Nasher

Love that he’s got the recognition. Great little bit of development by the club I reckon - this is his third season on the list, but he just simmers away in the background until he’s ready, and makes an immediate impact when he forces his way in. Really enjoyed his year so far and looking forward to seeing how far he can take it.

I don't think so. In both games I think Max comprehensively out-tapped his opponent. Plenty of the taps seemed to go where they were directed by Max, they just went to a contested ball which we lost, or to a space that suited the Sydney mids (particularly Parker). Hickey's getting a lot of credit for his game, but I can't see anything to suggest he's actually any good as a ruckman. Maybe it's an unfair comparison against the best one in the game though.

I don't even have an excuse! Just my curious nature and an obsessive need to satisfy my curiosity once I latch on to it. I would have dwelled on it all day if I didn't have a look.

The hard part about this is that your centre-square setup is at least in part determined by what your opponent does. For example at one point we lined up with Petracca at 2 o'clock, Jordon at 6 o'clock and Oliver at 9 o'clock, which was a unique setup that I only saw once. Each player was manned up by the opposing player. So who decides who's going to stand where - is it the Melbourne players, or the Sydney players? Neither midfield combination seemed prepared to say "you do you your thing and we'll do ours, let's see who wins"; nor did that happen in any other of the games I watched.

Let's acknowledge that we're supporters and that we don't need to concentrate on anything, and are free to dream and speculate as much as we like, because nothing we say or do affects the fortunes of the team.

I love the way Lever behaves in the face of frustration - you could tell that decision tested him to the max. A bounce on the spot and a vigorous grimace, watch the replay, then back on with it. Never argues with the umpire - recognises that it's a completely fruitless practice and a waste of energy. I hated that free kick, but was over it by the time an identical one was paid at the other end for Pickett a bit later. At least they were consistent.

Having had a look at a game where we sucked in the centre, I decided to have a look at a game where we were competitive in the centre clearances and see what looked different. I picked the Geelong game - it was a game where all our mids had very high clearance numbers. One thing that was obviously different was how far away the midfielders were from the circle, at every bounce. There was only ever one, or sometimes none in close. Whenever Max tapped, it was always to the space in which our midfielder would fill. The mids always knew exactly where the tap was going to go, so the right player was charging in at pace, the other two were preparing to either spread or defend, depending on which way that contest went. It was random who the nominal receiver was, but Oliver and Viney in particular got themselves in to the right spot, in space, to receive the tap heaps of times. I barely saw this happen against Sydney. I reject the assertion that Max's taps are too predictable. When we set up well, one of the three mids will be anointed to receive the tap. It could be any of the three. Or the plan could be to punch it to space. How could the opposing midfield possibly know in advance? They have a one in four chance of guessing correctly. In the Sydney game our mids lined up very close to the circle at nearly every bounce. I'm now convinced Sydney forced that. Whenever Max tapped, it was always to a pair in a flat footed contest, or to space, but there was no player there to run on other than bloody Parker, who had a field day. I watched thinking it might be the Viney factor. Having now watched two games worth of centre bounces, I don't think Viney is particularly any better than Oliver or even Harmes for winning contested ball in this scenario. His point of difference is that he tackles like a warrior. If his opponent gets a clearance, you can be sure that he has earned it at maximum price. We're definitely better for having him in there, but we've still got enough inside firepower that we should be able to get by without him without getting smashed in there like we did on Saturday.

Try following the context of the conversation.

This thread was started in 2015.

Copy cat! Seems we had the same idea (see page 3). Nice work though mate. Really interesting read, especially having been through the exercise myself, to see where we might have drawn different conclusions, but there wasn’t much difference. I did mine in the morning. In the afternoon I watched bits of the Carlton and Bulldogs game, and the Brisbane and Freo game, and found myself wishing the players would hurry up and kick a goal so I could observe how they set up at the bounce. One thing I noticed the Blues/Dogs mids do that I never saw in our game, was for both sides to have two wing side mids and a defensive side one, ie both clubs having one man each unopposed, going head to head. We were man-on-man at EVERY ball-up - not sure if it was us who forced that or Sydney. It will be easy to tell with watching more centre bounces. I’d never analysed a clearance in my life before, but I don’t reckon I’ll ever stop doing it with every one now.

