leucopogon

Just to add something else to this thread: reading the comments from Gardner about "the best person to come out of the review and selection process will get the job" makes me think that unless Riley does something miraculous like win 75% of the remaining games he's not really a chance, surely we'll be interviewing better candidates than him?

i agree with that, someone new with fresh ideas and tough, disciplined mentality. Michael Voss seems a good option. Someone with assistant coaching experience at Fremantle and Melbourne (i.e Riley) hardly fills me with confidence going forward.

Hope not (getting in Lyon that is) just because it would be bound to fail I reckon which would be a tragedy because of the high esteem in which the former skipper is held in. The media and coaching are two entirely different animals. Lyon's so entrenched in the former he's not really a chance I wouldn't think. Luckily for Vossy, I reckon he hasn't been out of the game for long enough to become too tainted by the media. I'm all for getting him or Brett Ratten, but am also keen to see what Riley can do although the fact he's already been working with the team is a bit of a concern given our lack of form.

To tell you the truth I can't remember exactly how I came to know about the site. I think it was through an internet search. Because I live in the west we don't get a lot of Demon coverage in the local media so I was forced to find a forum like this to satisfy my cravings for Demon related news/opinions. I'm not one to haunt other teams forums, but it seems like there is some passionate divides between us Demon fans on issues such as the coach and the players (ie. Bruce, Green, Miller, Danners). Are all clubs supporters like us, passionate but divided (in opinion I mean?)

Yeah there certainly are some good candidates out there. I don't think Harvey would suit, just a gut feeling, plus I reckon he'll take over the reigns at Freo next year if they miss the finals. O'Donnell, doesn't strike me as the kind of coach that's going to instill toughness into the side, plus I reckon hes been too long as an assistant and maybe is a bit stale now. I dunno (how many years was R.Lyon an assistant, 10 or something), I'm not convinced about him either though, I reckon Worsfold and Roos are the shining lights of the modern day coach, do 1-3 years as an assistant and then hop right in the deep end. So that leaves Bluey McKenna and Peter Sumich as a couple of other possibilities being touted around. Don't like the idea of either of them just because i hated West Coast and they both were very soft spoken "leaders" which is not what we need. I, like many on this forum, am thinking that we need a coach that demands respect because of the success they've achieved as a coach (ie. winning premierships) or as a recent player in the AFL (ie. Voss, Ratten and to a lesser extent Buckley) if any of that success is going to rub off onto our up and coming talented core of youngsters. I reckon our senior core of players has let the team down big time (with the exception of Neita who is just an out and out shining light) over the past few years with their propensity to allow the team to get on massive losing streaks and form slumps and when they were required turn things around and lead by example when it mattered they couldn't do it. I reckon the general attitude amongst the senior players would preclude the possibility of them responding well to a coach like Voss or Ratten (ie. a recently retired player that many of them would have played against). They just strike me as that kind of group. The youngsters wouldn't have a drama with it, as many on here have said, these are the kind of guys that would have been their heroes growing up and I think they'd respond very well to their message. So, I guess I'm saying if we want to challenge in the next 2 years for a flag we might have to go for a seasoned pro (someone like Sheedy, Malthouse, Pagan) to get a response from the older crew but that's just my gut feeling and is no guarentee that it will work. But if we look more long term then I reckon getting somebody in like Voss, Buckley, Hird, Ratten might be the ticket, to start moulding a young up and coming team that could really go places in perhaps 3-5 season's time. My personal preference is that we avoid both an established successful senior coach (they come at a much dearer price that we probably cant afford) and a long time assistant (like O'Donnel, Longmire, Harvey, etc) and go for a bright up and comer like Voss Buckley or Ratten. I think our senior core is a flaky mess and its too late for any of those guys to change their habits and attitudes in regards to putting in consistent four quarter efforts. I say we cut our losses and invest in the future. I reckon we should get Voss or Ratten as my first or second choice to come in and rebuild us in their image. Like others have said, we can't get much worse than present. As an aside, I reckon it would be fantastic to get Vossy this year when we are likely to have pick 1 or 2 in the draft plus a priority first rounder (more than likely). Not only do we have a big chance at getting Kruezer who is supposed to be the best tall bloke going around for a while (a likely successor to White or Neita) but I'm sure we could do some astute trading of some of those aforementioned flaky seniors to get a swag of low draft picks and/or players that the new coach can assess with an objective eye as being a better fit for our club under his guidance. Players like Yze (well, maybe not due to injury), Bruce, Green, TJ, Ward, Godfrey, Holland are literally playing for their careers for the rest of this year. All our players should shut their gobs to the media about lifting for Daniher and just go about concentrating on this fact that if they don't perform up to scratch and keep playing like they have been under ND, they'll be traded as soon as a new coach comes in. Its certainly an exciting time to be a Dees fan. A good distraction from our woeful on-field antics. P.S. Oh and for god's sake please lets not get Chris Connelly. I live in Perth and we get plenty of him on the tellie and I can tell you he is a woos with a capital W and is very much in the same mould as Daniher. Their characters are remarkably similar, but where Danners is a much more laconical, laid back and likable, Connelly is up tight, cagey and full of cliches. He wouldn't be the right choice for us, if we want to put an end to the kind of yo-yo form we've suffered from during ND's reign.

