warren dean

Assuming the purpose of recruiting is to add value to your playing list to achieve the ultimate success, then in the last 10 years we haven't been very good at it. Then again, the only clubs to have achieved the ultimate in the last 10 years are Adelaide, North Melbourne, Essendon, Brisbane, Port Adelaide, Sydney, West Coast and Geelong. Of those clubs you could mount a case for some of them having some serious drafting advantages - Geelong father/son; Sydney and Brisbane salary cap advantages plus Brisbane also having a number of players collected through zone concessions e.g. Voss etc; Port Adelaide who had a number of key players tied to the club such as Tredrea, Dew, Peter Burgoyne and therefore unavailable to be selected by other clubs. So out of that lot, the only "uncompromised" lists were really the Roos in 1999, the Bombers in 2000 and West Coast in 2006 ( although they may have been compromised by other things!) My views on our recruiting are quite well known, but it is important to note that the recruiting process has not really been a level playing field very often. As to where we rate overall, it is a matter of opinion. Like most supporters, I wish we had have been able to pick up a decent KPP or two - I still believe Henderson may be the one who got away!

You often talk a lot of sense,'bub! This is just another example. Let me know when you decide to run for the board - you've got my vote! One of the better ideas this club has had in a very long time!

Some really interesting points raised in this thread. As a member for over 20 years now, remember this about our membership - the MFC members are effectively the only Club membership in the history of the game to vote their club out of existence. Many of you posting here are no doubt too young to remember 1996 (the Centenary Season, by the way!) and the last year of Fitzroy. As Jaded has often pointed out, our membership and supporters can be fickle and pedestrian in their support, the Club needs to give them a reason to want to be there, as 'bub rightly says. But history tells us, we aren't afraid to vote ourselves out of existence - I'm sure the AFL remember this!

Absolutely correct! And why is it written about so often? Becuase it is absolutely correct! Until something is done about it, it will continue to be written until..... Remember the last club nobody hated? They were a team called Fitzroy!!!

Ash, I reckon you're right re long term but my concern is we are not a footy club that can be considering anything other than short to medium term atm. Unlike the Bombers who can have a pretty ordinary year and then get another 5000 members sign up, we are heading south in a hurry. I think appointing Sheedy would have been an enormous opportunity to galvanise the club and help to rebuild in the 150th year. If you like it could have been similar to the job Barassi did with the Swans in the early to mid 90's which really set up Eade and Roos for the success they had. I can see Sheedy promoting that the MFC provided more players to the armed services than any other club (and more war dead) and we would have been playing for the "Kokoda Cup" or some such! He would have generated an enthusiasm and excitement that would have allowed us to develop (or redevelop). Let's say we have a dismal year this year ( a development year) then how many members sign up for next year? If we follow the Hawthorn model, then we are talking at least three years before we experience any sort of success, as well as replacing about one third f our present list. At the minute we have pretty much a no name coach, no marquee players and a membership base that is the smallest in the league. We desperately needed to appoint more than a footy coach and I can't help thinking that we missed a massive opportunity. By the way, these are views I have held since August last year as my previous posts indicate, and in no way reflect the disgraceful effort put in last weekend.

Excuses, excuses! Neale Daniher took over in 1998 after an abysmal few years (except 94) under Neil Balme. In 1997 we won only 4 games. We were immediately competitive the following year. We made the semis of the equivalent of the NAB Cup and then lost Round 1 in Perth against the Dockers by 16 points on a day of extreme heat. We then came out and towelled up the mighty North Melbourne by four goals ( a year in which they finished first and should have won the flag)! He instituted a whole new game plan which the players learnt in a school room situation over that preseason and we played some very good footy from the start. Bailey has come into a very similar situation and as yet hasn't manged to engineer the required changes. It may take time to adjust but the result should never be an 18 goal disaster such as that witnessed last weekend. If the players after 6 months of training still don't get what the plan is then change the players or the plan. Play the young guys who are less familiar with the old plan and should therefore be easier to indoctrinate with the new. Don't re-promote the old guard to leadership positions if all they want to do is reinforce the old plan. Remember, despite all of our injury problems last year, we defeated finalists in Collingwood and Adelaide, and lost to eventual prelim finalist North by 1 point and Grand Finalist Port by 5 points. This is not a team without some talent and new game plan or not that result was totally unacceptable.