You might be right, but I’ve held my understanding for a lot of years, based on Sam Newman giving a demonstration on it of The Footy Show in the early years of it. His example was almost exactly the one you said - you could run back and forth over the same 5 metre patch of turf and never need a bounce. In hindsight it’s probably a rich assumption to assume Sam knew what he was talking about, but I was only young at the time ? Probably a moot point as I still think Harmes was clear in both cases. He definitely didn’t run 40 like someone asserted

I watch most games on TV and would appreciate not being lumped in with numpties with obvious biases.

I'm with you. Here's where he collected the ball to where he disposed of it. The fact that he took an arc to get there is irrelevant - so long as he is never more than 15 metres from where he started. To put it in perspective, if he'd kicked it to Jackson, who is the same distance away as collection point, absolutely no doubt it would have been called PLAY ON, NOT 15, so getting called too far is ridiculous.

I've heard a few people say we've lacked a defensive sweeper - where would the defensive sweeper line up? I'm assuming you mean a player lining up at about half way towards the back of the square, but I'm not sure how you do that with 666. We had a player defensive side of the contest on all but one centre square bounce and they weren't getting drawn in to the contest, but they watched the ball sail over their heads a lot. On Jackson - I think it's less that he's unpredictable with his taps, and more that he just doesn't win the tap. The only tap he won from the centre square went to himself. The rest of his impact in the centre square is because of his ground level work, which is exceptional, and better than Max, but he's got a way to go in terms of hitouts. It became clear to me why he isn't spending larger amounts of time in the ruck.

Ridiculous isn't it? It would literally take 15 minutes for someone to whack together a matrix of what colours the umpires should wear in each combination of teams to avoid clashes. Or they could always just wear that green uniform they have, seeing as there aren't any clubs with a green uniform. This seems like the easiest problem ever to solve.

One thing I'd love to have a better handle on is who determines how the midfield sets up - I saw several different setups, but the midfielders always lined up 1-on-1 against each other - so which players are leading and which players are following? Whatever the case may be, Parker was nearly always able to find space, no matter where the gap was in the initial setup. Of the 6 core midfielders (Parker/Kennedy/Mills vs Oliver/Petracca/Harmes), he was by far the most damaging in the centre clearances because he was always able to get clear.

AFL commentary is just jobs for the boys. Luke Darcy is a great example. He has a voice like fingernails on a chalkboard and he doesn’t know the players’ names. There had to be thousands of better candidates out there. Two professional callers who sound good and know the players’ names, with one ex-footballer or coach for special comments that are insightful (aka, not Ling or Dal Santo) would be great. But nah, let’s just fill the box with dribbling morons instead. And Hamish McLaughlin might not be an ex-footballer but I definitely include him in the latter category.

