It is no surprise that Fremantle is struggling this year after adding a couple of troublemakers from other clubs. After last year they looked a real chance this season.

I hope our club avoids the temptation to trade or draft any troublemakers. It is like bringing a virus into the rooms.

It is no surprise that Fremantle is struggling this year after adding a couple of troublemakers from other clubs. After last year they looked a real chance this season.

I hope our club avoids the temptation to trade or draft any troublemakers. It is like bringing a virus into the rooms.

And how would you define "troublemakers" Redleg?

Does Michael Voss qualify in view of the recent charges laid against him?

And how would you define "troublemakers" Redleg?

Does Michael Voss qualify in view of the recent charges laid against him?

He might. I would suggest a troublemaker is a player who has a history of causing trouble at his former club. If you would like some examples : Angwin, Norman, Fevola, Didak, Cousins, Farmer, Kerr, Lawrence, Everitt, Gehrig, Carey etc.

Is Sylvia a "troublemaker" for hanging out with Didak and passing out in that club?

Is Sylvia a "troublemaker" for hanging out with Didak and passing out in that club?

not a troublemaker...just an 'idiot' on the night... hopefully he's learnt !!!

not a troublemaker...just an 'idiot' on the night... hopefully he's learnt !!!

dont forget that 4 time premiership playing trouble maker - Martin Pike

He might.

Of the players you mentioned as troublemakers, two of them were with Voss on the night of the alleged incident. Shame that evidence can't be used in his defence of reckless stupidity.

regarding voss: if the evidences suggests this is more than a one off then yes. but if he got sucked in this easily it suggests to me that maybe he is not yet mature enough to hold a senior coaching position.

It's a difficult one, but it wouldn't be the first time that someone has been chosen to coach who has had a 'colourfull' history. Leigh Matthews resume is probably as 'colourfull' as anyone else's but he has turned into one of the really respected coaches.

As for players with bad histories, if a club has good values and a strong leadership team then a player like Pike can still make a good contribution ala the kangaroos and Lions, but unfortunately at Melbourne I don't think our current leaders are in that class (comparing them to blokes like Archer). It would have to be on a case by case situation with a demonstration that they have sorted themselves out or at the very least desperately want to.

i think that matthews age when he became a coach should be noted. he wasnt one year out of the game and still punching people in night clubs and on the turps with other current players was he?

Matthews' thuggery was more an 'on field' than 'off field' issue.

Matthews' thuggery was more an 'on field' than 'off field' issue.

exactly. i think there is a difference. while i am not excusing matthews for cowardly behind the play assaults, and i am not claiming that these acts are examples of footy 'toughness', i think there is a difference between some one who is undisciplined and aggressive on the field to someone who hits someone at a night club, unprovoked. voss needs a couple of years to cool off so he is not buddy buddy with current players still.

how old was matthews when he first coached? and how long had he been out of the game for?

I seem to recall he retired as a player for the Hawks in '85 after playing 332 games. Then walked straight into the senior coaching position for the Filth in '86.

Voss needs a couple of years to grow up.

Not that he is immature, but he should allow himself the time to get the 'going out drinking with players or ex players' lifestyle out of his system.

I for one don't think any player in their right mind on any list is going to heed a word he says about self control and setting an example if he were coaching next year, and that's not the way you want to start your coaching career. It could only end in disaster for both parties.

Go Dees

i cant question you alan, i was born in 86. what did people say about matthews coaching then? or was 'image' not as important as it is now? the behaviour of players should have tightened up a bit you would think.

Sorry Deanox, I was posting as you replied.

In my opinion he was one of the great modern day footballers and ahead in his time. A natural on field leader.

His coaching record speaks for itself. As coaches go, at Vic Park he was as green as they come but achieved what other more experienced and highly rated coaches couldn't (see Cahill, Rose etc)

With one of the most ordinary playing lists going around, he helmed Collingwood to their first flag in 32 years.

As for player behaviour, other people may wish to talk about some infamous 'off field' indiscretions whilst he was there.

Names such as Banks, Millane, Manson, etc come to mind. He wasn't entirely innocent either. Could've been a catalyst for his departure.

i cant question you alan, i was born in 86. what did people say about matthews coaching then? or was 'image' not as important as it is now? the behaviour of players should have tightened up a bit you would think.

It certainly wasn't unusual for a coach to be appointed that way at the time. Matthews had his moments of thuggery, but he was also a bona fide champion... he could dish it out, but he also knew how to take it... super competitive and put the wind up many opponents with his fierce demeanour.

I don't think you can classify someone as a 'troublemaker' when they make one mistake.

They are only a troublemaker if they continually stuff up.

Everyone deserves a second chance, if they didn't, Neita wouldn't be our captain, would he now?

Voss is not a troublemaker because he got drunk and punched someone. He is human.