Well the question is "what is he going to do about it?" He has been the coach since September last year. He has been responsible for the pre season, he has had time to educate the players re the game plan. He also knew for months that he would be facing a Hawks side without 3 of their top dozen players (then Brown was to miss as well). So far after every pitiful loss (Sundays makes 5 in a row counting the pre season) all he's spoken about is how disappointing it's been and how we'll be working on it. I can't recall a more disgraceful performance from a Melbourne side in my time following the club. We have lost by similar margins in the past but at least we had the excuse of being seriously undermanned through injury etc. On Sunday Hawthorn's missing players were far more significant than ours (with the possible exception of Rivers balanced then by the injury to Croad). We never put in an effort like this under Daniher. He has overseen the selection of the most woeful leadership group in the competition - I can't imagine that Yze would get a game at any other team and Miller would be at very long odds as well. If it truly is a new era then why take a step back with the selection of this leadership group? If he wants to start a new era then dont fall for the trap of dropping Weetra and Morton this week - keep playing the young guys and put the games into them. I don't see a clear plan or vision atm and I think we need to get one quickly. Could anyone discern any sort of game plan on the weekend? All the talk about Bailey has been positive so far but I am yet to see what all the excitement is about. This club was crying out for an experienced head coach who could sell the place. Instead we have gone for an extroverted CEO. I would have gone the other way and put Stuart Fox in charge of the business and Sheedy in charge of rebuilding the club and team. If Bailey was that impressive at interview be bold and make him Sheedy's main assistant with the opportunity to move into a co-coaching role and then let him take over in a couple of years. All water under the bridge now I know and we need to just get on with it. It's hard after a performance like Sunday's though!

Cam has been a fine player over a long period. He is no superstar but he has performed to a creditable level over long enough to be regarded as a worthy AFL player. His best games have often been in run with role. He has played well on Hird and Brad Johnson in this role and at this stage of his career it is what he should be doing. His great advantage with this role is that he can hurt teams going the other way. The problem he has at the moment is a limited pre season and an unrealistic expectation. I don't think he has ever been a match winner, more of a saver. Todays effort was not one of his best but he wasn't Robinson Crusoe! The skill level of most of our senior players was appalling and their lack of preparedness to run, carry, distribute etc etc was in stark contrast to what would be expected of a side genuinely having a dip! A question for the statisitical boffins out there - has any coach had a worse start in terms of losing margin to their coaching career than Bailey? I can't remember any that have managed to lose by more than 100 in their first game. I hope somebody has!!!

At the risk of reopening the who should coach debate, could you imagine Sheedy allowing us to have this lack of profile! I note with interest that the Herald Sun SuperCoach comp has had so much interest it crashed last night according to todays paper - with a big picture of Sheeds above it. Bailey may well turn out to be a good coach, but I'm more worried about the prospect of him actually having a club to lead in a few years time. Sheedy would have been brilliant for the next two to three years whilst the club groomed a long term successor and helped build the profile so that announcements like the one just made would have received their due air play! I know it's done and dusted and I hope Bailey turns out to be Norm Smith and Ron Barassi rolled into one, but I can't help but feel we missed a golden opportunity!

Certainly after the finger injury in 1987 ( he got it caught in one of the old lace up jumpers - Steve McCann of NM from memory- which resulted in them being banned) he spent most of the rest of the season as a deep forward. We had quite a mobile forward line - blokes like Lyon and Warren Dean across half forward, with Flower, David Williams and Ricky Jackson closer to goal. He was great wherever he played!

Love your work,'bub! As a resident of Langwarrin, half way between Frankston and Cranbourne, I'd be delighted if the Demons used Casey Fields! It is a great venue for summer training and the Casey Council continue to pour money into the place. It is the Scorpions home ground, and hosts a District Cricket side - Casey-South Melbourne. It is 35-40 mins from the middle of the City and has about 25 schools within a 20 KM radius of the venue. Certainly an opportunity for the Club to broaden its support base. Haven't had many stabbings out this way lately - I'm pretty sure there were no knives at Corey's party!!

