve anyway and sometimes greater responsibility brings out the best in a sportsperson. He's a confident young bloke and from what I've read and heard about him, he reads the game very well.

  On 15/12/2014 at 10:25, Biffen said:

Bruce Yardley was handy .

Good bat,good catch too.

... and lets not forget that Roo was awarded the 'International cricketer of the year' in the early 80's ... I remember him having a big summer that year - 35+ wickets against Pakistan and the Windies?

Spun his offies with his middle finger too - maybe that explains the bounce he used to get.

Well it'll certainly be a different looking team for the GABBA test!

http://www.theage.com.au/sport/cricket/josh-hazlewood-mitchell-starc-replace-ryan-harris-peter-siddle-for-second-test-20141216-128677.html

Hopefully the bouncy GABBA wicket should suit both Hazlewood & Starc and hopefully we'll see Rhino back for Boxing Day with any luck.

Smith to number 4 no great suprise I don't think. The question will be which Shaun Marsh will turn up this time at number 5? Golden Duck, or one of the best 150's we'll ever see?

http://www.theage.com.au/sport/cricket/ireland-would-boost-test-cricket-jason-gillespie-20141215-1281o1.html#comments

This!

In the 2007 World Cup they had wins over Pakistan, Bangladesh and drew with Zimbabwe.

2011 they beat England & Netherlands and really pushed India, West Indies & Bangladesh. (Chocked in the Bangladesh game in fact.)

They've done far more then either Zimbabwe or Bangladesh did when they achieved Test status. Could be the shot in the arm test cricekt needs. I know I'm looking forward to attending their ODI during the World Cup against Zimbabwe down at Bellrieve Oval in March next year.

  On 14/12/2014 at 03:28, Tall Defence said:

But back onto the test just completed.

Well done once more to Nathan Lyon. To put it all into perspective as far as what he's achieved so far in his career, he is now 3rd on the list of all time Australian wicket takers as far as finger spinners are concerned as his 12 wicket hall moved him past Monty Noble and into 25th overal for Australian wicket takers with 127.

He's now only 5 wickets behind Ashley Mallett and 14 behind Hugh Trumble to become our greatest ever off spin wicket taker which is an amazing achievement. And in other wicket taking news, Peter Siddle is only 8 wickets shy of becoming the 15th Australian to the 200 wicket mark, but sadly I don't think he'll ever get the opportunity to add to his 192.

Was looking at the raw stats in the Courier-Mail this morning.

Trumble is a mile ahead of the others for wickets taken per test and average cost per wicket, still Lyon has some time to improve those figures.

  On 16/12/2014 at 02:32, Tall Defence said:

Well it'll certainly be a different looking team for the GABBA test!

http://www.theage.com.au/sport/cricket/josh-hazlewood-mitchell-starc-replace-ryan-harris-peter-siddle-for-second-test-20141216-128677.html

Hopefully the bouncy GABBA wicket should suit both Hazlewood & Starc and hopefully we'll see Rhino back for Boxing Day with any luck.

Smith to number 4 no great suprise I don't think. The question will be which Shaun Marsh will turn up this time at number 5? Golden Duck, or one of the best 150's we'll ever see?

India will field a stronger unit with Dhoni back and Ashwin likely to play.

  On 16/12/2014 at 09:19, gsmith12 said:

India will field a stronger unit with Dhoni back and Ashwin likely to play.

Very true. Wouldn't be suprised also if they include Jadeja at the expense of Rohit Sharma to help them take some more wickets, seeing as they only took 12 for the whole first test.

Jadeja has a first class batting average of about 46 and he's shown he's a very good left arm orthodox spinner, so the 5th bowling option may help them. He could bat at 7 and Dhoni at 6.

  On 14/12/2014 at 03:28, Tall Defence said:

But back onto the test just completed.

Well done once more to Nathan Lyon. To put it all into perspective as far as what he's achieved so far in his career, he is now 3rd on the list of all time Australian wicket takers as far as finger spinners are concerned as his 12 wicket hall moved him past Monty Noble and into 25th overal for Australian wicket takers with 127.

