DeeSpencer

Because it's preseason. We really haven't achieved anything yet. Our new midfield inclusions to get us so excited are a player who was just going through the motions at Adelaide in Vince, a 30+ player who was on the out at the bottom 4 dogs in Cross and a guy who spend most of his first 2 years injured in Tyson. We are all desperate for an 18 year old and 173cm player taken pick 40 in the draft to debut in the forward line as he looks far superior to Blease/Bail/Byrnes. Besides that our 2 key forwards can't get near the field and we are playing Cam Pedersen at CHF and Jake Spencer in the ruck in lead up to round 1. And I actually have some confidence that Pedersen isn't completely awful and can fill a role and same with an improved and good competitor in Spencer. The positive stuff is that the players are feeling confident, have trained hard and have actually shown us something in preseason (so far). I'm truly excited for round 1 and the season. I wish it started tomorrow. But there's not much that can be said about it until it happened. Essendon has largely happened and keeps happening. There's a lot to talk about even if you (like me) are even starting to feel sorry for the players and maybe even the club. Everyone deserves justice to be dealt with in a reasonable time frame and over a year to even work out if you will charge someone is a joke.

Just the same as someone with a lack of speed and not too much difference to someone with a lack of hardness. Georgiou looks a good pick up as he's hard at it, makes smart decisions and looks a natural at positioning his body to mark or spoil. But he's 187cm. If he was 195cm I'd have great confidence in him long term. Not so much bag but at times I'm going to bemoan the fact he's not genuine key position height. I'm sure dogs and hawks supporters do it with Dale Morris and Josh Gibson who are similar undersized 2nd or 3rd tall stopping defenders.

I'm going to bag Georgiou at some stage over his lack of height and kicking. I can see it coming already. But he's one I don't think I"ll bag about lack of effort or commitment. Without having a go at Saty I don't judge players attitude by the interpretation of comments made in quick conversations with him.

Might not be C graders as you put it but the initial focus will be on Dunn, McDonald, Trengove, Watts, Michie and Toumpas establishing themselves as consistent players. The team is going to take a while to settle down which i hope it does eventually and then we will see who out of Georgiou, Terlich, Strauss or Clisby is preferred down back. Same up forward with Bail, Blease, Byrnes and Tapscott. I still think it's early days with Evans. He looks a lot stronger this preseason and being out there the whole preseason will have boosted his fitness. I think he'll work in to the season nicely and I'm not too fussed about him. Yeah he might not have a heap of upside but I think he'll make a handy reliable player who can do bits and pieces forward and back. I'm keen to see him play in a settled and competitive side.

Clark I get. Dawes really had a solid injury record at Collingwood, had a minor knee op in preseason and now is only sidelined due to calf tightness. If they get him through this period he's got the mature body and fitness base over the years to play the rest of the season. Misson has had a decent record with soft tissue injuries over the years. So I'm hopeful Dawes plays for Casey next week and from then on it's pretty much fit, he might not be in round 1 but the rest of the year I expect his luck to turnaround.

For anyone that is interested I made Hawthorn's 27 in to a team view. FB: Stratton Heatherley Suckling HB: Birchall Gibson Hodge C: I. Smith Mitchell Hill HF: Shiels Roughead Bruest FF: Gunston Hale Puopolo Foll: McEvoy Sewell Lewis Int (from): Langford, Simpkin, Hallahan, Wanganeen, Woodward, Litherland, O'Brien, Ceglar, Cheney Missing: Burgoyne, Lake, Rioli If they don't drop any more out its most of their best 22 with a sprinkling of young players of which a lot of them are pretty hungry for those couple of spots in the team come round 1. Langford has looked really good so far as a tall big body tagging midfielder. Wanganeen has looked decent off half back. The one spot they are potentially vulnerable is full back whilst Lake and Schoenmakers are out. But NZ international rookie Kurt Heatherley has shown some talent and is a rangy type. Without our first choice key forwards we can't really exploit this much.