And I agree that you need a very strong club around you to change players. Sydney did a great job with Hall, and Brisbane with Pike, but in most cases, those two would have failed at almost any other club.

I don't think you can classify someone as a 'troublemaker' when they make one mistake.

They are only a troublemaker if they continually stuff up.

Everyone deserves a second chance, if they didn't, Neita wouldn't be our captain, would he now?

Voss is not a troublemaker because he got drunk and punched someone. He is human.

And I agree that you need a very strong club around you to change players. Sydney did a great job with Hall, and Brisbane with Pike, but in most cases, those two would have failed at almost any other club.

Neitz was accosted by a number of bouncers getting into a cab FCS. He was leaving a venue and thank god he took a taxi. Voss's situation is worse than Neitz. It was not human. It was nasty, inept and atrocious behaviour. He can tell the Magistrate how human he is.

Hall took the issue about his character and his performance on himself and Sydney gave him the opportunity.

Pike survived because he played AFL and behaved like Pike does in relative anonymity in Brisbane. When you win a flag or two it repressess a few neanderthal behaviours for a short time. he would not have survived in the Southern states as three clubs would attest to.

Neitz was accosted by a number of bouncers getting into a cab FCS. He was leaving a venue and thank god he took a taxi. Voss's situation is worse than Neitz.

You don't really believe that, do you?

Neita stuffed up while representing the MFC. Voss stuffed up while representing nobody.

Neita was escorted out of the premises for drunken behaviour, and rumors were rife that he got physical with the bouncers. Voss punched some idiot who threw a ball at his mate's head.

Both incidents are as bad as each other, and completely irrelevant when you look at the big picture as both have enough credit to slip-up once.

Neitz was accosted by a number of bouncers getting into a cab FCS. He was leaving a venue and thank god he took a taxi. Voss's situation is worse than Neitz. It was not human. It was nasty, inept and atrocious behaviour. He can tell the Magistrate how human he is.

Hall took the issue about his character and his performance on himself and Sydney gave him the opportunity.

Pike survived because he played AFL and behaved like Pike does in relative anonymity in Brisbane. When you win a flag or two it repressess a few neanderthal behaviours for a short time. he would not have survived in the Southern states as three clubs would attest to.

Picking a Pool Ball up & throwing it @ another blokes head generaly ends up in nasty, Inept & atrocious behaviour.

Vossy's error of judgement was the company he was keeping that night, his reaction to what unfolded seemed

perfectly justified to me.

Picking a Pool Ball up & throwing it @ another blokes head generaly ends up in nasty, Inept & atrocious behaviour.

Vossy's error of judgement was the company he was keeping that night, his reaction to what unfolded seemed

perfectly justified to me.

Picking a Pool Ball up & throwing it @ another blokes head does not generaly end up in nasty, Inept & atrocious behaviour. It is nasty, Inept & atrocious behaviour. That goon was rightly charged.

But how does that justify Voss at a later moment king hitting him? Voss was rightly charged by police.

If Voss was only keeping the company with certain people, then he would not have had any issue.

If you think Voss is perfectly justified..make sure you have a good lawyer and throwing in some counselling too.

You don't really believe that, do you?

Neita stuffed up while representing the MFC. Voss stuffed up while representing nobody.

Neita was escorted out of the premises for drunken behaviour, and rumors were rife that he got physical with the bouncers. Voss punched some idiot who threw a ball at his mate's head.

Both incidents are as bad as each other.....

Oh dear

Its not a matter of who they were representing that provides any justification or mitigation.

They are not Jaded. And your reference to brain fades and being human is a shallow treatment. I just dont see how Voss's act of assault is somehow "justifed" by the trenchant stupdity of someone else therowing a billiard pool. One dumb act does not justify a further dumb act.

Picking a Pool Ball up & throwing it @ another blokes head does not generaly end up in nasty, Inept & atrocious behaviour. It is nasty, Inept & atrocious behaviour. That goon was rightly charged.

But how does that justify Voss at a later moment king hitting him? Voss was rightly charged by police.

If Voss was only keeping the company with certain people, then he would not have had any issue.

If you think Voss is perfectly justified..make sure you have a good lawyer and throwing in some counselling too.

Don't agree with everything you say Rhino, but in this case a perfect summation.

They are not Jaded. And your reference to brain fades and being human is a shallow treatment. I just dont see how Voss's act of assault is somehow "justifed" by the trenchant stupdity of someone else therowing a billiard pool. One dumb act does not justify a further dumb act.

Tell me you wouldn't act in the same way if someone tried to hurt your friend. I know I would (if only I could throw such a good punch ).

And you don't know whether Voss and Black planned to hang out with the rest of the crew, or whether they all found themselves in the same place. There were some Swans players there too, and as disgusting as that place is, it is a very popular joint.

They may have ended up in the same place without any intention.