fr_ap

Winning one is hard enough, but this year will be much harder in my opinion. Our defensive positioning/game plan and sagging back seemed to catch most teams off guard last year - we can be sure they will all have detailed plans to beat it this year. Add in COVID outs, a few injuries presuming we don't miraculously avoid them again, and who knows. Most teams rely pretty heavily on their top 6 and we are no exception. A long injury or three to the group of Oliver, Petracca, Gawn, Salem, Lever or May would make it tough. Personally, I think we still look very vulnerable to very tall/resting ruck forwards (all of the big bags kicked against us last year fell into this category) and expect a number of teams to capitalise on this whilst also backing their half backs to handball through and around our speed forwards. Collingwood game last year shows the blueprint. As amazing as we were we had our fair share of luck last year. Winning one without it (or maybe without as much of it) is the test from here on out.

KM doesn't have a great track record. Watches a lot of footage/highlights, combines with stats and doesn't actually watch anyone off the ball live. Plus, I'm not convinced he understands what's important in the modern game. Qualifies most of his judgements and is generally just overly verbose, contradicts himself and....annoying. If you couldn't tell, I'm not a fan! He was first to the scene and works hard, but that's about it. ESPN threw him a bone to loss lead their AFL readership from Big Footy. Never liked Kossie, said you could get higher production out of a....Jack Mahony. Yep. My wife took one look at Kossie in the U18 SA game and knew. This kid looked at a stat sheet and saw he didn't kick enough goals Ignore everything the fool says Rant over

It was actually Viney who won both clearances - first with a handball to trac, and then a toe poke into the Path of Jackson (good thing he did this too as both Jackson and Oliver had run ahead of the stoppage!) I will remember it for Petracca and Oliver but let's not forget who got the hard ball

Scrolling in bed with the wife asleep, you and Jaded have moved me to some silent tears here rpfc. Very well said. Nagging hurt is the perfect description. I've nothing to add other than what I said to my 65 year supporting dad on the post game video call...who's to say that this would have happened if this was played at the G? If there had been crowds all year? Its happened the way it's happened and couldn't have happened any other way. We're lucky to have something bringing us so much joy and we're lucky to have this forum of kindred spirits. Reading this thread and hearing of the happiness, the joy, the disbelief, the emotion - it's almost been as good as watching the game!

Scrolling through this thread and the Demons Twittersphere has been a genuine pleasure. I wondered if I was alone in tearing up (only a few, I'm saving them yet) as max celebrated but from what I've read there were many locked down households shedding a tear tonight. Amazing what sport can do. Whilst I don't think the result actually mattered that much (could absolutely be wrong), the manner of the comeback, the fact it was Max having botched it before, and the memory of Tuohy in 2018 (still the most painful loss I can recall. I cannot forget it) was an amazing confluence of events that pushed me over the edge. If we achieve nothing else from here on in, I'm so pleased as Dees fans we were able to have that moment. Despite what the Blues, Bombers, Saints and Tigers (pre '17) fans may claim re. Lack of success, no other supporter base has been through what we have. From the years of beltings to the rays of light being crushed (Jim, Jesse, Jurrah the most notable), to dysfunctional management to all-time worst coaches to bizarre sponsor fiascos, to having no respect in the office, the schoolyard or at the dinner table, it's a miracle we're alive (and now, more than kicking) In my 30 years I've watched other fans enjoy these moments, enjoy these years of success. It never seemed to eventuate for us but it did tonight and it has this year so far. Enormously cathartic. Whilst we don't get to have the 'home QF', the crowd, the fanfare of what (hopefully) is to come, I feel lucky to have enjoyed this season when so many Dees fans no longer with us waited and waited for these days never to come. Doing this without my dad, brother and sister locked down in various parts around the state, or without the swell of Dees fans we all so enjoyed in 2018, is not the way I pictured it. But I'm going to enjoy being the minor premier and at the pointy end of the finals as much as I can. It may never come around again.

Includes the last quarter - they were on the bench when the lightning struck. Nothing to it.

I also like Toby and we know Jack has limitations but this is a pretty amazingly bad call. Not only has Jack played many important roles over the journey and has been our physical barometer, but Toby isn't an inside mid at all. I agree he's eye catching when he's there for Casey but there's more to inside midfield work than the odd burst of speed and acceleration. The absolute peak possibility here is that Toby follows the Shai Bolton school of development as a small forward who develops over a period of years into a very smart HFF/part time onballer. But he hasn't even cracked the team yet on a regular basis... Plus, he can't kick to save himself. I'm so tired of people attributing a high level of skill to Toby seemingly because of his appearance/manner/heritage. He's a shocking shocking field kick and misses more targets than Viney.

