furious d

History shows you need a quality midfield to win a flag. All those forwards you mention were serviced by a quality midfield. We have Watts and I think we need to find a servicable KPF who can play a role rather than a superstar. If 2 of Scully, Trengove, Morton, Grimes or Blease can become elite mids we will be very competitive for the next 10-12 years. Despite what people think elite mids don't grow on trees. We haven't had one for 20+ years. Trengove is my second chioce atm because he is a goalkicker and we desperately need to find more goals from our mids.

The way I see it WE hold all the aces. I don't think we NEED Burgoyne, but if we can get him for nothing he'd be some nice icing on our rebuilt cake. If we are his prefered option, we have to try and trade. I can't remember the details but I'm sure the league forced Carlton into mediation when they tried to rip WC off and made them give up more than they wanted to. I don't want to pay any more than PSD pick 1 for SB so let him nominate tha hawks or dons and wait and see if a deal can be done, if not we swoop. As far as his salary goes, I couldn't give a toss if he nominated 2mill a year, he won't get it. We are the fall back option and that's how we should play it. Offer $500K a year and let the other teams fight it out to be prefered option. Then if the trade falls through we give him a revised final offer up to the max the club is prepared to pay and make it clear if he asks for more we won't draft him. He'd be risking a fair bit if he priced himself out of the market. If SB comes to the dee's he comes on our terms, if not I won't lose any sleep over it. He's a good player not a star and like our list under ND he's a front runner who'll go missing when things aren't going well. I'd rate him on a par with Yze and would be disappointed if we paid too much for him. If there was a quality KPF or ruckman 25 or younger up for grabs it would be worth going hard, but an outside reciever, no thanks.

When I was a little kid dad had me and my brothers all decked out in Carlton jumpers. Mum decided to win one back for the Dees so she targeted me being the youngest. Melbourne played a pre season praccie match at our local club's ground at the time, mid 70's, as we were in their zone. She bought a Melbourne towel and got Robbie Flower to give it to me before the game. Worked a treat, I've been hooked ever since.

I haven't accused him Redleg but I will as he is clearly all those things First "eye gouger", Campbell Brown admitted it happened and that he lied to get Judd off. GUILTY "pressure point manipulator", Judds own admission. GUILTY "liar", he's human isn't he? GUILTY "mercenary" he plays for carlton. GUILTY "participant in salary cap rorting", please explain to me how his "visy environmental ambassadorship" is anything other than blatant salary cap rorting. GUILTY You're missing the point Redleg. If he chose us he'd be our eye gouging, pressure point manipulating, mercanary liar and we'd love him and defend him. But he didn't, he chose carlton, so we rightly revile and despise him. :D Oh and he wouldn't be rorting the salary cap with us because we don't have the money or the corporate criminals running our club

Carlton......................to get hammered by 30+ goals. The kind of loss a list never quite recovers from.

First, forgive me if you consider this a drafting and trading thread, move it you like mods, but I think it's more a delisting and working with what we've got thread. The rumour, which seems to have some legs in the media, about Bailey's 1 year contract extension got me thinking about this. I think it would be a fantastic move by the club. It basically says the club supports Bailey's efforts to teach our young list to play and recognises that more time is needed for development before a 5-7 year premiership window opens. If this rebuild has been truly successful we should be a genuine premiership threat from the time Scully and pick 2 are 21 until they're at least 26. By then Jurrah, Garland and Frawley will be 29 and Morton, Grimes and Watts will be somewhere in between. These are the players we should be looking to build around. The next 2 years it is critical to get games into our young players and we are going to have plenty of them. As it stands right now there are 21 players on our list with less than 50 games under their belts, 18 of those have less than 30. That is certain to increase after we've finished delisting, trading and drafting. Next year I think we need to rest players if they have niggles and again be very conservative with injuries if only to ensure we can spread the experience through our list a bit. I'd rather Bailey managed the list to start peaking in 2012 than play his best 22 week in week out starting rd1 next year. I know a lot of people hope and think that we could sneak a flag early, like the baby bombers or the hawks last year. If we do well and good, I certainly won't be complaining. I really hope however that Bailey won't be seduced by a string of wins early next year and get ahead of himself as Daniher often did. The class on our list that could bring us sustained success is still in nappies in football terms. 2012 should be when we start picking our best side week in week out and if we win a flag early I think this would be it. Obviously we won't be playing for losses anymore and places need to be earned, not just rotation for rotations sake, but I still think some groundwork needs to be laid and Bailey is the man for the job. Anyway for discussions sake this is where i see the list RD 1 2012. It's very simple and doesn't allow for trades. First I'm guessing we'll draft 5 this year and 4 in 2011, assuming that draft to be pillaged, and I've elevated Spencer this year and McKenzie next year. Thats 11 spaces to find, 3 more this year. Valenti is stiff but I can't see room this year. None of these would be in my top 3 but I've gone with uncontracted players. Miller, Bartram and Buckley, all 3 are unlucky as I'd prefer Bell, Newton And Johnson but they'll follow the next year along with a retiring Junior and one of Dunn, Bail or Meesen By that time if we share the load around we could have, considering there's probably 10-12 players who pick themselves every week if uninjured a reasonable number of games into considerable sets of young legs, such as- 30-40 games Watts, Scully, Blease, Bennell, Strauss, Cheney, McNamara, Maric, Meesen, pick2, and pick18, with Jetta and Jurrah possibly pushing 50 50-80 games Morton, Grimes, Garland, Frawley, Martin, Petterd, Martin, Dunn, Wonneaemirri and Warnock Bate, Jamar, Mclean, Rivers and sylvia should all have pushed beyond 100 games with Davey and both Bruce and Green would be possibilities to go around again if their bodies hold up and I see no reason why they shouldn't. They'd both be on the veterans list and noboby else would be avilable yet I believe. By then competition for spots should be fierce and if we"ve had a good look at everybody we can make educated decisions post 2012 and beyond.