Tami Roos should really be giving meditation to the supporters as well as the players. Actually come to think of it she should do a session at half time at one of our games. Beats the blaring music or the silly bugle. I get frustrated but then I think back to Dawes last year who was hamstring, hamstring, calf, hamstring pretty much all season. Not to mention Clark. Anyway what's the difference between Clark and Dawes and Fitzpatrick and Pedersen? I'd say the first two if fit might be worth 50 and 40 goals over the course of the year. The second combination probably worth 30 and 20 goals. All up it's a difference of 2 goals a game. If we aren't good enough to cover that gap then we wont be much good anyway.

Spencer was monstering McEvoy last year against the saints. Until he decided to put his hip through him and knocked him out of the game! Hale is pretty smart so he might cause Spencer some troubles. Spencer seems to be improving at centre bounces to now be reasonable. But boundary throw ins because he's tall and lean he can still be pushed off his line. Agree about the midfield though. Is there a limit on who can play for Casey in the VFL practice match after the game? Surely we get those who miss out against the Hawks in to that game along with possibly Gawn and Kent.

Rawlings is worth considering. Besides that I'd be looking at one of the Freo, Sydney or Hawthorn assistants. Didn't get Simpson or Dew last year but it will potentially be much more attractive this year if we win a few games and we can present at least Hogan and Viney as stars of the future. Freo - Brett Kirk (maybe), Sumich (no), Mark Stone (worked for West Coast, then Sydney then Freo - watch this space). Hawthorn - Brett Ratten (worth asking the question), Cam Bruce (hell no!!!), Luke Beveridge (good resume), Brendon Bolton (highly regarded former tassie player) Sydney - Dew (already said no), Henry Player (doubt it), John Blakey (don't think so) Another team at least will finish top 4 and probably have a highly rated assistant on board.

From the Misson injury update and Clark article it sounds like a 22 regular season side featuring a sub to play the Hawks. Pedersen, Toumpas, Strauss, JKH, Viney all mentioned as due to play. I'd go with: FB: Dunn Frawley Georgiou HB: Grimes McDonald Strauss/Terlich/Clisby C: Watts Jones Cross HF: Michie Pedersen Toumpas FF: JKH Hogan Howe Foll: Spencer Vince Tyson Int: Fitzy, Trengove, Viney S: Bail Left out who could feature in round 1 ahead of that 22: Left over small defenders, Byrnes, Blease, Matt Jones, McKenzie?,

Obviously being conservative with Dawes. Hopefully he plays a VFL practice match next week (if not this week) and then can be right round 2 if 1 game isn't enough for round 1. Clark, who knows. Very happy to play the long waiting game with him.

I think the base wage is pretty low like 40k. But I presume you'd get VFL match payments that would be pretty decent and if he does get AFL match payments I think even for rookies it's over 2,000 a game. Play 10 games of AFL and the wage is looking healthier. Get promoted from the rookie list and all of a sudden he's looking at a 6 figure wage and probably more than what he was making previously. Become a semi regular on a nice contract and he's making way more than in years as an engineer. He's only just turned 24 so really he can take a chance and has lost nothing if it doesn't work out. It's more the guys who are considered being rookied at 27 or older and might have a family, mortgage and their career is probably transitioning from early days at the bottom of the ladder to somewhere up a few rungs who have more to lose and therefore have a tough choice to make.

You said the reason Taggert was delisted had nothing to do with the coach or recruiters choice? Now you say it is attitude. Well isn't part of the predraft screening an interview and background checks to work out what guys attitudes will be like? Wasn't Taggert the one who sent Neeld an email about why he should be picked or something of the like? Either way I don't want to focus on the past too much but I'm sure character is one of Viney/Taylor's key recruiting principles.

Agree. We all bag Nicholson and Bail etc when they can't kick. It's the same with Watts and tackling. In fact it's simpler because tackling isn't that difficult of a skill. To be honest I'd like to see him get a whack in the head like Toumpas got on the weekend. Hell I'd even like him to cop one from his own team mate or something. He just plays with no white line fever at all and it's reflected in his tackling and approach to contested ball.