So I've just wasted 2 hours of my life making notes on all the centre bounces and comparing the setups. I've never done this before so I dunno how useful it is. 1 (Swans clearance). Gawn, Oliver (far wing side), Petracca (offensive side), Pickett (defensive side) Kennedy sprints in to the centre from the wing side and leaves Oliver to eat his dust. The tap is neutral - both ruckman get a piece of it. Kennedy blocks Oliver out of the contest initially. Mills and Oliver compete with the ball; ball falls to Kennedy; Mills blocks Oliver and Kennedy boots it away unopposed. No impact on the contest from Petracca or Gawn. Pickett is standing defensive side ready to block the escape, but the ball gets kicked over his head. Goal results from this clearance. Eventual goal: Swans 2 (Swans clearance). Gawn, Oliver (far wing side), Petracca (defensive side), Jordon (offensive side) Oliver continues to be professionally blocked by Kennedy. Jordon receives what I would call an illegal hold by Warner - no whistle, play on. Hickey jumps, Gawn stays on the ground and wins the tap, hitting it towards the wing side. Balls go to space, both ruckman scramble after it. Gawn wins, handballs it to nobody. Jordon wins it back, handball to Gawn, handball to Oliver, who gets immediately tackled. Handballs it to nobody again. Hickey picks up the loose ball and boots it out of there. Eventual goal: Swans 3 (Swans clearance). Gawn, Oliver (far wing side), Petracca (defensive side), Harmes (offensive side) Kennedy not present in this contest. Gawn wins a tap forward. Harmes chases after the ball and gets friendly fire from Alex Neal-Bullen who slides for the ball and takes Harmes legs out. Both MFC players eat dirt while the Swans half-backs pick up the ball unopposed and clear it. This one should have been ours but for a MFC player error. Eventual goal: Demons 4 (Swans clearance). Gawn, Oliver (far wing side), Harmes (defensive side), Petracca (offensive side) Oliver blocked out of the contest by Mills initially. Gawn again stays down while Hickey jumps. Hickey misses it, Gawn taps down to space and chases it himself. Swans players are all ahead of their MFC opponents. Mills stops blocking Oliver at the last minute and chases the ball, gets there well before Oliver does. Handballs to space to Parker (Petracca's man - seemed to get caught ball watching) who wins the clearing kick. Eventual goal: Demons 5 (Swans clearance). Jackson, Jordon (near wing side), Neal-Bullen (defensive side), Petracca (offensive side) Vastly different setup this time - Petracca as the offensive midfielder starts a lot further away from the contest (he is initially out of frame) and Jordon is starting on the opposite side to where Oliver had been. Bounce favours opposing ruckman (Sinclair) who taps down to Kennedy (Jordon's man). Jordon immediately lays a tackle but it's ineffective; Kennedy handballs out to Parker (Petracca's man) who has bolts out with a clearing kick. Eventual goal: Demons 6 (Demons clearance). Gawn, Jordon (far side wing), Neal-Bullen (defensive side), Oliver (offensive side) Similar setup to previously but Jordon has changed sides. Gawn taps to the advantage of Oliver who hits the contest at speed, handball to Neal-Bullen who gets the clearing kick. Eventual goal: Swans 7 (Swans clearance). Gawn, Petracca (far side wing), Harmes (defensive side), Oliver (offensive side) Gawn wins the tap decisively and appears to be attempting to replicate the previous tap to space, but Oliver doesn't get there this time and the ball is gathered by some Swans mullet on the wing, who was opposing Langdon. Handball goes backwards to Warner who gets tackled, but handballs out to Cunningham who clears it through half back. No eventuating goal; quarter time. 8. (Swans clearance) Gawn, Petracca (near side wing), Pickett (defensive side), Oliver (offensive side) Terrible bounce; ruckman end up competing on the circle on our defensive side. Hickey jumps; Gawn doesn't (again), Hickey ends up jumping over Max and Max falls on his arse. Still manages to affect the tap, which falls to the ground. Kennedy is blocking Oliver out of the contest and Mills is blocking Petracca; Warner (Pickett's man) gathers the ball unopposed. Pickett attempts to smother but is ineffective. Eventual goal: Demons 9 (Swans clearance). Gawn, Jordon (near side wing), Petracca (offensive side), Harmes (defensive side) Gawn wins the tap and taps it to space on the offensive side. No MFC players in the vicinity, Mills pushes off Jordon and gets there first. Petracca was running in the wrong direction to receive this tap and Jordon was comprehensively outbodied by Mills. Eventual goal: Demons 10 (Demons clearance). Jackson, Harmes (near side wing), Oliver (offensive side), Melksham (defensive side) Hickey wins the tap but it goes to Harmes who beats a hold and and breaks a tackle, to run away with the ball and clear it. Unfortunately gets pinged for running too far before the kick. Unlucky because I thought he did everything right here. No eventuating goal; half time. 11 (Swans clearance). Gawn, Oliver (near side wing), Petracca (far side wing), Pickett (defensive side) Obviously different setup here with no offensive side player, and all three mids very close by. Oliver and Petracca are both standing basically at the circle, Pickett only a couple of metres away. Gawn wins the tap and... taps to to the offensive side where there are no Melbourne players (or any players). Parker (on Oliver) is first to the ball, again, and handballs to Mills who clears. Eventual goal: Swans 12 (Demons clearance). Gawn, Oliver (near side wing), Harmes [I think] (far side wing), Petracca (defensive side) Same setup as before but different personnel. Telecast is still showing the replay of the goal as the bounce takes place so it's hard to see (onya channel 7). I think it's Harmes on the far side wing, but whoever it is has gone by the time they switch back to the play. It appears Gawn wins the tap. Oliver receives and tries a hurried kick but it's smothered and goes straight up in the air. Petracca gathers and boots it out (down the throat of Sydney's half back). Eventual goal: Demons 13 (Demons clearance). Jackson, Jordon (near side wing), Petracca (far side wing), Oliver (defensive side) Slightly different setup again. Players are all very close to the contest still but Petracca is at about 2 o'clock (on offensive side) on the circle instead of at 12 o'clock. I reckon if we'd lined up like this in #11 we would have won a clearance instead of Gawn tapping to nobody. Ball is thrown up instead of bounced, Hickey grabs it. It's a scrap with all players in close. Kennedy initially wins the ball, but Jordon is able to lay an effective enough tackle to draw a dud disposal. Petracca wins the ball, we handball it out. All the mids from this contest touch the ball on the way out, including Jackson. Jordon is the final recipient who delivers inside 50 from half forward, but unfortunately the kick is poor. This was the first clean clearance of the game to us though. Eventual goal: Demons 14 (Demons clearance). Jackson, Harmes (near side wing), Petracca (far side wing), Oliver (defensive side) Different setup again, with all the players very close to the contest still, but the wing-side mids now both on the offensive side of the circle - Petracca at 2 o'clock, Harmes at 5 o'clock. Jackson taps to himself and runs the ball out, and wins the clearing kick. Eventual goal: Demons 15 (Swans clearance). Gawn, Oliver (near side wing), Harmes (offensive side), Melksham (defensive side) Back to the earlier setup with the offensive player a fair way out of the contest. Oliver as the wing side mid is more defensive side (about 7 o'clock). Defensive side player has been in the same position every bounce. Gawn wins the tap and hits it to the advantage of Harmes, who runs in to the space and collects. He is tackled instantly by Hickey and the ball spills. Kennedy gathers, fumbles and taps it forward towards Florent who soccers it clear. Eventual goal: Swans 16 (Swans clearance). Gawn, Oliver (near side wing), Jordon (far side wing), Petracca (defensive side) No offensive side player again, players all very close to the contest, Oliver at 7 o'clock, Jordon at 12 o'clock. Tap goes towards Florent and Jordon, who gets the quick handball away to Parker who has peeled off Oliver and is running in to the space where there is no Melbourne player to be seen, and gets a long clearing kick to half forward. Eventual goal: Swans 17 (Swans clearance). Gawn, Melksham (far side wing - 12 o'clock), Petracca (offensive side), Oliver (defensive side) Scrap contest, with most of the players ending up on top of each other. Ball spills out and is collected by Mills. Petracca attempts to interfere but is off balance and ends up spinning away from the contest. Clearing handball goes offensive side towards Parker, who had broken away from the pack and was meters in the clear. No eventuating goal, three quarter time. 18 (Swans clearance). Gawn, Harmes (near side wing), Petracca (offensive side), Oliver (defensive side) No clear winner of the tap, ball goes to the defensive side where Oliver appears to be about to gather, but the ball bounces away and the ball is collected by Hickey, who handballs it to the charging Rowbottom who delivers inside 50. Eventual goal: Swans 19 (Swans clearance). Gawn, Oliver (near side wing), Petracca (offensive side), Harmes (defensive side) Gawn wins the tap, taps towards Petracca who has moved in ahead of his opponent, but the tap is too rich and goes over his and his opponents head. Contest falls Parker and Oliver; Parker clears the ball by kicking it out of the air while wresting Oliver. Can clearly see what we were trying to do here and there was a massive touch of luck in this clearance from Sydney. Eventual goal: Demons 20 (no clearance). Jackson, Petracca (near side wing), Oliver (offensive side), Harmes (defensive side) Seem to be settling back in to the earlier setups again now. Jackson wins the tap, and there's a ground level contest between Petracca and Rowbottom. They both overrun, Harmes and Jackson go for the same ball. A scrap ensues with no clearance and there's another ballup. Eventual goal: Swans 21 (Swans clearance). Gawn, Petracca (near side wing), Harmes (offensive side) Oliver (defensive side/wing - 2 o'clock) First contest where we didn't have a player directly on the defensive side of the circle. Gawn tap goes backwards in the direction of Petracca (basically stationary, still wrestling with Mills) and Oliver (been pushed out of it by Parker) - ball goes right in between the two of them and Parker hits it at pace and runs out. Eventual goal: Demons 22 (Swans clearance). Jackson, Harmes (near side wing), Oliver (offensive side), Jordon (defensive side) Hickey wins the tap, grabs the ball himself and boots it clear. No midfielders touch the ball. No eventuating goal, game ends. Thoughts: I'm definitely no analyst - this is the first time in my life I've ever attempted to scrutinise our setups like this and often I found I had no idea what I was looking at really. But my general notes are: - 3 of our 4 clearances came when Jackson was rucking - but none of them came from good taps, they were all because he involved himself in the midfielder's contest. Gawn does this too, but not as effecively. - They sharked our taps from Gawn. This was a clear strategy. - Sydney's mature midfield combo of Kennedy, Mills and Parker is brilliant. They pantsed our starting midfielders of Petracca, Oliver and Harmes/Jordon. They block for each other too - more than once I would see the player who has just dished the ball off immediately lay a block. I didn't see the Melbourne mids do this once. - While they won a lot of clearances, very few of them resulted in goals. There were a lot of junk kicks out to the wing or kicks to half-forward where they were outnumbered. Overall despite the fact that they comprehensively beat us out of the middle, we still made it hard for them to score. - There was only one drawn contest in the middle. I'm not sure how that compares to normal but I expected more in such a fiercely contested game. I'd love to sit down and do this for a game where Viney plays and see how it differs. I feel like I'll have a better idea of what I'm seeing and how it differs if I have more of a point of reference.