It was an amazing effort really, lost somewhat in the PF result. After 16 games we were absolutely gone - 6 wins 10 losses and out of it. The turnaround came at VFL Park against Geelong - we got up by 40 points. The next week we pumped the Bears (54 points), and then a three goal win over the Tigers. In round 20 we gave Collingwood a hiding (55 points) and all of a sudden we were a chance. Round 21 was a night game at the 'G against the Eagles in their first season. They were still a chance as well. We pumped them by 61 but lost O'Dwyer and Grinter to suspension from that game. The next week was the famous Western Oval game (up by 15) and G Lyon broke the leg. As I said earlier, I've never seen a better effort from a Demons team over that 2 months. It brings a tear to the eye thinking about it now!

I certainly do remember the interview! The silence in my old man's Mazda 1800 was deafening as we made our way from Waverley back home to Narre Warren. We got home in time to see the final stages on the ABC replay and then I saw the interview. I believe it was Peter Gee interviewing Northey. Gee did his best to put a positive spin on it all but Northey wasn't having a bar of it. I remember his line at the end of the interview, "It just feels as though we've let everybody down!" It was great that he wasn't throwing around platitudes - I thought this was exactly what the players needed to hear. In retrospect they did play their guts out and were a bit unlucky, but gee I loved the way the Northey teams played. He got the absolute best out of them for five years. I thought 1990 was probably our best chance - we finished equal second but fourth on percentage and beat the Hawks in the elimination final. We then got a week off courtesy of the Eagles draw with Collingwood and we had beaten Essendon (the top team ) twice in 1990, including the Bennett inspired victory at Windy Hill. Alas, the Eagles got us the next week and the rest is history!

Still the most emotional aftermath to a Demons game I have seen. You must have been somewhere near me 'bub. I was behind those same goals - scoreboard end! Didn't get a great view of the Buckenara free and subsequent 15 as it happened at the other end. What a ride that last 8 weeks of the season were - still the most exciting 2 months of footy I have seen a Melbourne side play. Only a truly great side could have beaten us that day - unfortunately for us, Hawthorn were a "Hall of Fame"! I was supposed to be studying for my Year 12 exams - couldn't event think about exams after that game!

Noticed Ross Smith and Damian Hardwick from the Hawks behind the goals having a good giggle! No doubt pure relief from Hardwick that he didn't get the job!

Hasn't been a great preseason, has it? O/S punch ups, speeding fines, burnouts, hunting a new CEO, an unspectacular NAB Cup and practice match series, ordinary membership figures - when does the good news start? It's the 150th Birthday of the oldest sporting club in the world and I can't believe we've heard bugger all about it in the media - with a marketing guru running the club as well!

Just finished watching the tape - not overly inspiring stuff and made to look much better than it was by Geelong's attempts to be far too clever in the second half. My bigger concern is the fact that we currently have the lowest paid up membership figures for the season and I am struggling to see how an effort like yesterdays will garner more signatures. Great that a few youngsters got some game time -history says most of them won't last two to three seasons. Important that we can find out who might be able to play though. Obviously a lot of our best side were unavailable (as some were for much of last year). The skill level and decision making of our more senior players was a worry and I think this is where most of the criticism should be directed. This has been a major issue for a number of years now and if yesterday is anything to go by, it hasn't improved at all. I'm not prepared to panic yet - wait at least four rounds before that!!

This is a very interesting thread and just about sums up the whole Miller conundrum! Had Sheedy been appointed coach I was certain that Miller would be well looked after. I have always seen him as having all of the required attributes except the "footy brain" part, which most would consider to be paramount. I was convinced that Sheedy would have seen him as a Walsh/Wallis type project. It appears Bailey has been heavily influenced by his time with Sheedy and Mark Williams (who also has an interesting record with projects-our new assistant coach Mahoney being one example). I think if Miller can return to the levels of on-field aggression he showed in 2004 in particular (before he got really silly in 05), then he may well be a very useful player for us, whose performance can't be measured in traditional statistics alone. If he can be an "enforcer" of sorts and make opponents around him "second guess" then he will have gone some way to justifying his place. He has performed well in a couple of QB matches and certainly played a great final in 06 - he has shown he can play in "big" games. He has also performed well on Barry Hall more than once. Time will tell, but for what it's worth, I think Bailey's faith might be justified - if not, what have we lost?