A word of warning on the 'third youngest team' thing - that's quite a bit of a misnomer when a lot of our success relies on May (maybe 2 years left at best), gawn (maybe 2 or 3 but he's had a heavy few years), Hibberd (1 year after this probably). They are three key cogs we absolutely cannot replace any time soon. Arguably in the best spot in the ruck with Jackson - but May in particular and Hibberd are irreplaceable and there is no-one in the twos pushing for their spot. Maybe Bowey for Hibberd, but that's not like for like IMO. Bowey being groomed for the Salem QB role. We all know May is irreplaceable and the window with him at the peak of his powers is closing. Unfortunately, another year or two to mature might be what trac, Oliver, Jackson, rivers and kossie need, but by then it might be too late. The list demographic challenge is very real.

It's an interesting situation - I think a few of us need to take a deep breath. Fact is every club other than the Bulldogs are looking at us are envious of our position. Until next week at least. I think the combination of the lack of any large margined dominant wins, together with our fragility as a supporter base, is creating this sense of panic that really isn't justified. Personally I've never had a season where we just...keep on winning - I think it's natural that then when we lose, we get dramatic and think the wheels are falling off. We've known nothing else for our football supporting lives. The evidence says we've met every serious challenge this year under a variety of different circumstances -beat red hot Sydney despite playing poorly ourselves ('winning ugly') -reversing momentum against one of the best front running aggressive teams in the comp (Brisbane) -going after the wounded champion (Richmond) -systematically dismantled the gameplan and contest skills of our nearest competitor (WB) Whilst we beat Geelong, there were missing a host of their best players and I'm not sure we'd fare as well against their full strength 22. Unfortunately those who have led the charge - Petracca and Clayton - are immature. There are weeks or months (apparently) where they lose focus, lose application and lose consistency. The forward line is also generally very immature. It's no coincidence that Kozzie's drop in form has corresponded with the team's drop in form. Barring injuries to May and Lever, our defence will keep us in most games. The rest will turn on the mood and attentiveness of Petracca and Oliver. Think about the week to week consistency we get out of May, Lever (who is a very old young man), Hibberd, Gawn, Tom Mac, and the quietly mature Langdon. If we had that sort of consistency of output from our prime movers - Petracca, Oliver, Harmes, Kozzie - we'd look a lot more like a premiership team. The forward line needs work in general but I honestly think that lack of maturity is the problem. We just can't rely on our game changers to show up on any given week or even in any given quarter. We can fiddle with structure, we can add BB in, etc etc....I can't help thinking that is all academic. Our fortunes will rise or fall on the mental positioning of our prime movers come finals time.

Some of you need to remember where we've come from I've no idea why some of you think the team defence was off - i thought the adherence to the gameplan was at season high levels. It was evident extremely early in the 1st when they just couldn't move the ball and continued through the night. A lot of their goals came from stringer breaking lines (not many can do what he does, so I'm comfortable with that) or individual errors from our players. Fact is we kept an extremely high scoring team that has been on a hot run of form, to a very low score. And we did it happily letting their mids get heaps of the ball. Agree with the poster who suggested that whilst we looked like we lacked a target and Weid/BB may have been able to add to our score, I don't think we would have been able to defend them the way we did if another big tall was in the fwd line, given the dynamism of their back half. Defence first wins again. I thought the horses for courses selection in that regard was terrific. It also felt like a frustrating win because of the inaccuracy. Most other weeks that's a 5 goal win and it would have been shut down much earlier. There are weeks where that happens and we fought through it and won anyway Arguably up there with our best wins for the year. Wasn't pretty and wasn't free flowing so it doesn't feel like it, but I think on reflection it was. Koz will be fine, needs feedback to focus on simple things but he's still learning. For a 2nd year player the impact he and LJ and Riv have our team is immense. They'll all have ups and downs - ATM LJ is definitely up! (Despite the brain fade)

Absolutely Love Oliver but he's such a bloody head case. Wins it like no other and gets clear looks to put it i50 - proceeds to stop, pivot, handball sideways or backwards to players on their back foot. Needs to grow up - gawn had 4 cracks at him tonight A brilliant player, brilliant - but childish. Would love choco to mentor as the kid has no ceiling

Fair enough - wasn't referring to you directly, moreso the general vibe of these weekly threads where collectively we seem to have a laugh about opposition fans thinking they're a chance against us. Don't get me wrong - I'm all for deriding them for being Essendon more generally as drug cheats etc - but I personally don't blame any of them (nor the Pies fans last week) for being optimistic against a team that has done nothing but let us down for the best part of 10 years This week's thread has actually been far more humble than the Collingwood one and K2P you're right in that you never said we cant lose it. Apologise for the misrepresentation

Hilarious and ironic that some accuse them of overconfidence....much like they did the Collingwood fans that thought they had a chance Surely we still realise we can lose to anyone on our day with our only losses coming to bottom 4 teams?