Well care to spill? Personally I thought his skills and potential upside showed enough despite modest output. From the limited I saw of him, plus training, plus stats he certainly didn't get involved in games enough but seemed to have the ability in skills to mark, kick, tackle, handball etc. So if he got a preseason or two under his belt he may have taken it up a notch. There was also something a bit odd in that his VFL performances were reasonable and pretty much the whole list got a game besides him. I'd be guessing but I'd say it was either - His attitude/training/preparation was poor or - His body was a concern and thus they didn't think they'd ever get him to AFL fitness I haven't said anything about Neeld in this thread and not too many have. I've said BP was a bad recruiter but I've got no problem with that statement. His draft record (even influenced by substandard development) is pretty ordinary. Last I checked he's got a job at Carlton (not in recruiting) and is probably doing well. From my understanding he wasn't a specialist recruiter when Melbourne hired him and so I'd put the decision to hire him for that position as a club wide failure. That means the board and by extension us, the CEO, the coach (Bailey), the head of footy are all to blame. This thread was created to look back. It was a shocking time. Therefore the reflections will not be great. As long as the discussion is mainly about where and why not who then I don't see the need to be upset. Neeld and Prendergast will be mentioned, it doesn't have to result in outrage.

I don't mind if we only get 35 inside 50's we just have to decrease the differential. By spreading the ball around our back half we can control the time of possession and in turn stop the other teams inside 50 count swelling. Geelong's went through the roof in those periods they had the wind and control of the game. One thing I haven't seen us do a lot yet that isn't really related to tall forwards is lock the ball in our forward 50. So far Roos has been dragging the ruck behind play as a spare man which makes it easy for the other team to win a clearance and Spencer isn't all that useful as a loose behind the ball. I'd rather he pushed in and we used a midfielder like Watts just skirting between the pack and the other teams remaining forwards. Another thing I'm yet to see is enough intercept marks between the 50's. Garland is our best at that. But Frawley back and hopefully freeing up McDonald, Dunn and Grimes across half back should result in them halting attacks there. Terlich started to grab some marks on the weekend and it's something he brings to his game.

I'm hoping our tall forwards and rucks get fit and on the park this year and show what they can do. And of course that we sign Frawley. So for a needs basis to the team I think we will be looking at a young key defender to develop up as depth but besides that just getting the best available running players whether they are inside or outside mids or forwards or backs. Preferably we get someone who has versatility. A skillful left footed half back flank would be lovely to give some balance to the backline. And I wouldn't be opposed to another 205cm plus genuine big ruck prospect to develop in behind Gawn and Spencer. King looks good so far but at 200cm without a massive leap he's on the small side for modern rucks.

It's early days but his field and goal kicking has looked better this year. He's not a top 4 quality player (but then again is Puopolo) but I'm hoping for good things from Bail this year. If a few players like him hold his spot then it will mean we can actually develop JKH and Salem. I don't want JKH and Salem at Casey if they are our best 22, but ideally if Blease and Bail do well enough the youngsters will be better for it. The other thing is that forwards are very reliant on the work of the midfield and the work of other forwards. The likes of Toumpas and Bail using their top quality endurance to get out in space and drawing the ball means Hogan and Dawes have more room to lead in to. Which then means more fast play or more crumbs for the smalls again. It's all a vicious cycle that getting our 30 inside 50's a game has badly disrupted.

I'm not trying to kick him I'm just not on board with the idea that he'll be an instant success in the midfield. Things that have changed for him: A new coach with confidence, a new contract, increased endurance, better training are all great, but he's still a slim build, he's still going to have to work on his physicality, his two way running and his tackling. If he can average around 18-20 disposals with good efficiency and have less Jack Watts moments then he should build over time. Just because Roos is designing a role that suits his skill set doesn't mean instant success. Just because he has a heap of potential doesn't mean he's fixed flaws yet. The prevailing thought we have with players is they do a bunch of preseason training then they improve. I think more it's more realistic that players improve through a season. Take Dane Rampe from Sydney last year. Showed a little in preseason but then wasn't looking that great at the start of the year but as he settled in and the season went on he became more and more reliable. That's what I want to see from Watts. Proper patience and development.

