Jamar can ruck, no doubt about it. Only problem is some days he does little around the ground. Other days he is a world beater. Not sure what to expect form him at this stage. Would be well worth seeing how he and PJ fair as the ruck tandem without white.

White down forward to allow Rush/pj duo?

PJ>Jamar.

This thread is all a bit too positive for my liking.

Jamar, is one of our worst players, 1 good game in the ruck doesn't change that. He won't get a game while PJ and White are fit.

Bruce is a tool, and he smothers Cometti. Dennis has been half the commentator since channel 7 got the footy, and I blame Bruce for that.

and if i hear Bruce say: "dare I say it, centimeter perfect" one more time......

Couldn't disagree with you more about everything you said. Jamar has played well since he came back into the team 3-4 weeks ago. His ruckwork has always been sound and, at times, very good. Sure, he doesn't get a lot of the ball around the ground but he provides an honest contest. He is a more pure ruckman than PJ in that he has a better ruckman's technique re tap work, and I actually think he is a more effective resting forward pocket than PJ.

I'm not bagging PJ, he is a good player but I think Jamar is under-rated.

As for Bruce, he is a gun and one of the best commentators going around. I think its fantastic when he gets all excited!! haha

There's far more to ruckman than possessions Dappa.

Really?

There is more to being a good AFL player than running into the biggest guy on the ground trying to get your hands to it first.

I didn't say the guy couldn't ruck. But I'd rather a guy who can break even in the ruck department while threatening to get 20+ possessions.

Opposition coaches (up until Sunday) must love seeing Jamar's name on the sheet. They know that possession-wise they're playing against 21 and a bit players. And matching him up around the ground is easy as pie. You don't have to worry about your defender betting run into the ground...

Besides, just winning the taps isn't everything. Usually he wins a lot of taps but doesn't necessarily give his mids first use. White was like this. He gets 20 taps a match, some come off, some don't... but he'll add to it with at least 15 possessions, sometimes closer to thirty.

This is turning into a Jamar bashing post. Not my intention, and thoroughly undeserved after Sunday. Look, if he plays like that 75% of the time from now on, then he has to be looked at for next year. But if he returns to ineffective footy, then my opinion of him will return to what it was before the Freo game. Simple.

Really?

There is more to being a good AFL player than running into the biggest guy on the ground trying to get your hands to it first.

I didn't say the guy couldn't ruck. But I'd rather a guy who can break even in the ruck department while threatening to get 20+ possessions.

Opposition coaches (up until Sunday) must love seeing Jamar's name on the sheet. They know that possession-wise they're playing against 21 and a bit players. And matching him up around the ground is easy as pie. You don't have to worry about your defender betting run into the ground...

Besides, just winning the taps isn't everything. Usually he wins a lot of taps but doesn't necessarily give his mids first use. White was like this. He gets 20 taps a match, some come off, some don't... but he'll add to it with at least 15 possessions, sometimes closer to thirty.

This is turning into a Jamar bashing post. Not my intention, and thoroughly undeserved after Sunday. Look, if he plays like that 75% of the time from now on, then he has to be looked at for next year. But if he returns to ineffective footy, then my opinion of him will return to what it was before the Freo game. Simple.

Great post. Could not agree more. People seem to have short memories about how well PJ was playing, blinded purely by one good game from Jamar.

Jamar did a good negating role on sandilands

Sandilands was awesome against the cats

Jamar wouldnt have great stats but i can assure you this was an inportant part in us beating Fremantle

Still want to see our other rucks in action this season

Hope Bailey dont forget he has them

Jamar has played one good game. Count it. One.

One.... two. He was just as good last week against Brisbane. But we got thumped, so nobody noticed.

Dappa, I reckon you underestimate the value of having a huge, effective body in the middle. When Jamar's rucking we win clearances, and when he's not, we don't. I haven't got any evidence to back that up, but it's what my eyes tell me. Jamar uses his massive frame better than PJ and much, much better than White (probably because poor White is so small). IMO that is every bit as important as getting possessions around the ground. Jeff White has had a stack of possessions every game so far this year. How do you rate his influence on games? There's a very good reason why Jamar started on the field this week and it's not because Jeff is no good.

