Lord Nev

Yeah, but I don't think playing success equals coaching success, even in terms of leadership. It's hard for us on the outside to know about coaching qualities so all we can go by is how they seem to be rated by the industry, and Goodwin was rated very highly. Obviously onfield performance comes into it as well, but that can be more of a complex equation than just judging one person. I think Goodwin has shown coaching "talent" in terms of innovation, demeanor and an ability to identify and implement his own style, but in classic Melbourne style he's the talent that isn't being developed properly. I believe if the club gets the right experienced support around him then he will develop into a very good senior coach. It's only his 3rd year after all.

My opinion is Goodwin got a bit ahead of himself in terms of what his capabilities and experience were and in turn how much support he would need. He's seemed to have taken all the control himself (along with the responsibility - just look at the whole near-faint saga) and thought he could fill his assistant roster with mostly fairly green coaches. It hasn't worked, and the one senior bloke he has around there doesn't seem to be a great connection with (if you go by reports). He's a microcosm of the team itself. Lots of talent, got ahead of himself, needs to accept that he requires better quality support and structure to succeed.

Totally hear that, and I think if we had just coasted along things might have stayed stagnant and comfortable, but the shock we've copped should (hopefully) stir more action than a middle of the road year would have. Funny you mention the whole thing about cliche statements too, was listening to some talk about the '89 Grand Final this week and in particular Jeans' halftime message about "pay the price", and I thought gee that has a whole different feel to it than "esprit de corps" (so very Melbourne).

The more impactful changes that come after a year like the one we're having. If we had just cruised along, finished somewhere 5-8 then got bundled out without winning a flag the kind of changes we made might not have been big enough to push us to another level. Now, because of the horror we're currently enduring, serious questions will be asked, serious changes will be made, and it just gives us a bit of unpredictability for 2020 (along with a better set of picks and a cushy draw). Even despite my ingrained Demon depression and distrust, my gut still says this year is an aberration.

AFL fans in May: 'The violence is out of control, why isn't the AFL doing anything?!' AFL fans in June: 'The security is out of control, why is the AFL doing so much?!'

Yeah maybe after 1 game, possibly 2, you could say that, but I reckon after one and a half seasons of doing it you could say he's going against instructions given it appears he's made no change to his approach. I could forgive him based on being a poor kick if he was making the right decisions but not executing, but he's making the wrong decision 9 times out of 10 in my opinion. It's not our only problem, but I guess I just place a lot of importance on it being it's a co-captain.

Yeah definitely Jones isn't providing a great example either, and even though Viney is only slightly ahead in inside 50s per game, it just seems a lot more noticeable that his delivery is so poor, perhaps because he attends more centre bounces and more often has that chance for clean use. Personally, I would be all for dropping Viney next week to work on this part of his game. It can't be great for the players to have a co-captain directly contradicting coaches instructions and then turning around and trying to instruct them on what to do. Goodwin is clearly frustrated about our lack of 'connection' forward, so imagine having Viney give you a bake for your delivery forward on behalf of the coach...

Yep, for sure. It's a multi-faceted problem where all 3 factors in structure, delivery and form (or talent) are all important. They all intertwine: More open structure allows for better delivery which will help improve the form of our forwards. I guess I'm focusing on delivery so much as we have a co-captain responsible for so much of that problem currently.

For mine, talent is important, but structure is king. Whilst I agree some outside class, a tall and small forward are much needed, I think you've skipped over the context of those inside 50s and gone straight for the most simplistic stat. I would suggest watching the West Coast game again as a prime example of what i'm talking about. We had good inside 50 numbers, which by your reckoning is great, but the context to that is that Hurn had double figures in intercept marks and we lost the game. I'm all for bringing in more forward talent, but if we go in with the same mentality from our prime mids and co-captain then they will not have the impact you think they will. Both things are key, but IMO delivery improvement is a higher factor.

We're ranked 2nd in the league for inside 50s. Which is great and everything, but it's only part of the picture. Combine that with our inside 50 retention (3rd last), our ranking of 4th worst for opponent intercepts and our ranking of dead last for opponent rebound 50s and it paints a clear picture of our delivery forward being a massive problem for us. We're 2nd for tackles inside 50, but I think that's a bit misleading given our volume of inside 50s and poor delivery. From an anecdotal point of view it looks like our forward pressure is fairly poor. It's not a 1 solution problem. I agree with your (many) posts about another quality tall forward target improving us, but my opinion is that better delivery would offer us a greater improvement if we were just to look at one aspect. It's obviously a complicated one, as forward structures, leading patterns and even form of our forwards comes into it as well, so it's not as simple as just delivery of course. My main concern is Viney (sorry, I know I promised I wouldn't bring it up again). From an outsiders perspective, he seems to be doing things that are in direct opposition to what the coach is saying, at least externally. So either Viney is not playing how the coach wants (terrible for a co-captain if so) or Goody's telling us 'connection is important', but telling the players something else.

Won't repeat it again so I'm not a broken record, but AFL average for inside 50 delivery/retention is 46%. As a team, we are rated 3rd last at 41%. This year, Oliver is going at 30%, Gus at 33% and Viney at a league-worst 24%. They are our prime movers and users going forward. Compare that to Harmes (59%), TMac (57%) and Petracca (48%) and it starts to become a bit clearer where the forward delivery problem lies. Given Goody's talk of forward connection this year, and talk last year about 'lowering our eyes' going forward on numerous occasions, it seems we have a co-captain leading the way in doing the opposite of what the coach is instructing. This could very well be a part of the overall equation of why we lack so much cohesion and unity as a team currently.