If we lost Jamar we'd need to trade for another readymade ruckman so there'd be no point. PJ, Meesen and spencer plus maybe a third round draftee would see us floundering in the ruck for at least 2 years maybe 5. Jamar is a required player and I wouldn't let him go for any less than a first round pick, maybe even top 10.

Bails mentioned his name in an interveiw a few weeks ago as one of a half dozen videos he's seen. Definately on the radar. If we go mids with picks 1&2 he'd be in the mix for 18, depends who BP rates and who's left. I'd be interested in your opinion beamer22 as I haven't been able to find much. I've read he's 198 and 99kg's and I'm of the opinion a big body to complement Watt's athleticism would be a good fit in our forward line. Does he like the physical stuff? Can he take a contested grab? how is he below his knees?

Everything seems to be measured in terms of a betting market these days. Thought it might be interesting to get peoples thoughts on the odds of who we'd pick up with Scully in our pick 1&2 bonanza this year and watch how it evolves until draft day. I'd have it as - Trengove $1.30 Butcher $1.90 Morabito $2 Lucas $8 Rohan $10 Martin $25 I have no idea how I'd go offering those odds, I'm no bookie. Probably end up owing millions :D I would of had Morabito ahead of Butcher a few weeks ago but I'm warming back up to the big fella a bit.

It's way too early to be setting our picks in stone. I still favour Trengove atm but there's plenty of time for that to change before d-day. Butcher had no preseason apparently as was playing injured during the champs according to some. I think it's important to remember that he made his reputation last year as an underage player playing against a draft pool rated for it's KPP strength. He seems to be running into form now which would be consistent with the injury/no preseason reports. With TAC finals and draft camp still to come there's plenty of time for opinions to change. I think it was draft camp that finally made Watts the overwhelming favourite last year.

I remember Dean's first press conference after coming to the dee's he was asked what he thought he could achieve with our list in 3 years. His response was along the lines of we were coming from a long way back, it wouldn't be measured in win loss ratio but rather competitiveness and then he made a promise of sorts. He said that if nothing else he would leave the list in much better shape than he found it. In the last month he's delivered on that promise and in a few years time we should see a genuine 5-7 year premiership window open up. Next year the hard work begins, climbing up the ladder. Bails hasn't done much wrong imo, the improvement this year has been there and he's had to contain the boy's a bit to deliver the PP, but I don't think he'd be under under any illusions as to what has to be achieved to keep the wolves at bay. He's had a reasonably easy ride from the media to date but they won't be so forgiving next year. For me 6-7 wins would be borderline and things such as injuries, close losses, etc would have to be taken into consideration, 8-10 wins is probably enough to guarantee him 2 more years. Any less than 6 wins and he'll be in serious trouble. I like Dean, he's intelligent, plays the media beautifully and has developed our young list very well so far. I think he was smart enough to know this was the only way he was ever going to get a senior coaching role. His background is in development so his only chance would be a club looking to rebuild. It was always going to be impossible to judge him as a matchday coach at the end of two years because he's been coaching to teach not to win, but next year is game on. I think he's exactly where he wanted to be right now and he always knew he'd be rolling the dice with the third year of his contract. I wish him all the best for a long and successful career.