I reckon Jamar gets a raw deal because people look for the obvious (stats) and not the subtleties.

PJ>Jamar.

I agree. However:

If we're serious about building for the future, both Jamar and PJ need to play equal time in the ruck for the rest of the year. White can play up forward or as a spare man in defence.

This is what I think should happen. Try PJ as no. 1 ruckman, Jamar as no. 2 and play White around the ground. White can kick goals and can take a decent mark so could make a makeshift forward. He's also been playing loose in defence through the year so could go there as well. I still think White is too hampered by the centre circle thing whereby he can't time his jump properly.

Jamar did a good negating role on sandilands

Sandilands was awesome against the cats

Jamar wouldnt have great stats but i can assure you this was an inportant part in us beating Fremantle

Can't help thinking there was a strong Chris Conolly / Kelly O'Donnell influence in the way the Russian took on Sandilands on Sunday.

I would like to see white move into a semi-retirement role, deep forward or back.

I know he is good around the ground, but I also think he is proffessional enough and smart enough to switch without too much of a problem.

Jamar would take ruck spot 1 (sink or swim) and PJ as relief but serve as an 'around the ground' tall as well.

If it fails, draft naitanui... problem solved

One.... two. He was just as good last week against Brisbane. But we got thumped, so nobody noticed.

Dappa, I reckon you underestimate the value of having a huge, effective body in the middle. When Jamar's rucking we win clearances, and when he's not, we don't. I haven't got any evidence to back that up, but it's what my eyes tell me. Jamar uses his massive frame better than PJ and much, much better than White (probably because poor White is so small). IMO that is every bit as important as getting possessions around the ground. Jeff White has had a stack of possessions every game so far this year. How do you rate his influence on games? There's a very good reason why Jamar started on the field this week and it's not because Jeff is no good.

I reckon Jamar gets a raw deal because people look for the obvious (stats) and not the subtleties.

Agree Nasher.

Can't help thinking there was a strong Chris Conolly / Kelly O'Donnell influence in the way the Russian took on Sandilands on Sunday.

Might be the case. However, its an old tactic that when you giving 12 to 15 cms away in height, you jump early and you jump into your man as you ruck. It took its toll against Sandilands and Jamar should take some credit. Even White started to get the hint too.

I would like to see white move into a semi-retirement role, deep forward or back.

I know he is good around the ground, but I also think he is proffessional enough and smart enough to switch without too much of a problem.

B2L, White has shown over the years that he cant hold down a position either forward or back. His inability to provide a constant physical contest in the mark and around the ball crucifies him. If he cant ruck he is finished. He is in his twilight and this may be his last year.

Meesen's not getting a mention here - do people not rate him, or does he need more development, or should we never have taken him or what?

B2L, White has shown over the years that he cant hold down a position either forward or back. His inability to provide a constant physical contest in the mark and around the ball crucifies him. If he cant ruck he is finished. He is in his twilight and this may be his last year.

I would back his talents he does have and his proffesionalism enough to give him half a year of dead-rubber games as a tester. If it doesn't work then the same conclusion has been reached, if it does he can add value to our team and play for an extra couple of years as a forward.

Meesen's not getting a mention here - do people not rate him, or does he need more development, or should we never have taken him or what?

Does the feel of cottonwool ring any bells for ya.

I would back his talents he does have and his proffesionalism enough to give him half a year of dead-rubber games as a tester. If it doesn't work then the same conclusion has been reached, if it does he can add value to our team and play for an extra couple of years as a forward.

Over the years when played forward he has not got a clue where to move and just does not play body on body. He is not a natural goal kicking ruckman as his 110 career goals in 260 games attest. I just dont see any value in trying to re invent a 31yo to be something he clearly isnt. Up forward we need a tall physical presence that can kick goals, take marks and provide opportunities to other forwards in contested ball situations. Thats not Jeff White.

Jeff White can retire gracefully. We've got our special memory. Like, the goal in round 21, 2005 to sink the Bulldogs' finals hopes. That was another miracle win, another nail-biting comeback. We're fast becoming the comeback kings. Another great walk away from the 'G that afternoon, amazing atmosphere between one bunch of elated fans and the others totally gutted.