The time commitment for the podcast is a couple of hours a week at most. It’s entertaining and it’s time donated to the supporters. There are a lot of hours in a week, there’s plenty of time for him to do the cast and not neglect his professional responsibilities. Ridiculous thing to pot him for.

Total marks: Melksham: 3 Fritsch: 2 Goals from marks: Melksham: 1 Fritsch: 0 It’s obviously not true that Melksham doesn’t fly for marks. It’s rubbish. The mark he took for a goal was sandwiched in between two players and perfectly judged - taken at the highest point. He very nearly took a speccy where the kick completely favoured his opponent but dropped the slippery ball when he hit the ground. You had decided Melksham sucked before the ball had even been bounced so everything you saw automatically confirmed it. There’s no point in reading anything else from you on this topic.

I already mentioned this in the votes thread, but a most dishonorable mention to Luke Darcy for referring to James Jordon as Jordon Jones several times on the telecast. Sharpen up or get out of the way of the many thousands of footy fans who'd love to be on the money you're on, who actually know the players names. Muppet.

I'm going (have gone) on record to say I'm sticking fat with Harrison Petty, irrespective of Tom McDonald being an awesome forward again. He's young and inexperienced key defender, but given the chance to settle and develop cohesion with May and Lever, he WILL deliver.

Happy to concede that to them - Swans were tough. Didn't concede the main stat that matters though.

6. Oliver 5. McDonald 4. May 3. Harmes 2. Jordon 1. Salem Negative infinity points to Luke Darcy who several times referred to James Jordon as Jordon Jones in the broadcast. I honestly weep for the state of our great game's commentary.

Second. https://afltables.com/afl/stats/games/2019/111620190411.html