fr_ap

I wondered this too. Hard to tell. Am I the only one that thinks Salem was clear BOG? Just about every stat he had was key - a tackle or spoil when they were out, a quick little handball or kick out of traffic relieving the pressure, or a deliberate buĺlet to the corridor allowing us to score. Clearly his best game at the club and the standard from now on. This is not diminishing the contributions of Viney, Oliver, Petracca, Hibberd or Pedo.

Agree with all of the above except I thought JKH actually competed hard against a few taller players. Like that he plays on quick when he gets it, if he had a bit more pace would be a damaging link player. Needs to be mentioned - vince went into the midfield at half time and it changed the game. He is a true mid and needs to stay there, thought he was horrendous early in the backline.

Do you have any idea what a tackle is? Champion data only record a tackle if it results in a stoppage or free kick. Every other 'tackle' we see in a game is not - otherwise every other player would end up with 10+ every week. The stat in isolation means nothing, a chase down tackle/harass that doesnt result in a stoppage/FK is just as important and kent does a million of these a game. We shouldn't be aiming for stoppages in the HF line anyway, so his tackle numbers should never be massive. Hes a very important player, particularly since rd1 last year when he was fitter and setting the standard for pressure. Couple this with some goal sense, pace and toughness and a lovely kick on the run and its not hard to see why the FD rate him. And no, at 50 games we should not be demanding more.

We haven't learned because we still have just about the youngest team in the league, as well as the most inexperienced coach. Until this team are older, barring an anomaly we will not be in the window. Look up the maths. Whilst shattered and still filthy about Viney as Captain (the kid is a good player when on song but never a leader. Have no idea what Goodwin has seen and hate the unilateral decision), I am a little encouraged that without all of our best firing (jones vince viney hogan lewis gawn are just about our top 6 players), we are still in positions to win games. And really, its off the back of guys like oliver, trac, salem and to a lesser extent ANB (who needs to improve decision making but he is slowly winning me over). Take steven, riewoldt, montagna, hickey, roberton and co out of the saints lineup. See how close they get. A top 8 team you ask? Take ward, shaw, coniglio, patton/cameron, z williams and Mumford out of gws and they come back to the pack. Martin, vlastuin, cotchin, j. Riewoldt, grigg and nankervis out of richmond. Etc. Etc. Etc. Depth is one thing but our outs are ridiculous, and whilst they havent cost us the games per se, hogan and lewis hurt us because their absence has coincided with some very poor form from our other senior players/leaders, and an injury to our spiritual leader and single best player. We've seen what we are capable of at our best. Unfortunately, we might not see it again this year with the spate of injuries we've suffered. Wagner over melksham anyday. Hib in so vince can bomb it from the guts. VDB in to complement the lack of size from ANB and laziness from harmes. I'll admit, weideman is a worry. He has time though. Hannan does not but looks a natural winger to me if he had a bit more size.

What hasn't been noticed by many was the work and time Geelong put into Oliver. Make no mistake - Blicavs played a hard hard tag - a good choice as Clarrie couldnt get his arms up into the clear as Blicavs was so tall. Then he used his running capacity to run off him, and kicked a few. Clarrie didnt have the tank to go with him and this was one match up we didnt fix the longer it went on. Cost us offensively and defensively and was a rare piece of good coaching by Scott. Other than that - Geelong have no system. None. Their entire game revolves around selwood or dangerfield winning the clearance and tumble punting it to hawkins and hoping for the best. Some of their supporters were incredibly smug in the last and a few were complaining about the vocal dees fans. Well, they managed to beat a team that beat themselves. I can't remember a team so reliant on so few players, it's absurd!

What hasn't been noticed by many was the work and time Geelong put into Oliver. Make no mistake - Blicavs played a hard hard tag - a good choice as Clarrie couldnt get his arms up into the clear as Blicavs was so tall. Then he used his running capacity to run off him, and kicked a few. Clarrie didnt have the tank to go with him and this was one match up we didnt fix the longer it went on. Cost us offensively and defensively and was a rare piece of good coaching by Scott. Other than that - Geelong have no system. None. Their entire game revolves around selwood or dangerfield winning the clearance and tumble punting it to hawkins and hoping for the best. Some of their supporters were incredibly smug in the last and a few were complaining about the vocal dees fans. Well, they managed to beat a team that beat themselves. I can't remember a team so reliant on so few players, it's absurd!

Was it not incredibly clear that my entire post was a sarcastic play at all our problems surfacing in one game? Although funny enough, describes quite a few previous saints games at etihad. We wouldn't want to write with emotion now would we. Goodness.

