Rightly we are giving a serve to various players, coaches and administrators on these forums, such was the performance yesterday..............

Fact is everyone at the club (including supporters who don't have memberships and/or don't go where possible) have contributed to where we are at right now......

Fact is though, its round 1 and, if being semi logical, we knew coming into this season there was going to be some very trying times, but that is what happens when you are trying to forge a new CULTURE................which is what've needed.

All that said, I can live with some skill errors (mainly from the kids), I can live with some structure problems (because they were inherited by the old footy department) and I can live with our seeming lack of game plan (as the coaching staff are all new, players take a good 10-15 rounds to learn, look at Saints).............I can put up with these things FOR NOW..........

But at the heart of the issues we have right now is HEART!!!! Yes you need talent, atheletism etc, but this great game has always been about winning contests! AND THATS ALL ABOUT HEART!!! Turn the ball over, then you have to win it back. Win a stoppage, then you can play keepings off.........but everything stems from WINNING CONTESTS, which can only be done by those who WANT it more...........

Some players showed heart yesterday, some none................one of which is the topic of this post.......

Why has Davey gone unscathed on here??? I was at the game, and didn't see the TV, but my old man is in QLD atm and said that commentators highlighted SEVERAL times he didn't chase, didn't run the other way, didn't pick up a free bloke running past him........basically didn't care and that was in the first Q!!!! he had several chances to make contests, possible win a few tooo, but didn't!!!!.............is he a midfeilder??? Does he know how to play midfield (and not just cameo roles up the ground)??? How bout giving him some tagging roles on the Kerrs, Wests and Judds first so he can learn HOW to play as an elite midfielder...........otherwise send him back to the forward line, at least he chases there!!!

Too many without heart (Bruce etc have been called out plenty already, its Davey's turn now!).............and to all those who say 'just play youngsters' thats not the answer either.........play those who earn it, and continue to earn it via HEART and EFFORT, regardless of age.........thats how u build CULTURE!!!!!!!!!!!! Talent be damned, and after a few years of RUTHLESS selection, the talent will develop and the culture of what is expected of players is set.........

Rightly we are giving a serve to various players, coaches and administrators on these forums, such was the performance yesterday..............

Fact is everyone at the club (including supporters who don't have memberships and/or don't go where possible) have contributed to where we are at right now......

Fact is though, its round 1 and, if being semi logical, we knew coming into this season there was going to be some very trying times, but that is what happens when you are trying to forge a new CULTURE................which is what've needed.

All that said, I can live with some skill errors (mainly from the kids), I can live with some structure problems (because they were inherited by the old footy department) and I can live with our seeming lack of game plan (as the coaching staff are all new, players take a good 10-15 rounds to learn, look at Saints).............I can put up with these things FOR NOW..........

But at the heart of the issues we have right now is HEART!!!! Yes you need talent, atheletism etc, but this great game has always been about winning contests! AND THATS ALL ABOUT HEART!!! Turn the ball over, then you have to win it back. Win a stoppage, then you can play keepings off.........but everything stems from WINNING CONTESTS, which can only be done by those who WANT it more...........

Some players showed heart yesterday, some none................one of which is the topic of this post.......

Why has Davey gone unscathed on here??? I was at the game, and didn't see the TV, but my old man is in QLD atm and said that commentators highlighted SEVERAL times he didn't chase, didn't run the other way, didn't pick up a free bloke running past him........basically didn't care and that was in the first Q!!!! he had several chances to make contests, possible win a few tooo, but didn't!!!!.............is he a midfeilder??? Does he know how to play midfield (and not just cameo roles up the ground)??? How bout giving him some tagging roles on the Kerrs, Wests and Judds first so he can learn HOW to play as an elite midfielder...........otherwise send him back to the forward line, at least he chases there!!!

Too many without heart (Bruce etc have been called out plenty already, its Davey's turn now!).............and to all those who say 'just play youngsters' thats not the answer either.........play those who earn it, and continue to earn it via HEART and EFFORT, regardless of age.........thats how u build CULTURE!!!!!!!!!!!! Talent be damned, and after a few years of RUTHLESS selection, the talent will develop and the culture of what is expected of players is set.........

He seems to have lost almost all his pace. I have no idea how or why, but it saddens me

I want the Davey of old. What we see now is just a shadow of the excitement machine of 2 or 3 years ago.