Barry will do a good job - a much respected junior development figure for a while now. Paul Collins will be a loss from the network, though. He had an excellent record at Essendon for a number of years - he lived in the East Keilor area and was directly responsible for identifying a significant amount of talent from that area (both in the draft and pre-draft eras). He was highly respected by Danny Corocoran and CAC, hence making the move to the Demons. A good addition to the Saints recruiting team.

I was just thinking about some of the better footy leaders I have seen. Quite a few of them started out in their early to mid 20's - Carey was 21, Lyon 23, Kernahan 24 (but in only his second season), Hird 24, Terry Daniher 25, Voss 22, Worsfold 22 etc. It seems that in a lot of these instances the leader grows with the team. All of the above except Lyon and Hird(he wasn't Captain in 93) won at least two premierships as Captain. I would say each had a strong leadership group around them as well - even Lyon had blokes like Stynes, Viney, B and G Lovett. The abovementioned were all young but relatively experienced players. I really believe this is the path we could (and should) have gone down with McLean. Most of these guys were good players before they became Captain, and then became great players. I'm not saying they wouldn't have been great players without being captain, but the position did not diminish their performance.

Did Green say that? I would be very surprised if he did, but you never know.

It is all a bit puzzling isn't it? For a long time posters here and supporters in general have been concerned about the lack of on- field leadership, or the effectiveness of it. At the beginning of a new era for the club, rather than promote new leadership the club decides to promote former (previously dumped) members of said group - Miller, Robertson, Yze; and maintain others who have been heavily criticized for their apparent inability to be counted at critical times - Bruce. There must be concerns about Neitz's durability. I agree with the views of many that McLean is the next logical long-term leader. Why not bite the bullett and give him the job now? Leave a couple of old heads in the leadership group - Junior would be one; and promote the next generation - Jones, Rivers, Davey would be a start. It's all very confusing to me - some might say I'm easily confused! Green has been very consistent over the past two years as a member of the leadership group, and although I am not a huge fan of his, I can't believe that he would be dropped from the group to be replaced by the incredibly talented but inconsistent (and in footy terms, old) Yze, who has done very little since 2002. Still, as an outsider, I guess others are in a better position than me to judge-on exposed form though, we have a right to be asking the question!

Good post Rhino! I really admire Neita but Flower has had every Demon player since the early '70's covered. I used to turn up to Under 11 footy training with the No 2 on the back of my Demons jumper (the royal blue version) in the late '70's. He was the only Melbourne player other teams supporters knew. The only Demon who could have come close was Schwarz pre the knee injuries. Some of his footy in 1994 was as good as Carey- especially his first two finals. I was convinced he was the genuine superstar we so badly needed and then it all finished. He was a good player when he finally made it back but he could have been sensational. Neitz has been a great warhorse - in fact I would rate him very similarly to Roger Merrett from Essendon and the Bears (maybe without the hit man bit). A very serviceable player, great utility and inspiring. Talent not as great as some but worked hard to get everything out of himself. I'm glad he played for us!

An interesting discussion. Old, not really premature for the reason that everybody thinks they get better the longer they are in the job. I recall ND saying he was a far better coach in his last couple of years than his first few, yet the results might indicate otherwise. I don't think anyone expects the past couple of years of draftees to make any serious impact in 2008, so our success or otherwise will depend upon CAC's previous 8 years worth of drafting/couple of years of list management, and the impact that the new footy department has, as well as the development that the previous footy dept put into the list. Still, I get what your saying. Should be interesting to see how it all unfolds - I think that like a few sides, if we have a better than reasonable injury run then the bottom half of the eight is realistic.

The Ox came up through the u19's - recruited from Sunbury and debuted in 1991 in number 44. Fantastic job Jarka - only change I'd make would be Green out at number 10 and Whelan in - same draft as Green but at number 50. Injury not withstanding he is still one of our most important players. A great list, though!