This'll bring back the memories, 22 August:

http://www.demonblog.com/archives/2005/08/index.php

Over the years when played forward he has not got a clue where to move and just does not play body on body. He is not a natural goal kicking ruckman as his 110 career goals in 260 games attest. I just dont see any value in trying to re invent a 31yo to be something he clearly isnt. Up forward we need a tall physical presence that can kick goals, take marks and provide opportunities to other forwards in contested ball situations. Thats not Jeff White.

Agreed. The only place I can imagine, (trying to invent a spot for the remainder of the season) is doing a 'Richo' on the wing, but I doubt that Whites disposal skill would stand up to that position. He would be steeling a place from a kid that we need to gain experience.

Really?

There is more to being a good AFL player than running into the biggest guy on the ground trying to get your hands to it first.

Well if he hurts Sandilands, Sandilands goes off and Warnock becomes the tallest.

He runs through Warnock and Johnson becomes the tallest etc etc

Cox aside, I'd rather have a guy like Will Minson and Jamie Charman who just crash and bash for 4 quarters than someone like Hille who thinks he's a wingman and gets double the touches but has half the influence of those guys

So what do we make of the recruiting of Meesen? I was one of about 12 Demon supporters at the pre-season game v Geelong, largely to see chaps like Meesen play.
As soon as I saw him I was amazed--he appears to be no taller than White/ Jamar, despite the claimed 201cm.
He didn't contest one centre bounce that day. He actually moved nicely, looked an athlete, but by no means a big ruckman of the future. Perhaps a CHF?
Anyone else watched him closely?

Jamar did a good negating role on sandilands

Sandilands was awesome against the cats

Jamar wouldnt have great stats but i can assure you this was an inportant part in us beating Fremantle

Still want to see our other rucks in action this season

Hope Bailey dont forget he has them

Over the years when played forward he has not got a clue where to move and just does not play body on body. He is not a natural goal kicking ruckman as his 110 career goals in 260 games attest. I just dont see any value in trying to re invent a 31yo to be something he clearly isnt. Up forward we need a tall physical presence that can kick goals, take marks and provide opportunities to other forwards in contested ball situations. Thats not Jeff White.

He can take marks, he does provide a physical presence and can kick a goal when given some realestate to do so and is a better option to do so than 95% of our list. Ultimately I don't think he can play as our ruck any longer, but I have enough respect for his footballing abilities and fitness to fill a role in our team that doesn't require as much pace and athleticism.

He can take marks, he does provide a physical presence and can kick a goal when given some realestate to do so and is a better option to do so than 95% of our list. Ultimately I don't think he can play as our ruck any longer, but I have enough respect for his footballing abilities and fitness to fill a role in our team that doesn't require as much pace and athleticism.

Any footballer can kick a goal when given enough space but 110 goals 74 points in 260 games does suggest anything special in that area.

And ever since the centre ruck rule came in, White has been crucified at the bounce and has little impact when the ball hits the ground. Jamars physical performance on Sandilands highlights what MFC has not gotten out of White. White has been a stirling athlete for some time but if you dont think he can ruck anymore then in the modern game of running football there is no where for him to hide. And at 31 he is older than 95% of the list and we should be looking for more robust solutions through either our list or through draft/trade.

Any footballer can kick a goal when given enough space but 110 goals 74 points in 260 games does suggest anything special in that area.

And ever since the centre ruck rule came in, White has been crucified at the bounce and has little impact when the ball hits the ground. Jamars physical performance on Sandilands highlights what MFC has not gotten out of White. White has been a stirling athlete for some time but if you dont think he can ruck anymore then in the modern game of running football there is no where for him to hide. And at 31 he is older than 95% of the list and we should be looking for more robust solutions through either our list or through draft/trade.

What's disappointing is that blind freddy could see that the centre circle rule was going to affect him more than anyone else. We should have made the hard call back then and traded White when he had value. Collingwood at the time, for eg, would have paid a fortune. Instead, we didn't make the hard call and we pay the price.

Well if he hurts Sandilands, Sandilands goes off and Warnock becomes the tallest.