Right so perhaps 3 to 4 changes different from this squad means I have 'lost my grip on reality'. Yep. Garlett will not play. Perhaps Kent, but will be underdone. Casey doesnt adequately prepare. See Brayshaw this time last year. Jetta and Frost - again only one may play, likely short of match practise. Not sure what is wrong with Frost but is nowhere to be found. Hibberd won't play. AVB wont play. Wagner won't play. End result = no potent hf/forward pockets with goals in them other than Trac. One of Garland/J Smith plays. Like the kid Smith but Saints would be licking their lips at having one of these guys in the backline with an at times shaky oscar and very attacking minded melksham/vince/hunt. Goals galore beckon for one of the league's better forward lines. These are realities mate. If all the above miraculously recover and play well despite having no match practice, we are a good chance. Otherwise we are up against it.

Jesus you lot are touchy. 1. Dont confuse my reality check post with my support or hopes. I will be at the game cheering the good plays and moaning at the bad. I will be as positive as any if it is warranted. 2. To the poster who said i should put my money where my mouth is - I actually loaded up a while ago when the Saints were 2.50. They are getting shorter and shorter and will continue to do so, because I'm right. 3. In no way did i say they were unbeatable. I commented at length about our deficiencies and then outlined what needs to happen for us to win (assuming the saints come to play). 4. It has been widely discussed that tomorrows squad is going to be relatively close (80% is quoted above) to the rd1 squad. Injuries limit the number of changes in any case, barring recoveries (although this would cause issues with match practise). Clearly there is some hyperbole in my prediction but stranger things have happened. Would love us to win, just don't see it. Objectivity!

Not nearly as bad as the 25th of March will be if this is the squad we take in

Oh I forgot, ANBs elite endurance and trengove's decision making are going to overrun the zippy saints midfield on the fastest, smallest deck in footy. A brigade of mids who are forced to play half forward are going to contribute 10 goals plus between them, with brayshaw to kick 4, harmes 3 and salem 3. And watts will fire, despite having no match practise and being under intense scrutiny. And hogan won't get monstered by carlisle and double teamed at every opportunity. And oscar will fly high to deny bruce goalscoring opps. And garland will be incredibly alert and diligent to deny membrey time and space. And Tom Mac won't run off riewoldt and let him get off the chain. And Melksham won't turn it over through the corridor, and the saints wont overrun us with speed and spread on the counter. Honestly I pity you if you think this week's squad would win rd1. To stand any chance watts and petracca would need to kick 8 between them without kent and garlett around. The midfield would need to win the i50 battle by a big margin, because if it gets down there, the saints are going to score. Without hib/wag as third defender, we simply can't cover them. How's that for a bundle of reality?

100% agree. This squad, or anything close to it, is in for a 40-50 point loss in round 1 at Etihad. Bookmark it.

I was critical of him in the intra club and yes, some very slight straightening might be required. I can understand it when the coaches are telling them all to get it into his hands, but he needs to know his limitations. When he plays to them he is a good player. Some of his best involvements today were spoils or intercepts with his high leap - it doesnt necessarily have to be all run n gun. Also, he still can't kick that well. At the moment he is a poor man's JJ i reckon.

Agree. For what its worth I think we can carry both in the team and dont get me wrong - would love the old Jack to make it back.

I'll never understand how some watchers can see the opposite of another. If i had the time or the inclination I would compile a video to prove these points, but I don't. As I said, watch the tapes and you will see. He doesnt get a high tackle count, but his forward pressure is physical - he closes with speed and with power and forces mistakes. He is at least top 10 at the club for speed and his point of difference is he uses it to crash into people, not to run away like a hunt or frost. I'm actually quite confused - if this isnt VDBs strength what is? He's an average kick at best, not an endurance athlete and whilst he has a good set of hands, they are hardly outstanding. If you cant see his explosiveness I would be keen to understand if you think he has any value at all? Oh and Macca thinks both he and Kent are barometers and said as much in his updates, but whatever. 'Team effort' is weak language. Every team has individuals who set the bar in physical pressure and gamestyle. Ours are jones, viney, brayshaw (notice when he plays well we win? Barometer), kent, vdb. All because they bring physical pressure, speed and a direct style. Compare this to a vince who can have blinders on days we still lose. He's influential because he's offensive, but he doesnt bring the pressure like the guys above (save one game in Adelaide)

Dont think so. VDBs speed is to my mind his key attribute - many on here dont realise his speed and power are key to his spot. Thats why his defensive pressure as a mid or a fwd is very good, aided by his hardness. His skillset is unique among the playing group at his size (kent is the same but small). Trenners has neither speed or power and if he is to get games it would be at the expense/injury of a tyson/lewis, as our slower 'smart' mids with good endurance. VDB has his flaws but when hes firing we usually play well. Anyone who has watched back our wins from the last two years would see this. He and Kent are the barometers.

This. Good size and has a good look about him (something reminds me of Pendlebury but it isnt football skill), but hes at least a year off I think. Needs consistent games at Casey and should be aiming to be one of their best in a push for the flag they missed last year. Odd kicking style I thought.