Thanks for the info Jarka, he sounds like just the ticket as a long term replacement for either one of White or more importantly Neitz. I'd be absolutely stoked to pick him up in the draft.

I'm liking the sounds of this Kruezer boy more as a KP forward than as a ruckman, heaven knows we need a successor for our skipper. Wonder what his kicking is like? Anyone know or is he pretty much a pinch hitter in the forward line and mainly a ruckman?

My prediction: Probably Yze out for Neitz, Petterd out for Miller/Dunn (for disciplinary reasons). I reckon Daniher will make an impassioned plea to the team to lift after that crap that was served up last friday and turn to his disciples to deliver an emphatic message to the footballing world that Melbourne aren't pushovers. We'll probably scrape through for a miraculous victory against all odds and everyone will wake up to the Groundhog day scenario that has been Melbourne's lot during ND's tenure. Up and down, yo-yo, odd-year even-year, get on a roll get on a slump, we all know the drill.

I agree wholeheartedly and I'm sure the sponsors and major stakeholders are telling the board exactly that. I'm sure everyone except the football dept and ND's lovechildren are saying that.

The unfortunate thing about modern footy Clint is that its a business not a sport so consultation about the current state of affairs with the major sponsor of the club is probably the most important thing for us right now because without them or a substitute we'd be stuffed. To add my 2 cents, I think Gardner's a canny enough bloke to know what needs to be done, as much as some of us would like to see Danners sacked now and a replacement brought in, its not going to do the clubs PR any good, nor can we afford to pay him out. I do think that they should send a directive though from the board that we now start to play some of the young fringe members that are our future (read: CJ, Miller, Dunn, Newton, et al). I'm not sure what the answer is. I reckon meandering to week 22 with the kind of teams we've been fielding (ie. Pickett, Godfrey, Ward, Yze, and the likes) is a waste of good development for players like Newton and CJ. If ND has any inkling of trying to keep his job he's going to have to do something very drastic for the remainder of the season like dropping his golden boys to Sandy and making each and every player on the list earn his spot in the best 22. The playing favourites game has gone on too long at this club and has bred such a complacent culture that it just seems so obvious that the answer is to get rid of Danners before he completely wrecks the core of young good players we've got here now (read: Brock, Col, Frawley, Bate, Jones, Bell, etc). I just pray that hasn't already happened. I know this post sounds contradictory and it is. Maybe the board needs to start tying ND's hands, in effect ordering him what to do with the day-to-day coaching of the team, that way perhaps he'll resign due to pride bruising at not being able to run his football dept on his own terms.

Oh you got me Wayne, I am a moron, a moron thats so sick of the inconsistent tripe thats been dished up by the club I've supported since I was a boy. Yeah I was a little rash in my judgement of Davey, we might as well keep him, perhaps he'll be played in the correct position by the next incumbent. As for Pickett, I'll stick by my guns on that call. The guy gets no sympathy from me, he put himself in the predicament he faced just over a month ago. He broke the club rules, he was the one who was at a crossroads. He is also earning probably 8 times what I'm earning for playing for the red & blue. He's let us down big time and he did absolutely nothing last night to warrant his place in the team let alone win back any admiration from me. It takes more than dishing out a few cheap shots off the ball to be a good AFL footballer. His disposal by foot was almost as bad as Godfreys.

Love your optimism, what do you think the odds are that we pick up a hard bodied in and under midfielder with our first pick then?