He runs through Warnock and Johnson becomes the tallest etc etc

Cox aside, I'd rather have a guy like Will Minson and Jamie Charman who just crash and bash for 4 quarters than someone like Hille who thinks he's a wingman and gets double the touches but has half the influence of those guys

You make a good point there... but consider this. Charman and Minson will take 4-6 marks minimum, and get around the 20-mark for possessions. Charman even more. What makes these ruckmen the best is that they add possessions to their ruckwork. White's the same.

Even if Jamar got to a position similar to Lade, where he smashed them in the ruck, then went forward and was good for some linking marks, and 2 goals a game. But again, an opposition coach would be thrilled to see this because he can just plonk his biggest guy on him, and he knows his player will get 10 touches a quarter, will play loose, run off him, and still be able to rest...

It's not that he doesn't get enough possessions. It's that he gets almost none at all. More often than not he got 4 last season. He got 9 on Sunday. And look how well he went! If we can get him up to 15... well then I reckon he might be in for some long matches in the ruck for the demons.

Charman possy wise I agree, but not sure Minson would take as many marks as you reckon.

Even then the game against the Saints (I think) he (Minson) had about 8 touches but every pack marking attempting he almost rucked and hit the ball straight at his own feet whilst cleaning up about 5 players in the process. Reckon Doggies got 3 crumbing goals as a direct result of this.

Physically I think Jamar and Minson are pretty similar (Will may be slightly taller) so if Jamar can do a similar job to what Minson does he'll be effective.

Whether he manages to even get there is a separate matter altogether

Even then the game against the Saints (I think) he (Minson) had about 8 touches but every pack marking attempting he almost rucked and hit the ball straight at his own feet whilst cleaning up about 5 players in the process. Reckon Doggies got 3 crumbing goals as a direct result of this

Physically I think Jamar and Minson are pretty similar (Will may be slightly taller) so if Jamar can do a similar job to what Minson does he'll be effective.

Whether he manages to even get there is a separate matter altogether

Jamar and Minson, despite their similar dimensions and weight, and style of play, arent neccessarily well physically matched. Jamar is big and strong, but moves like an ox and doesnt have a terribly big engine. He doesnt have the running ability of a Minson, or Charman, Ben Hudson and many of the like, 'bang-crash' type ruckman in the league.

I went to the WB v St Kilda game u mentioned with a friend who goes for the Saints, and the thing that impressed me most about Minson's performance that day, was when he was 'resting' up forward. His willingness to lead hard on numerous occasions and draw his teammates opponents toward him, forming big packs for the Doggies crumbers was good to watch. He might not have marked many, but his athleticism allowed him to constantly present and get to the ball, making him a dangerous target. It was a set play, as the Doggies always had lots of numbers at the fall, but it only worked because Minson was able to run hard enough to constantly present.

Jamar, on the other had, has physical limitations that have threatened his success at the highest level. As a forward he doesnt have the motor to make numerous leads, nor the burst speed to beat his opponent fast-leading, so relies heavily on his height in overhead marking and strength in one-on-one contesting to become dangerous-- hanging back in the goal square and calling for the long high ball. He doesnt make room thru constant forwardline movement, instead he occupies it. This becomes rather predictable for opposition defences and contributes to unwanted 'cluttered forward lines'. Around the ground, he doesnt find much footy because his lack of smarts coupled with those physical limitations don't allow him to easily make space and be useful when we have the ball. His movements are largely dictated by where his opponent goes. This can be great at stoppages and in contested 'traffic' situations, but once we have the footy, we're basically playing with 21 men possesion wise as he rarely makes himself an offensive option.

I noticed you said you prefered Minson to Hille at the Bombers? I like Minson, but FWIW if i were to choose between having big Wil or David Hille, i'd probably almost always go for Hille. The only thing Minson has on his side is age (23 i think?). I like Hille's clean hands and ability to push forward and become a genuine leading target when down there. I haven't followed his career that closely, but i've always thought he was a consistent contributor at Essendon from what i've seen. Just out of interest, what is the general consensus among Don fans re: David Hille? How old is Hille, 27 this year?

Both Hille and Minson are miles ahead of Jamar IMO, but i would take PJ over both. His upside is better. Better skills and footy brain than Minson. Harder at the contest and 3 years younger than Hille.