I agree. What I am particularly concerned about is the manner in which the decision seems to have been made. Viney - "when i was told last week" Jones - "I was surprised at first" Jack's SEN interview - when asked whether he feels ready and the rationale behind the decision - "ask goody". He catches himself at the end and clarifies that "we all feel it is the best model for the club". Did Goodwin consult Jones? The playing group? Even Jack? Seems very odd for a man schooled in the theory of management and leadership to make an executive decision. I hope his judgment is sound - but I'm also of the school of thought that no one is ever ready for these things - NJ certainly wasn't and if you ask any Leader in business or elsewhere, more often than not someone placed them there based on potential. Everyone has to swim in the deep end for a while. One thing for sure is that Goody is bold.

Say what you want but if he plays poorly, I guarantee it will happen. If he plays poorly enough, it wont just be on here but in the media too. And no, the expectation on our young players is not to play very well every single week. If it was, many of them would not have gotten a game in the last couple of years.

Fair call, I will admit I was looking for it as I really, really dont like the decision or how it has been handled. I agree his impact negligible and execution poor is a more objective assessment. I choose to put it down to the decision as I expect better of our reigning b&f winner. What do you put it down to? As you point out, none of us could possibly know. The fact of the matter is that this is now the reality for Jack. Every dip in his performance, somone will attribute it to the captaincy. This is exactly why it is too early for him to get the job - he is still a little inconsistent and has a number of deficiencies in his game. The expectation on him in the last two years was to come in as a young player and have an impact - he did that. The expectation on him now is to play very well every single week withouf fail. Like Jones does. Jack is not ready for that.

There are a few posts here I fundamentally disagree with. Viney, petracca, melksham, harmes were not good. Cannot believe one poster saying viney was in everything. He was not, looked totally emotionally spent and was quiet as a mouse. Im sure I will get howled down for this, but if you are wanting an honest appraisal this is it. Overall I wasn't encouraged about our prospects for this year, but I'm absolutely prepared to wait and see. Intraclubs are strange things. Was the offense poor, or the defence good? Was the gamestyle inhibited as all knew what was happening in advance? How much did the team balance/casey boys mess with it? Too hard to tell. Oh - and I expect Wagner to play a few games. To be honest, other than experience I dont think he is miles away from Hibberd.

As noted by another poster, the same types of glimpses. Hes eye catching the way he jumps for the ball but as one of the coaches mentioned in one of the recent updates, once he hits the deck he needs to just gain a little more composure. Sometimes rushes his kicks. But itll come. Agreed with other posters that whilst i wrote a big report, hard to read too much into it. I got the feeling hogan vince and watts were sort of going through the motions. It was a hot day and to some extent trying to pull off plays they have practised was ruined by playing the casey fellas.

I managed to attend and found most of the play very ordinary with a lot (and i mean a LOT) of turnovers and kicks intercepted. To be fair, i didnt think it was the easiest to see who was who. A blue team player could be wearing a white hat or vv. Lets hope thats all it was. Standouts in no particular order as I noticed them were trengove, salem, lewis, oliver, brayshaw, hunt and jkh. In terms of the new players, dion j seems a good tackler but was a little snap happy, burning teammates to use his apparently elite radar to miss everything a few times. Lewis is a godsend - positions himself very well and receives the ball often at the back of the square where he swivels and switches out wide. Will be a very good addition. As noted Hannan didnt partake in the intraclub but there is something about him, rangey type but good style. Mckenna is neat and might be a player but he still struggles to find it or get involved. T smith - certanly hard at it but hes a bit 'messy' for mine. Not sure that matters, robbo was the same kind of messy, but i will say i can at least understand why he never got picked up. Keilty - I was a fan at casey but he either struggled to get involved today or i didnt notice him. When I did, I generally liked what i saw. Some random other thoughts...viney was absolutely off his game, very quiet and looked like he struggled with the heat. A lot of emotional energy expelled this week for him for sure, but I personally feel it is way too early for co captaincy and very early days that looked true. Sorry. Frost will play many games - pleasingly controlled his kicking and set up quite a bit with his speed. Hunt is somewhat of a revelation but can do too much. Needs to be careful he doesnt get stuck with the hog (sp?) tag as he continually ignores options instead choosing to sidestep and try the getaway. Tommy Bugg was rightfully filthy for a few moments he was ignored. I love Salem. Just does the right thing, 95% of the time. Very similiar to lewis actually. Weid looked alright. We miss kent. Jeffy actually looked in decent nick. Avb is important. Anb is not, fumbly one paced mid who just isnt as refined as the top level requires. Watts very quiet, didnt look like the apparent AA season he is supposed to have according to a few. I like hulett. I dont think anyone has said this but jkh is competing with stretch for the wing spot. Both good link players with neat skills and play to their limitations. not sure we could carry both in same team. Ok that rambled on. Any questions happy to answer

Has anyone called the club about this? forget destination club, no one would want to play in that thing

Echoes my thoughts in Monday's training thread when i questioned whether he had the will and drive to have put in any extra over the break. I didnt mean put in extra pints and have the will to drive! I've also been told from someone at the club that he copped some fair sprays at times last year about his behaviour in general being immature. Here's hoping he can either get through it like most young lads or if he keeps it, still turns it on at game day like Swanny.