Did we make a mistake with Davey, beefing him up over summer so he can play in the midfield, thereby reducing his speed?

I'm worried that we're too focused on getting him into the centre of the ground, even at the expense of his greatest asset, his speed.

He looked almost overweight yesterday, and yet when he was chasing down a player he could barely lay a tackle.

Was probably our biggest non-performer yesterday.

If ever he is struggling, the simplest thing we can do is chuck him at the feet of the FF. That is his natural position and he will always make something happen down there. I'm not convinced that he'll ever quite make it as a midfielder, and I would hate for him to end up like Brad Green (could have been a great forward, but is now just an average midfielder).

Our lack of speed all around the ground is depressing. We look like a team assembled in a senior centre.

Did we make a mistake with Davey, beefing him up over summer so he can play in the midfield, thereby reducing his speed?

Didn't the approach to Jones's training change to reduce his bulk, and increase his speed. Haven't they learnt anything?

Our lack of speed all around the ground is depressing. We look like a team assembled in a senior centre.

Our lack of speed is a little overstated. Our inability to get first hands on the ball and gut run are much bigger concerns. We have some players who dont know how to push themselves.

Davey looked awful. Unrecognisable.

Our lack of speed is a little overstated. Our inability to get first hands on the ball and gut run are much bigger concerns. We have some players who dont know how to push themselves.

Davey looked awful. Unrecognisable.

I'm pretty sure we broke even in the clearances yesterday.

why oh why isnt davey in the forward line...why???? he played his best footy in the forward line and you can tell when he is outplayed by his clone cyril rioli in his first game that he should be in the forward line because that is where the light, speedy goal sneaks play their best footy. alwyn davey is dangerous around goals also...aaron davey could be if he was actually there...why was last season his worst? because he played too much footy in the wrong position, its killing me...3 or 4 less inside 50s than hawthorn yet 100000000 less goals!!! arghh!

I'm pretty sure we broke even in the clearances yesterday.

I'm pretty sure thats a useless stat. It's right up there with hitouts.

We were beaten in the clinches all day. The hawks run to advantage and linked up after they cleared the ball. we had no run or cohesion.

I'm pretty sure thats a useless stat. It's right up there with hitouts.

We were beaten in the clinches all day. The hawks run to advantage and linked up after they cleared the ball. we had no run or cohesion.

No we weren't - Contested ball was even, so were clearances. We were however, comprehensively thrashed in loose ball gets and contested marks. They ran harder, they ran faster and basically used the ball better than we did. Our skills were deplorable . No surprises there given that one member of the leadership group rather than pushing back off the mark chooses to try and spot up a team mate of one step and has the ball smothered and the Hawks clean up the spillage and kick the goal.

If you want a useless stat, how about Travis Johnstone's 9 effective disposals out of 20 (incl 6 Clangers) for the Lions - still got named in the Lions best though - go figure.

No we weren't - Contested ball was even, so were clearances. We were however, comprehensively thrashed in loose ball gets and contested marks. They ran harder, they ran faster and basically used the ball better than we did. Our skills were deplorable . No surprises there given that one member of the leadership group rather than pushing back off the mark chooses to try and spot up a team mate of one step and has the ball smothered and the Hawks clean up the spillage and kick the goal.

If you want a useless stat, how about Travis Johnstone's 9 effective disposals out of 20 (incl 6 Clangers) for the Lions - still got named in the Lions best though - go figure.

I understand the stats. What Im saying is that we hardly ever got clean ball out of a contest. The hawks would get the pill, use quick hands and release any number of players forward. If we won possession it was under more pressure and never clean and without the required runners to make something of it.

I find most stats these days pretty unsatisfactory when reviewing a game. Most mean sweet FA.

I understand the stats. What Im saying is that we hardly ever got clean ball out of a contest. The hawks would get the pill, use quick hands and release any number of players forward. If we won possession it was under more pressure and never clean and without the required runners to make something of it.

I find most stats these days pretty unsatisfactory when reviewing a game. Most mean sweet FA.

Having pace allows you to pressure your opponent, man-up better, move the ball with more purpose, not get caught flat-footed.

Of course getting clean first possessions is very important, but it does not eliminate the need for pace. That we have two quick players in our team, one who cannot dispose, the other who is hot and cold every week, is a real worry.