The goal was great but far from the most impressive thing.... rewatch the 4th quarter - there is a play near the end where it was impossible for Richmond not to score - it starts on the members side wing/hff for Richmond and eventually ends up in the pocket near the Anzac flame. Between the wide shots and the close shots - nibbler is pretty much never out of frame - he goes and goes and goes and goes and goes and eventually the ball falls into his lap and he mongrels the ball out of bounds. A Richmond guy near me at the game said 'how did we not manage to score there? I implore you to find it and watch it - you will see his value to the team. The goal from the boundary was just a bonus

I just posted saying I was wrong mate Read recent comments

I've now watched the replay and the pile on was right. I was wrong. Kossie threw a baby half elbow that barely brushed mansell's chin, and then Mansell reacted by wrestling koz to the ground. And Kozzie post-goal was much less taunting than I originally thought. Thanks for calling me out all I particularly enjoyed Bolton saying 'come on, come on' to Viney - like he would last 3 seconds in that fight. He then went and decked Oliver for the 2nd free. How good!

Glad to hear Goodwin was having a word. Mentioned in his presser too that Kossie needs to deal with the attention better. More or less vindicates my concern so I'm not sure why it's hyperbole. I haven't seen the incident in full in replay but from what I could see, Kossie somewhat instigated it. Agree with what you're saying though - passionate young kid who will mature in time. Just need to watch he doesn't overstep it in the meantime as I said, because the media narrative can quickly turn on him and like it or not, that can impact performance and careers. If a Richmond player had done this, we would be baying for blood and calling him a sniper. People were already calling Mansell a thug and sniper and he barely did anything.

I actually don't disagree with many of their observations. Many dees fans around me were embarrassing with their gloating - was a fantastic win and no one knows what it's like to have been a dees fan, but you'd expect some humility given all we have gone through. It is only April. I don't agree that Tigers fans weren't like this in 2017 though. I recall they were, led by Riewoldt on field. I might be the only one but I didn't enjoy Kozzie's actions in the 4th. Mansell had held him well all day (with some sniping/rough stuff but par for the course) and Kozzie was sick of it. Elbowed Mansell in the head and then held his knee on his throat....and somehow received the free kick. Then kicks the goal, goes back to the 3rd gamer for more and taunts him and points to the scoreboard (against the reigning premier no less). Think he lost a few fans tonight. I generally love his aggression but I hope the coaching staff can knock this on the head and ensure he stays humble. It's not the first time I've seen him do this either - he's dumped people off the ball before and gets away with it because he's small and exciting (check his snap against Geelong - was only free to run at the ball because he'd dumped someone). Maybe I shouldn't care...Michael Long was a career long sniper and is remembered for all the other reasons

I'm so sick of this narrative. The idea that a professional sporting team, which is by design playing at its maximum potential if the coaching staff and players perform their roles, can 'lift' for an occasion and suddenly become 10/20/50% better than they otherwise would have been is just pure nonsense. It implies that collectively they have been leaving something in the tank in other 'non occasion' games. Or that they are lacking motivation to perform in the absence of a milestone. Inevitably, the team that performs better on the day/night in terms of executing their roles, strategy and football skills will win the game. It's as simple as that. The media love these stories as they are sentimental and easy to understand, but it's just not a concept that holds any water. In this example I'm not sure how the passing of a club great would cause 22 unrelated men to collectively raise their output. In all likelihood, the Lions were just the better team on the day. As we were in Spud's game.

