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Given what we could potentially be offering up to get him and the $ he will be on why shouldn't he be put under the microscope? I'm all for improving our list and obviously we don't need the best players to do this but there is still such a thing as over rating a player (at least in context of a potential trade). I don't think I have seen anyone argue that he isn't an improvement on PJ. He's actually after more time in the seniors let alone the ruck and his "forward pro-ess" hasn't been good enough to ensure that in a year where he had the perfect platform to produce. That was then this is now. If he was in '08 form he wouldn't be on the table. 1 or 2 goals has been my point, a stock ruckman can deliver that. No arguement with the experience factor. For sure, but this applies to any player we acquire in theory, attributes come first. Ultimately if we take on Hale I won't automatically condemn the decision as he would add incremental improvement to our list. If we overpay (which IMO is on the cards) then I'll be severely disappointed though as it isn't necessary for what he brings.

In that case Hale should be a better forward option to facilitate this. Jamar won't be an AA ruck for ever. IMO he is just as good if not a better forward option than what Hale would be and I said use him "more" up forward not predominantly up forward (ie a forward who rucks). If we obtained a stock ruckman with even the remote amount of ability I can't see why they couldn't return us at least a goal and a half per game ala Hale this year. A 50/50 rotation with Jamar could be ideal, would reduce injury risk significantly and perhaps keep him fresher longer over his career. Ironically the setup at North with McIntosh and Goldstein seems to be in the direction of a 50/50 setup. Hang on, what happned to the doesn't have to be a world beater mentality? In the case of Hale it is ok if he plays a role (ie a goal and a half per game) but if we acquire a ruckman they have to be better than Jamar all of a sudden? Lets keep it simple. What I'm proposing is that I haven't seen Hale produce anything up forward this year that suggests he is a better forward option than a stock ruckman in a rotation (before you mention PJ he isn't even a stock ruckman). People just can't get it in their heads that he was tried at North for this exact role and was not up to it. At least with a stock ruckman they can ruck. People use the arguement what if Jamar gets injured (which is a valid concern) I can tell you Hale won't save us but a more competent stock ruckman may. This is the thing, if we pay over the odds then that is aruguably not the best outcome. Sadly best does not always equate to adequate. As we have previously agreed price will be the issue here both in what we trade and the salary of the said player.

Ok, that sounds reasonable rpfc. I agree with the "role player" description of what we need and I think it is a sound move to try and acquire someone experienced to help Jamar (who can also go forward). Firstly wrt decent ruckwork if you look at Hales numbers over the last couple of years he is hardly any better than PJ. On paper he should be though. A lot of North supporters regard him as a forward who rucks rather than a ruckman who can go forward and I think his ordinary hitout numbers reflect that mentality. Arguably in his prime and over taken by a 22 yr old. Secondly wrt being played as a forward. Bash and crash is great, a contest is great but the reality is that this was simply not enough for North this year in a year when Lindsay Thomas was their highest goal scorer and Drew Petrie played just 2 games due to injury - Hale should have shone out in these circumstances yet he averaged a goal and a half per game. The exact rationale we are applying was the exact same process North actually put Hale through and yet they want to offload him. The "role" he played at North was substandard. Unless we have set the bar very low then why will he perform any better at Melbourne? The contest aspect of his play up forward (which is a crucial component to many arguements I have read so far) is one dimensional. Unless he takes a grab he'll be out of the contest. Hale is a 201cm Michael Newton. IMO we should target a stock ruckman (not a world beater) and actually get a package that can deliver in 1 area rather than be a hack of all trades and use Jamar more up forward. Even a stock ruckman with a remote amount of talent will deliver just as many goals as Hale (who's main advantage on PJ is height) if given the chance. As I said earlier, if it was between PJ and Hale then Hale is the better option but that doesn't say much. It is important that we get a reasonable commodity if we trade our 2nd pick (or equivalent player). Now that you have come around to the spud factor how many spud ruckmen are acquired potentially for a 2nd round pick in a strong draft and also on $400k per yr? We can do better than this.

What would be the minimum return to justify Hale in our best 22?

Yep, the cap's a winner. That emblem is going to sell a heck load of gear. Everything from pewter mugs to beach towels will look awesome. I still hold out hopes that the actual emblem itself will be available to buy as a coat of arms to hang up on the wall - I'm talking good quality.

Adelaide definitely have long term plans for Davis but he didn't feature in their estimations this year as best 22. They'll groom him over the next couple of years and I doubt they would consider Warnock. Carlton IMO are still a likely option but I reckon if they've learnt anything from last year it is to not go too hard too soon.

No point getting upset I suppose although it is disapointing given he was looking at staying on. Gave us good service, time for us to move on. Just a pie in the sky thought atm but sometimes you have to sew the seeds early. Jimmy should get in the ear of Tadhg Kennelly about coming to MFC after he retires (he turns 30 next year). Could be a good defensive coach for us down the track and would obviously emphasise our profile. Oh the shenanigans...

hmmm, I guess if there is any truth to this then I'll have to wait until I see it but it does sound a little American to me. I'm curious none the less.