I understand the stats. What Im saying is that we hardly ever got clean ball out of a contest. The hawks would get the pill, use quick hands and release any number of players forward. If we won possession it was under more pressure and never clean and without the required runners to make something of it.

I find most stats these days pretty unsatisfactory when reviewing a game. Most mean sweet FA.

I don't disagree with that at all Tigger. We got enough first hands on the ball, we had enough forward fifties to win a game etc. What the stats don't show is the hand pass that goes over the team mates head standing three feet away, the 25 meter pass that misses a team mate by 10 meters and goes directly to an opponent, the failure to break even the most limp wristed of tackles. The problem with Stats is people try to draw some line through them to come up with something significant. Twenty years ago the team with the most possessions won the game of football, now it just means they're playing keepings off until they eventually turn it over.

He seems to have lost almost all his pace. I have no idea how or why, but it saddens me

I want the Davey of old. What we see now is just a shadow of the excitement machine of 2 or 3 years ago.

its hard to fly like an eagle when your playing with turkeys

Did we make a mistake with Davey, beefing him up over summer so he can play in the midfield, thereby reducing his speed?

I'm worried that we're too focused on getting him into the centre of the ground, even at the expense of his greatest asset, his speed.

He looked almost overweight yesterday, and yet when he was chasing down a player he could barely lay a tackle.

Was probably our biggest non-performer yesterday.

If ever he is struggling, the simplest thing we can do is chuck him at the feet of the FF. That is his natural position and he will always make something happen down there. I'm not convinced that he'll ever quite make it as a midfielder, and I would hate for him to end up like Brad Green (could have been a great forward, but is now just an average midfielder).

Our lack of speed all around the ground is depressing. We look like a team assembled in a senior centre.

Thats exactly right Jaded. Now that Davey is built up, he hasn't lost his speed, but his agility. Jones slimmed down, got rid of a little bit of muscle and look at the difference it made. Do the same thing with Davey and leave him in the forward line where he does his best work. But first of all, he needs to get rid of some muscle. He did look much too top heavy yesterday.

I would like to know why Davey doesn't want to tackle anymore. I haven't seen him do a rundown chase and tackle since 2006. There was one at the city end where he went for the strip instead of the tackle. If i'm coaching he gets dragged for that, you have to put on body pressure.

Rightly we are giving a serve to various players, coaches and administrators on these forums, such was the performance yesterday..............

Fact is everyone at the club (including supporters who don't have memberships and/or don't go where possible) have contributed to where we are at right now......

Fact is though, its round 1 and, if being semi logical, we knew coming into this season there was going to be some very trying times, but that is what happens when you are trying to forge a new CULTURE................which is what've needed.

All that said, I can live with some skill errors (mainly from the kids), I can live with some structure problems (because they were inherited by the old footy department) and I can live with our seeming lack of game plan (as the coaching staff are all new, players take a good 10-15 rounds to learn, look at Saints).............I can put up with these things FOR NOW..........

But at the heart of the issues we have right now is HEART!!!! Yes you need talent, atheletism etc, but this great game has always been about winning contests! AND THATS ALL ABOUT HEART!!! Turn the ball over, then you have to win it back. Win a stoppage, then you can play keepings off.........but everything stems from WINNING CONTESTS, which can only be done by those who WANT it more...........

Some players showed heart yesterday, some none................one of which is the topic of this post.......

Why has Davey gone unscathed on here??? I was at the game, and didn't see the TV, but my old man is in QLD atm and said that commentators highlighted SEVERAL times he didn't chase, didn't run the other way, didn't pick up a free bloke running past him........basically didn't care and that was in the first Q!!!! he had several chances to make contests, possible win a few tooo, but didn't!!!!.............is he a midfeilder??? Does he know how to play midfield (and not just cameo roles up the ground)??? How bout giving him some tagging roles on the Kerrs, Wests and Judds first so he can learn HOW to play as an elite midfielder...........otherwise send him back to the forward line, at least he chases there!!!

Too many without heart (Bruce etc have been called out plenty already, its Davey's turn now!).............and to all those who say 'just play youngsters' thats not the answer either.........play those who earn it, and continue to earn it via HEART and EFFORT, regardless of age.........thats how u build CULTURE!!!!!!!!!!!! Talent be damned, and after a few years of RUTHLESS selection, the talent will develop and the culture of what is expected of players is set.........