For those jumping on me for knocking him, yes I did watch him on the weekend. I've watched him since he joined the list, at training, in intraclubs and generally in every game he's played. I agree he was fantastic on the weekend and his pressure and aggression alone will be enough to get him games given the MO of our forward line this year....Spargo wouldn't want to have a few quiet weeks in a row. For me he was BOG ahead of Weid. I maintain though, and this is evident if you watch the weekends game without bias, that his disposal is his significant weakness. Short kicking could not be further from A1 if it tried - honestly can't believe someone has said that. He's got very little control (and the speed at which he moves Is no doubt part of the problem - see Treloar for years), overkicks significantly the majority of the time. He's in some respects the polar opposite of Spargo - he's got speed, agility, bounce and power, but far less skill and guile. Charlie lacks in explosiveness and speed and tricks, but his kicking and weighting of the ball IS A1. (The combination of the two is basically Kozzie). Chandler is another who has a higher natural skill level and is a touch cleaner particularly on the deck, but doesn't quite have Toby's explosiveness. Absolutely not writing him off - he has improved significantly with the benefit of a couple of pre-seasons and his strong attributes are indeed high level. Natural skill/feel for kicking is hard to mask though and may put a ceiling on his potential. More than happy for him to prove me wrong - he wouldn't be the first player to improve his skill level (Jobe Watson, Nathan Jones, Tom McDonald all good examples) Seems many aren't capable of nuance - he's got tricks, and deficiencies. If he didn't he'd already be in the side....

Suggest you watch more closely. Has some attributes but disposal is not one of them - has been demonstrated at both levels many times

It's three things: -The way he looks - not just a ranga but a rough sort with a shocking hair cut -General likeability impacted by a range of diving type incidents (in the west and then against Carlton at the G) and his lack of interest in any sort of public speaking that tows the line; and -his relatively messy style of play at times The first two being the most important in footys popularity stakes. If he looked like Heeney or Cripps they'd be all over him like a rash. Majority of fans and media still sleeping on him as a result - been an absolutely phenomenal player from day 1, has fronted up every week since and has a very rare combination of attributes not many in the league possess. There's no one I'd switch him out of our team for, with the exception of Bont and Dusty and if we're projecting forward, perhaps Bailey Smith. The comparison has always been with Cripps but Clarry wins ball with speed, nous and balance not pure muscle & size. Cripps is more effective forward as he has the frame of Wayne Carey; they're very different players. I know who I prefer.

Fritsch says hello

I would also add for those who were disappointed at the progression of sparrow, Jordon, Chandler, Baker etc. - they may not be good enough after all but don't forget for everyone other than the best 22 last year, it was a total write off. No VFL, barely any intraclub/practise games etc. They effectively had to waste a year of their career. So 3rd year players should really be thought of as 2nd and so on. Any wonder Rivers, who was exposed to a lot of senior footy last year, already looks more at the level (notwithstanding he may simply be a better footballer than the others)

Some concerning signs I agree but just a note on Gawn and why he "can't tap it down the throat of the mids" A ruck is no good on his own - requires a midfield group that know how to structure a stoppage, block for each other and create space around where the hitout is directed. Watching closely yesterday it was obvious that the 2nd string midfield A) haven't played a lot together absent clarry, viney B) were taught a lesson on stoppage craft. Libba (who destroys us even when we have the A team in) gave Sparrow an absolute spanking in this - pushed him deep underneath every centre bounce before finding the ball, riding two tackles and dishing off to one of the other mids that held their structure. Sparrow, Jordon, Anb/avb/harmes swarmed around the ball and carrier meaning if they won it, they had nowhere to go, and if they didn't win it, it became vitally important they stuck the tackle, which they didn't because they aren't senior bodies. It's a VFL way of playing footy in the midfield - see ball chase ball and the strongest wins - rather than what's required of AFL mids to block, create space, cycle structure around a stoppage, break a tackle to draw a man etc The names highlighted demonstrated almost no aspect of this in their midfield craft other than Harmes, who displayed a little but was inevitably gang tackled as he had no assistance. Gawn can 'tap it down their throats' all day long but without proper midfield setup, it counts for nothing. People rave about Gawn at centre bounces - driven by the ridiculous value that hitouts are given for fantasy scoring, which have for some reason elevated certain ruckman to being ranked alongside the games most influential mids, forwards and backs. It's pure nonsense. For me the value of Gawn is purely in his marking and structures he provides us everywhere else around the ground. Agree with the earlier post who said give me a Bont or Pendles over a dominant ruck anyday. To some extent I hate that we wanted a top 10 afl player on our list for so long, and when it came it was a bloody ruck. It's an argument many have had - I maintain that an elite ruck is nowhere near a requirement for a flag compared to an elite midfield, creative small forwards and dominant key forwards. I'd switch Max out for Sonny Walters or Liam Ryan anyday. The best teams in the league - Port, Geelong, Brisbane, St Kilda - have a mix of good, serviceable rucks and battlers who fill a 'tall' need (e.g Ladhams). But they're stacked everywhere else on the ground. This is not a potshot at Max but a point to posters who seem to think that he can, via hitouts, somehow make us win clearances regardless of the cattle at his feet. Footy is that simple at country level but it's far more complex at AFL level.