As it stands it is pick 32 but more importantly it is our 2nd pick so the next pick we have in the ND (notwithstanding other trades) would be hit and miss (probably miss) not to mention the fact that we may not even have room to use it - big factor here. Personally I like your 2nd option. If we trade our 2nd pick we are looking at bringing in just 1 likely future prospect at a time when we still have a fair few question marks and this years draft is apparently not too bad for depth which is probably significant to perhaps the 30's at least (guessing a little here I admit). Yep, for sure.

Is our 2nd pick the right price?

You should trust your initial instinct on this one. In my view, PJ's standard of rucking, marking and general aerial ability is so shocking that some of us have been spooked into the idea of taking on any old replacement. I get the feeling that the club's mindset is that incremental improvement (which is what Hale is at best) is good enough and personally I fear that our 2nd pick is on the table here. The poster you quoted states that Hale only played ruck as a 21/22 yr old (and for some reason had to mention twice that he was still developing). That should ring alarm bells because at 26 (if the cliche stands) Hale should be coming into it as ruckmen apparently take time yet he's been over taken by a 22 yr old (who by the poster's logic is still developing). Hale is slow, an ordinary tap ruckman for his height, extra weight doesn't seem to be a biproduct of extra strength and I see other comments about his ability that are none too complimentary regarding defensive pressure and agility. He's had quite some time to prove and improve on his rucking ability and as you put it so eloquently earlier he is a spud. If we had both Hale and PJ on our list yes I would play Hale before PJ but there isn't much in it and what Hale may offer up forward (which IMO isn't that much) PJ at least makes up for in run and chase - both are spuds at the stopages or in the packs so if we give away our 2nd pick for him then North have done very well.

I agree, it is almost inevitable that we will come to such a point regardless of list management but that is life I suppose. We are definitely going to have to get creative down the track. I'm thinking Jack Watts as environmental ambassador for Hankook not enough tyres are recycled in this country. This is the latest article I could find from a half-assed search. The cap as well as ASA amounts go up next year but after that it is in limbo by the looks. Free agency and the format of player contracts (if they change) will put a spin on things too. Either way I think TH's strategy isn't too susceptible to cap changes on its own it is just a matter of how liberal they can be down the track.

I agree, in real terms there probably hasn't been a significant increase in TPP over previous years. I still think we are poised for that to increase though despite the delistings and retirements and I get the feeling that this expectation is a driving force behind TH's strategy.

With front loading we paid 100% this year I believe. Going by TH's WW presentation we shouldn't have any trouble keeping above the salary floor until about 2012/13 when the club plans to use that saved cap space for taking in some experienced players at a flag tilt. They seem to have a projection of how they want our cap to behave. You know more about this than I do but surely our list managers have a grasp of things without having to overpay experienced players simply to avoid the pitfall of over playing younger players down the track. It seems by the "apparent" negotiations that the club doesn't want to fork out too much for Bruce and tbh I think this is a better signal to send to the group if we actually want to avoid over paying players down the track.

Can't see Baker playing but geez it would make things interesting.

Yeah, wondered about that too.

That's an interesting one. You'd think they'd have to jettison some players in order to make space.

Pass

Yep. The term "stay at home forward" cops a bit of criticism in the modern footy vernacular but that is exactly what we need. Doesn't need to be an out and out champion either, just a competent forward who has the required strength and agility to give our ball carrieris confidence in kicking to a 1 on 1 (if required) and compliment our mobile forwards. If it wasn't already the case, I think it is curtains for Newton given he mentioned the rucking side of things. I'd be surprised if they gave up a first rounder but a player and a 2nd could be on the radar.

On ustream Schwabby mentioned that they are looking at elevating him to the senior list. He said that they definitely aren't delisting him (which I think only gives them 1 option anyway as he can't stay on the RL I don't think.

Jurrah's best position for both him and the team is up forward. The beauty of Jurrah is that he can have purple patches and I'm hoping that for a very long time he'll be giving opposition coaches headaches. We want a situation where opposition coaches are spending time chopping and changing defenders in their match ups throughout the game as this may not only bring our other forwards into the game (if they've been quiet) but it distracts the opposition coach from other things.

Knights would be a massive pick up for any team. Has a nice blend of class and power. 70m player.

In theory.

As it stands our 2nd pick is pick 32. Under a non-compromised draft that is still a 2nd round pick. I understand your point that picks have been pushed down the order but we need to keep perspective of what a 2nd rounder actually constitutes. We've had it good over the years with early picks but this is the reality that teams at the other end of the ladder have had to deal with - a 2nd rounder in the 30's.

Smart footballer just starting to find his way in the game. Given the pressure our kids have been under and a rigorous gameplan you can forgive any single player for not "starring". I think once the intricacies of our gameplan start to flourish from the regemented level we have displayed this year he will become more prominent. One of many players who will benefit from another preseason and improved facilities. I actually prefer him midfield to forward due to his composure.