You used up Demonland's quota of dots.

why oh why isnt davey in the forward line...why???? he played his best footy in the forward line and you can tell when he is outplayed by his clone cyril rioli in his first game that he should be in the forward line because that is where the light, speedy goal sneaks play their best footy. alwyn davey is dangerous around goals also...aaron davey could be if he was actually there...why was last season his worst? because he played too much footy in the wrong position, its killing me...3 or 4 less inside 50s than hawthorn yet 100000000 less goals!!! arghh!

So did we actually have a crumber or goal sneak or someone on or closer to ground level up forward?

I mean I realise the ball never really got in there yesterday, but this is a common question that has been asked over the last year or so, and I was just curious.

Looks like he no longer cares.

Would trade him for his brother in a heartbeat. Which is sad because I think aaron is the better player.

I would like to know why Davey doesn't want to tackle anymore. I haven't seen him do a rundown chase and tackle since 2006. There was one at the city end where he went for the strip instead of the tackle. If i'm coaching he gets dragged for that, you have to put on body pressure.

Quite simple really...he was playing in the mid-field. He was stuffed running around in the engine room, so don't expect his "run from behind" tackles and speed like we have been accustomed to when he was sitting in the forward line.

Personally, I would prefer him back forward (is that English?), as we were sorely missing the pressure that he provides on the opposition defenders, the turnovers he creates and the goals he snares from crumbing.

Quite simple really...he was playing in the mid-field. He was stuffed running around in the engine room, so don't expect his "run from behind" tackles and speed like we have been accustomed to when he was sitting in the forward line.

Personally, I would prefer him back forward (is that English?), as we were sorely missing the pressure that he provides on the opposition defenders, the turnovers he creates and the goals he snares from crumbing.

Absolutely, George. I couldn't understand having Davey running around lost in the midfield while the forwardline was stacked with four talls and virtually no crumbers. So often we've tried to make midfielders out of forwards, normally with less than desired results. The pressure from the forwardline was unsurprisingly embarrassing yesterday without him in there.

I don't disagree with that at all Tigger. We got enough first hands on the ball, we had enough forward fifties to win a game etc. What the stats don't show is the hand pass that goes over the team mates head standing three feet away, the 25 meter pass that misses a team mate by 10 meters and goes directly to an opponent, the failure to break even the most limp wristed of tackles. The problem with Stats is people try to draw some line through them to come up with something significant. Twenty years ago the team with the most possessions won the game of football, now it just means they're playing keepings off until they eventually turn it over.

Agreed.

Also the forward line was woeful. No movement and no pressure on the ball carriers when the ball went to ground. The number of times we went forward, only to give the ball to te Hawks to run it the length of the ground for a goal...

Seriously, Does any one know the stat that tells how many Hawk goals started from the Melbourne forward line?

Quite simple really...he was playing in the mid-field. He was stuffed running around in the engine room, so don't expect his "run from behind" tackles and speed like we have been accustomed to when he was sitting in the forward line.

Personally, I would prefer him back forward (is that English?), as we were sorely missing the pressure that he provides on the opposition defenders, the turnovers he creates and the goals he snares from crumbing.

The lack of a crumbing forward was one of the more glaring deficiencies of yesterday. If DB persists with Davey in the midfield then he needs to look at this issue as well.

Personally I agree that he should play forward occasionally pushing up the ground, his skills and creativity are much better under less pressure.

The bulk wouldn't effect Davey's speed the endurance training would, looks to me they have focused on his endurance to get him to spend more time in the midfield and he has lost speed or he is injured.

Stats are rubbish, but one stat the should be used is sheppards or blocks I saw Moloney do it twice one was a free kick and that was it. We got our hands on the footy at stoppages but instead of creating space for the ball carrier we let them get tackled. The Hawks did it all day even 50m of the ball to help the leading player.

So did we actually have a crumber or goal sneak or someone on or closer to ground level up forward?

I mean I realise the ball never really got in there yesterday, but this is a common question that has been asked over the last year or so, and I was just curious.

Weetra was there to play Davey's forward role.

Weetra was there to play Davey's forward role.

Really ?!!!