I'm waiting for the Hawks game until I get any sense of confidence. Their were patches of our old self against Geelong that we turned around. The Hawthorn game will show us where we are at. Any kind of competitive effort and I might start getting a bit excited. The saints have Port at Alberton. It's fair to say travelling to face a superior team at their training ground is likely to result in a loss.

I think they'd rather play a better team so they don't suffer such an inglorious loss. Just like I'd rather play a better team in a lot of ways to get in to the season just because of how bad our round 1 performances have been! Losing round 1 to a top team as long as you aren't smashed isn't so bad. Losing round 1 to Melbourne or round 1 to an undermanned St Kilda isn't great. Whoever loses this game will be the instant target for media backlash.

There's a correlation between muscle mass particularly lower body and strength over the ball and in tackles. Only have to watch a few games of rugby to work that one out. There's been some 'look at this years Jack Watts v6.0 he looks so fit and lean and is running PB time trials'. My point is it would be more impressive if he was doing it and had some muscle behind him as well. I'm simply saying he's far from a complete package as an AFL athlete not that it can be used as an excuse any more.

2011 draft in a nutshell - Rubbish draft due to GWS/Gold Coast picks and concessions - Rubbish recruiter in Prendergast - Rubbish coach in Neeld putting pressure on the recruiter to get experienced ready to go types in - Right call on Mitch Clark - We now have pick 3 from that Draft in Dom Tyson From the rest of the draft the players who I'd consider the real standouts are: Coniglio (2), Wingard (6), Ellis (15), Mitchell (21 F/S). There are plenty of other nice prospects - Patton and most of the other GWS boys, Adams, Yeo, Kerridge, Grigg, Brad Hill, Clay Smith, Sheridan, Sutcliff, Neale. Either way we've got Mitch Clark. We've got back in to the draft in getting Tyson who has shown enough to think he can be a top 5 or 10 player from the draft. It wasn't an amazing draft but there was enough there that with either pick 36 (Taggart) or 52 (Tynan) that you would get one guy who's at least shown something and is still on the list. Anyway there's a reason BP isn't still our recruiter and Neeld isn't our coach.

George Stone fine, same with Mathews and Allison. But what about Brad Miller and Greg Stafford both new to coaching. Jade Rawlings playing and coaching career combines for a winning percentage of about 25% I guess. Plus we have a former newsagent coaching our forward line. Dave Misson has been away from Roos at Sydney for years. Not to mention Roos himself has been out of elite coaching for a few years. The Melbourne football department is a failing business just like Qantas. What would your opinion be if Qantas hired a new CEO on record money who despite some promising early signs goes for a holiday in peak management time and schedules himself some TV work. I refuse to put away my skepticism until I see some real and consistent results.

Didn't like the African holiday. 2 weeks missing training and delegating to staff that haven't fully proven themselves. Plus the holiday was all about spending time with his family before the busy season starts. Now he's made the season even busier. Remember he's likely to do the footy show and/or footy classified and on the couch as well at some time during the year. To be honest I'm not sure exactly what AFL coaches do to turn a job that at local level takes about 5 hours a week outside of Saturdays into to 80+ hours a week. The occasional opposition game live, watching game tape, planning sessions and player meetings plus repeat and repeat obviously gets them there then. The reason we signed Roos was to coach. Any media profile was just a benefit. Jackson himself said the focus of the club under Schwab was spread too wide and needed to be dedicated to the football department and to winning games. Plus AFL 360 audience is probably 90+% die hard loyal footy fans, it's not a great program to get new fans I wouldn't think. I would be a lot more comfortable if he did it once a month or even once a fortnight so at least when he came on he was fresh. He's going to say the same thing over and over again if he wisely doesn't want to tread on other clubs or make over the top public statements to our players.