I was thinking about the state of affairs at our club lying in bed this morning and I don't think we've got the cattle to seriously challenge this year, the next or the year after. I can't be stuffed breaking down the stats of it all but based on gut instinct I reckon we're heading into a dynasty period for West Coast and Hawthorn with perhaps Geelong nipping at their heels. The yo-yo effect of doing well one year and [censored] the next has meant we haven't had a sustained rebuilding period recently like Hawthorn where we've loaded up the list with priority picks. Sure CAC's done well, but in my opinion we haven't drafted enough versatility. Its been mainly in and under types like Jones and McLean. No serious KP gems have emerged and we are now one of the oldest teams going around. As good as McLean, Bate, Jones, Bell, Petterd, Newton, Frawley, Sylvia, etc. are, I don't reckon they are as disciplined or as good as the young lists at West Coast, Hawthorn, Geelong and a host of other clubs. I can't see us ever winning a flag with this core of players. Very depressed about MFC this morning. On the other hand, maybe sweeping out the Football Dept. and bringing in a good coach while this core is still in development might turn things around. Hopefully Danners hasn't softened them beyond all help just yet.

What a disgraceful performance by both coach and players tonight, unbelievably bad really. I've been a firm member of the "Get Rid of Danners" brigade for a long time now and I think our ranks have grown on the back of what we saw out there tonight. Woefully outcoached. However, the players aren't to be excused either. It was bull**** in a chefs salad from nearly the entire team. The biggest observations that I take out of tonight are: No Neitz, no Melbourne. Brock ain't ready to be captain. (PS neither is Bruce). I hope Neitz goes on to play and captain this club for at least two more years after what I saw tonight. Has Robbo ever kept his feet in a one-on-one contest? Imagine how much more damaging he'd be as a forward. Davey is fast rising to the top of my "trade list" alongside Bruce. He has been worked out by opposition teams and is not damaging at all like he was in his first year at the club. Yze is gone, I reckon he's ripe for delisting (whats the story on his contract?). I swear I'll have an aneurism if I see hiim try to soccer or kick the ball from a seated postion or give away a cheap free for diving into someones back because he's nearly always second to the contest. He's not even a shadow of the player he used to be. What a shocking decision by Daniher to bring in Yze and not play Newton in the absence of Neitz. Probably wouldn't have made a difference to the result but what's the point of not blooding our up and comers in this now pointless season from hell. Byron.........do us all a favour and get back on the turps. The only positive thing about tonight: we're back in the hunt for pick number 1 in the draft.

I'll have a go. Why was Bruce played out of the goal square when the guy can't kick for goal to save himself? Why wasn't Leon Davis tagged heavily at stop plays in their attacking 50? Just two observations. I hate it when Danners goes and gets us all believing again. This has happened too many times. I think the bloke is one of the nicer coaches going around, probably the nicest one, which is one of his biggest flaws (as a coach, not as a person). As a team, we're too nice and have been throughout his tenure at the helm. The fact that we can get on big winning streaks is more an indication of the talent we have on our list than any masterful coaching by The Rev. The fact that they can't do it week in week out probably has a lot to do with the coach not being able to get the team to play consistently good football. We've probably seen a solid 4 quarter effort from the Demons once or twice a season for the past 10. That's not good enough unfortunately. I think he needs to go at the end of this season.

How much better did we look with Wheatley taking the kick-ins today instead of Trav? It was like I was watching a different team today the way we brought it in after behinds.

No, there's plenty of clues out there, actually downright solid evidence that Bruce's kicking is [censored]. That's undeniable. That shot he missed on the run in the first quarter was woeful. The other misses weren't really surprising, so far has my confidence in Bruce as a set shot for goal sunk. As another poster said, the most annoying thing about all this is that he used to be a deadly accurate kick for goal and around the ground in the earlier part of his career. As far as having a big engine goes, not denying that, but why was he played out of the goal square for almost an entire half of football. I will reiterate, Danners coaching baffles me at times. As I've stated before, I wouldn't miss Bruce if he was traded but while he's a Demon, best of luck to him and I hope his kicking improves.

I think Bell was on Didak most of the day and did pretty well on him to. Don't know who was on Thomas. I don't want to sound pedantic, but to the guy who said we need to play Frawley the rest of the season so he's primed for next year, by the same logic do you believe we should play Newton as well? I think its grossly unfair on Newton that Frawley can get a run in the team when he clearly isn't ready and Newton has been in good form at Sandy and done plenty of development. Danners baffles me at times.

That he did....awesome job but lucky not to give away about 4 frees.