Delete my post here please mods.

If you "express yourself" by abusing people then I'll be glad to see you banned from the footy.

Or you could just, you know, not abuse people at a sporting event.

IN: T. Smith, ANB, Lockhart, Lewis OUT: TMac, Spargo, J.Wagner, Viney Time for TMac and Viney to either go back to VFL level for some work on their respective form and skill issues, or to go and get the medical procedures they seem to need to allow them to be ready to work on those things from day 1 of preseason. Would like to see Lewis played in a half forward role where we can try utilizing his foot skills to improve our inside 50 delivery. ANB has had a struggle of a year, but he could bring some much needed forward pressure along with Lockhart, who along with Hunt and Garlett could really give us a dynamic mix of smalls. I can't see Preuss coming in at this stage given our weaknesses of creating forward space, winning ground balls inside 50 and applying defensive pressure inside 50. He'll be a real asset after another preseason or two, but his lack of a tank is in opposition to our manic game style currently. Would not be totally against him coming in though if ANB and Lockhart are both actually brought in to balance it out.

When did abusing people become synonymous with enjoying a day at the footy?

Salem looked to be really struggling after that. He ended up having plastic surgery that night to repair the damage.

Not just Melksham, but if we're comparing to last year I think we're also very much missing Kent, Hogan and an in-form ANB. Without those last three (yes I know ANB is still with us, but I'm talking injury-free and in-form), we are missing: 5 goals per game. 2 goal assists per game. 4 marks inside 50. 3 inside 50 tackles per game. That's more than a 7 goal turnaround (in simplistic terms) from a direct scoreboard impact point of view, which is significant given we are averaging 5 less goals a game this year so far. I understand the reasons for both Hogan Kent leaving, so not arguing we had much of a choice trade wise, but the reality is that's a massive impact to a forward line which is also now without it's best marking target inside 50 and deliverer inside 50 in Melksham. To compound matters, the delivery inside 50 of those players has been replaced mostly by Oliver, Gus and Viney who this year are all averaging far far below the AFL average for inside 50 delivery. Viney in fact is rated as the single worst in the league.

I'm sure there's plenty of effort and instruction going into training and everyone involved is working hard. That does not mean it's effective though. You would agree our "forward connection" is a major issue yes? Along with our finishing in front of goal? Pretty hard to argue. Currently, we have a former defender (albeit a quality one) as the sole coach responsible for our forward structure and goal kicking technique. Now, you may argue he knows the theory, but clearly it's hard to instruct players who have played 100 more games as a forward than he has on what they should be doing with their leading patterns and set shot routines. I'm not sure what more evidence you need other than our performance this year in that regard. As far as "flying" last year, that's simply not the case in regards to our forward structure and goal kicking accuracy. We were appalling in front of goal against decent teams, and a combination of fitness, momentum, form and the previous rules all kept us winning, but our forward delivery and structure was still poor. Let's remember, we're specifically talking about forward craft, structure and the delivery here, and none of that was"flying" last year either. McCartney and Egan absolutely have my respect, but between them they have the sum total of 1 AFL goal. Not exactly forward experts or the blokes you'd go to for set shot routine advice. "It is just not happening in games" just doesn't cut it mate.

Yeah totally get that. Is the presale offer to MFC supporters a different price to retail? It could end up that $99 is a lower price. Not sure. As a company they raise funds for MND and also assist in clean water projects, so I'm pretty happy buying such a unique Dees product made by a genuine champion of a player and bloke (incidentally Paul Hopgood is involved too), that will help those causes as well as the club.

Brewmanity are part craft beer company, part philanthropic endeavor. Whilst $99 is not over the top for a slab of craft beer, especially one that could be regarded as a collector's edition, it's worth noting that Brewmanity donate proceeds from every beer sold and have currently raised over $150,000 for the Cure For MND Foundation.

Have you heard them giving detailed ongoing instruction on how to do the correct things? I believe that is the underlying point of this thread. No one is doubting the coaches are wanting the players to do the right things, but we have some quite inexperienced assistants who haven't played in the part of the ground where the majority of our problems are currently. Most here seem to agree that the problem is execution and not effort, but how does a new coach, whom had a career as a backman, instruct a forward how to lead, what sort of set shot routine to have, how to deliver the ball how a forward wants it etc when they have no experience of that as a player? "The effort is there just not the execution" applies to the coaches as well as the players.

The thing I've loved about his season so far is that he's matured even more. Up until late last year, if he got frustrated during a game he would often start belting hitouts in random directions as hard as he could, but that habit has disappeared this year and some of his team mates could learn from that maturity.

Tom had the boots off quicker than ever on Monday. Given the likely nature of the injury I'm not sure if it's one they can operate on or if it's just one he has to manage, but if an operation is required I really hope the club sends him off for it now. The season is over for us, and it will be incredibly short sighted if we run the players into the ground in a desperate attempt to milk everything we can out of it and end up in the same boat preparation wise next year.

Love him. He has so many qualities we need, namely consistent effort and the investment in the club that sees him desperately want it to succeed, but you can't ignore that his delivery forward has hurt us this year, even more than previous years, after we've traded out so many of our effective forward users. I'm not sure if it's just a weakness in his game or is related to his foot problems, but either way we now have half a season of footy where results don't matter as much as improving problem areas so something needs to be done about it.