About 1% of the trade rumours brought up around here have any truth in them and I seriously doubt this one. If by some miracle it did turn out to be true I'd be massively dissapointed, I rate the Russian, always have. ND stunted his development for years,giving him a couple of minutes at the end of quarters. He improved considerably last year under Bailey and despite injuries has taken another massive step forward this year. Next year, if he can stay on the park, he'll be a major reason for our climb up the ladder. Bails is obviously looking for a ruck option who can go forward and kick a few goals for us, he said as much in his post match presser. He's tried PJ, he's tried Martin, who would of thought Jamar would be the one to shine. He's strong and kept his feet in the contests beautifully today and kicked really well. I honestly think he could be a top 5 ruckman in the comp in the next year or two. Summing up, required player, not going anywhere, even if he wants to which I highly doubt.

What about Blease? He maybe a little slow with the cast and crutches and all but he'll be better for the taste of the bigtime. We MUST get games into these lads!

Agree Enforcer, versatility is important, we have backs that can go forward so picking up a few forwards that can go back makes sense. Plan B,C and D will be important in a few years. I like Carlisle's height, and he's not a beanpole. Big lump of a lad and we'll need someone who's not afraid to crash a few bodies. And with his late start at elite level he probably has more "upside" than Panos.

Trengoves season just goes from strength to strength. His form in the SANFL against men has probably made him the clear #2. Him and Scully ready to go in Rd1 would be massive. I'm not sold on Panos yet,haven't seen much but you need to be pretty good to be a KPF at 193cm. There's a few KPF's in the mix for pick 18. Carlisle is my favourite, listed at 196cm but I've read that he could be 198 now, sticky hands and a good kick. Couldn't find any footage but here's an article with some background http://www.sportingpulse.com/assoc_page.cg...sectionID=69677 Griffiths and Fitzpatrick could be in the mix as well, depending who's gone and how BP rates them.

If any clubs show interest in Bell, Newton or PJ we should happily unload them for a 5th/6th round pick (i.e-nothing) and be glad for the space on our list. I'd rather keep pick 2 than trade for Dangerfield. Can't see any reason to do that other than being scared of the go home factor and I'd rather back the club in. I think Melbourne will be a very exciting place for a 20, 21 yo to be in 2 years time.

Oh, so that's what this little fishing expedition was all about H. You truly are sad aren't you. OK you got me. Because I take the English language literally I don't want a flag as much as you.

I think we're all in complete agreement that the primary objective of a footy club is to win flags. My primary objective right now is to pay off my mortgage as quickly as possible, but it's not the reason I exist. This whole debate is semantics. For me "sole purpose" or "reason for existence" are a bit strong as I believe footy clubs are so much more than the goal they set out to achieve. Doesn't mean I want a flag any less than anyone else.

Melodramatic nonsense

Another great game by the big fella yesterday. 19 disposals, 10 contested, and 3 clearances. Both Lade and Brogan were scared of body contact at the centre bounces after half time and I particularly enjoyed the knee to Brogans rib cage. I love the way he lauches himself into the other ruckmen at the centre bounces and then follows up crashing bodies at ground level and clearing space. There's still plenty of room for improvement but I'd put all 4 of his games this year in his top 10 best career games. There's no doubt he's heading in the right direction, or that he belongs in the AFL. Good work Mark and good luck, we need you on the park

Calm down people, we haven't won 5 yet. I've said since the start of the year that the ideal finish would be off the bottom with 4 wins and I still think thats the aim. Picks 1&3 or 1&4 would be fine with me, still leaves us with Scully and a Trengove, Lucas, Morabito or even Rohan.

It's just an observation, I'm not sure where to find the stats, but I think we do much better with centre clearances with Jamar in the ruck. His bullocking work to clear space for our mids is his greatest asset and is why he can be far more effective than PJ with much fewer possessions. I think its a bit rich to get your back up about others critisising PJ Dappa when you're clearly prepared to give Jamar a flogging. Jamar beat Sandilands and Charman, among others, convincingly last year and has been better than PJ in every game he's played this year. The big russian is clearly our number one ruck despite whatever fantasy you concoct about games played. Take the blinkers off Dappa, Jamar's come along in leaps and bounds since taking the mantle off Jeff White mid last season, still a ways to go but I'm optimistic

Second game I've missed this year in Melbourne, the other was Richmond, D'oh! I was driving home from hol's yesterday and had the misfortune of hearing the Couldabeens on abc. Should be the neverwere's or the noidea"s. That talentless moron Champion had 3 songs spruiking Niknat as the most exciting thing to hit football, which wouldn't have bothered me on its own, but everyone of them had a verse bagging Jack Watts and usually Melbourne. He'd be right at home in the schoolyard with Jack, then again maybe not, he'd be more likely the victim than the bully in the real world.

There's some footage of Jack here it's the crows report from 17/6/09 and you'll have to sit through 2 minutes of crap but it's worth it. He looks good and says he doesn't care where he goes as long as he gets drafted.

Upped mine to $100 (DN122840), we've got to get it framed as well after all. Great work fork, Mt Theo, Sleeve and everyone else involved.