He's now only 5 wickets behind Ashley Mallett and 14 behind Hugh Trumble to become our greatest ever off spin wicket taker which is an amazing achievement. And in other wicket taking news, Peter Siddle is only 8 wickets shy of becoming the 15th Australian to the 200 wicket mark, but sadly I don't think he'll ever get the opportunity to add to his 192.

Remarkable achievements from Lyon since the Indian tour debacle and the overlooking for AOAA in the first 2 tests of the ashes.His record since is one of the best performed players in the test squad overall.

Poor day for the Aussies.

Shaun (selectors new pet) Marsh dropping not just one but two catches, Mitch Marsh does his hamstring, Hazlewood limps off the field towards the end of play and both Stac and Johnson looking stiff also. I'm already thinking we may need to hope for as much rain as possible over these next 4 days.

So Harris & possibly even Siddle could be finding themselves back in the XI by boxing day depending on how Hazlewood & Starc are given the quick turn around. Also the question will be asked of who comes in for Mitch Marsh. Personally I'd go with Voges. Bat him at 5, move Shaun Marsh to 3 and move Watson down to 6 as he'll need to do more bowling now with Mitch Marsh likely gone for the remaining tests.

  On 17/12/2014 at 08:59, Tall Defence said:

Poor day for the Aussies.

Shaun (selectors new pet) Marsh dropping not just one but two catches, Mitch Marsh does his hamstring, Hazlewood limps off the field towards the end of play and both Stac and Johnson looking stiff also. I'm already thinking we may need to hope for as much rain as possible over these next 4 days.

So Harris & possibly even Siddle could be finding themselves back in the XI by boxing day depending on how Hazlewood & Starc are given the quick turn around. Also the question will be asked of who comes in for Mitch Marsh. Personally I'd go with Voges. Bat him at 5, move Shaun Marsh to 3 and move Watson down to 6 as he'll need to do more bowling now with Mitch Marsh likely gone for the remaining tests.

I think they planned the rotation since the Brisbane test was jammed into the slot between Adelaide & Melbourne tests. Harris most likely wouldn't get thru the 3 tests & still be OK. I think Siddle was dropped & stark was fillin for Harris.

Would like to see Faulkner in for Melbourne.

  On 17/12/2014 at 08:59, Tall Defence said:

Poor day for the Aussies.

Shaun (selectors new pet) Marsh dropping not just one but two catches, Mitch Marsh does his hamstring, Hazlewood limps off the field towards the end of play and both Stac and Johnson looking stiff also. I'm already thinking we may need to hope for as much rain as possible over these next 4 days.

So Harris & possibly even Siddle could be finding themselves back in the XI by boxing day depending on how Hazlewood & Starc are given the quick turn around. Also the question will be asked of who comes in for Mitch Marsh. Personally I'd go with Voges. Bat him at 5, move Shaun Marsh to 3 and move Watson down to 6 as he'll need to do more bowling now with Mitch Marsh likely gone for the remaining tests.

Terrible day.

Shaun Marsh's two dropped catches were horrendous, both of them displayed of terrible technique and were so atypical for Australian fielders. Multiple injuries and generally toothless bowling on a Brisbane pitch weren't great either.

If Marsh can't bowl then he shouldn't be playing on Boxing Day. Ed Cowan's making a stack of runs; I know he's an opener but with the form he's in maybe there's a spot at 3 for him?

  On 17/12/2014 at 11:33, titan_uranus said:

Terrible day.

Shaun Marsh's two dropped catches were horrendous, both of them displayed of terrible technique and were so atypical for Australian fielders. Multiple injuries and generally toothless bowling on a Brisbane pitch weren't great either.

If Marsh can't bowl then he shouldn't be playing on Boxing Day. Ed Cowan's making a stack of runs; I know he's an opener but with the form he's in maybe there's a spot at 3 for him?

A good effort in the field in the morning session saw the Indians rolled for 404, Hazlewood with 5 seems to be the next G McGrath.

Top order all got starts with only Rogers and Smith reaching fifties.

We have the job ahead of us.