Very good win although it was disappointing we didn't give them an absolute hiding after that dominant 1st term. Couple of observations - Ward - his disposal is crap and I think its a travesty that he gets a game in front of CJ. To his credit though, in the 2nd half he played some good man-on-man footy and didn't turn it over quite so much Frawley - doesn't offer the team really aything at all at this stage and should be developed at Sandy. He's not up to AFL standard by a long shot. Lost count of the number of times he was run down from behind. He appears slow both in pace and his decision making. Bruce - Where do I start, the guy is a Flake of the highest order and despite his BOG antics of last week, turns in such a shocking effort today that it boggles the mind. If this guy is made captain in front of McLean I'll be livid. McLean - a gun pure and simple and so important to the team. Jones - a future superstar McDonald - the cosumate pro, very valuable to the team. Robbo - a star and a showman Petterd - doesn't have enough penetration in his kicking yet, but looks the goods at AFL level (unlike Frawley at this stage) Davey - becoming a close runner-up to Bruce in flakiness. Had a down day. PJ - good luck trying to win your spot back in the team Jamar. and finally Wheatley - more of that for the rest of your career please. Played fantastically. A great win. I reckon we've got a chance at winning the next 2 at least and setting up for a tilt at 8th spot by season's end.

Yeah I sure felt like suing him when he played on in the goal square and was pinged holding the ball!!!

Okay, the weight of evidence being put forth about Cam Bruce's ability is swaying me back yes he's good but to say he's an elite is totally an overstatement. The fact that he's probably in our top 2 or 3 players at the club is somewhat of an indictment on our list I reckon. Re: Brad Green, I rate him as one of our best footballers, if only they'd play him in the correct position each week, a lead up forward pocket, he'd bag 40-50 goals a season no worries. ND has tried to change his whole game around and I think its been to the detriment of him as a player. Reminds me of the old adage, jack of all trades master of none. What we are really glaringly lacking at the moment on our list is: a) skillful outside midfielders that can hit targets going into forward 50 (TJ's probably the only one who does it on a somewhat regualr basis, Yze used to be this to a tee but now he's inside 50 and is becoming more and more of a liability, Bruce can do it but his disposal is erratic, our new brigade are still learning their craft but none of Brock, Moloney, Jones or Bartram seem super accurate or confident with their passing to leading forwards hopefully they will improve). We've concentrated our drafting in recent years on in-and-under type players and now we've got plenty of those, but the pacy skillful player stocks are drying up at the club now, this should be a priority at the trading table. B) a giant tap ruckman that has endurance and round the ground impact - White is passed his best and has been crocked by the new centre bounce rules. He doesn't do enough around the ground. We need to get a new ruckman urgently to step in and take more of the burden off White c) a proper full back - Maybe Frawley will be the man, but he seems a little undersized, similar to what we already have in Carrol, Bizzel, Ferguson and Rivers etc. At the moment Holland is able to play on gorilla forwards like Gehrig and Richo but he won't be around much longer, so its crucial that we get someone that can take the big FF's otherwise we'll likely concede big scores every time we have a monster playing against us. Perhaps Miller needs to be groomed as this player, God knows he hasn't been a very effective CHF. d) a replacement for Neitz - Robbo will do the job in the short term but he is also nearing his twilight years and is a little small to take on big defenders. Miller in my eyes isn't the answer his decision making and kicking is shite. I always thought Brad Green would make a good FF with his deadly left boot and good marking on the lead, but he is also a bit small to be a true FF. Newton maybe but will we ever get to see?

Here we go again. Re: Cam Bruce, plain and simple I reckon he's prone to moments of softness and occasionally shirks the hard contests. Look at that no-look handball he dished off to an opponent in the first term when he was about to get a tackle layed on him on the wing. Also his disposal seems to be getting worse with each game and yet still everyone here lauds him as the messiah. I can't see it. I admit he's a serviceable player and probably has good trade value, so I say lets cash in and try to bring in a better player to the club. You need to sacrifice quality to get quality and Cam Bruce has flattered to deceive for far too long in the Red & Blue for my liking. As for those touting him as the next skipper, God help us if that happens. He's not leadership material.

Thank the Lord, Jaded, you just articulated everything I was trying to say on the other thread about Bruce.

What does it all matter about team cohesion and all that? Fact is, at the end of this year, we'll have a new coach and everyone's going to be playing for their spot on the list. I think we're long overdue for a serious shake up. ND I admire your work but your time is up.