46 minutes ago, DeeSpencer said:

Because there’s not actually anything to discuss and I still can’t work out the contention. 

I enjoy the level of self indulgence but I have nothing to add. I’m delightfully stumped. 

Yet there’s several of us somehow engaged in a discussion.

You say you have nothing to add, here’s an idea… [censored] off to a thread where you feel you have something to add. Even better… stay permanently stumped.

 

 

This thread is all very well and good, but it doesn’t mention anything about plateauing over the last 2 years. 
By that I maintain the Gameplan stayed the same. 
Mass entries into the Forwardline with very average conversion rates, 2 wasted years imo 

We are stacked with a very talented list who did not convert well enough 

It better look different in 2024….

14 minutes ago, Sir Why You Little said:

This thread is all very well and good, but it doesn’t mention anything about plateauing over the last 2 years. 
By that I maintain the Gameplan stayed the same. 
Mass entries into the Forwardline with very average conversion rates, 2 wasted years imo 

We are stacked with a very talented list who did not convert well enough 

It better look different in 2024….

You left out the obligatory “straight sets exits” bit. After all, it was you who said every single post on DL should be prefaced with that.

Edited January 31, 20241 yr by WalkingCivilWar
Was gonna search for SWYL’s post but quite frankly cbf

50 minutes ago, Macca said:

I'm not surprised you don't get it as your way of posting is quite confrontational and you rarely prefer to discuss matters in a mature manner

You're the shock-jock of demonland but each to their own. It takes all types and I'm all for free speach

So how you post doesn't particularly bother me nor do I ever learn much from your utterings

You like to stir the pot and if you don't see yourself that way, I'd be surprised

As for being self indulgent 

Pot Kettle Black

That’s putting it mildly, Macca. I’d say something like “aggressively belligerent” is closer to the mark. 

28 minutes ago, Sir Why You Little said:

This thread is all very well and good, but it doesn’t mention anything about plateauing over the last 2 years. 
By that I maintain the Gameplan stayed the same. 
Mass entries into the Forwardline with very average conversion rates, 2 wasted years imo 

We are stacked with a very talented list who did not convert well enough 

It better look different in 2024….

Many have made mention of the forward line entry issue 

So from all accounts, according to how we are training, the issue is being addressed with faster and more direct movement of the ball in the 13 on 13 scratch practice

Not a lot of bombing either being reported by the Demonland scouts

So we've built a terrific list and continue to improve on the list but it doesn't end there.  We're not going to magically just win because we have loads of talent

Our departed midfield coach (Yze) and forward line coach (Stafford) are/were accountable.  As well as the head coach

In fact, if we leave Yze & Stafford out of the discussion, what roles do/did they have?  

The way I see it is that it's a MC issue in a think-tank type operation. 

i.e. The coaching group make the decisions

And we (they) need to change tack

Edited January 31, 20241 yr by Macca

12 minutes ago, WalkingCivilWar said:

You left out the obligatory “straight sets exits” bit. After all, it was you who said every single post on DL should be prefaced with that.

I am talking over a 2 year Period. Not just September 

Maybe you should broaden your horizons a little, all has not been rosy inside the walls of The MFC over a period of time, not broken, but certain things do need to change. Now i know you won’t believe that, which is irrelevant to me, but i will stand by what i say. 
We should never have lost to Carlton when Curnow was held so strongly. 

The list must get mentally tougher and demand higher standards from Teammates…

2 Cups gone, 1 of those to our mortal enemy 

11 minutes ago, WalkingCivilWar said:

That’s putting it mildly, Macca. I’d say something like “aggressively belligerent” is closer to the mark. 

I wouldn't go that far but I'm not sure DS is bothered with any pushback

He actually posts quite well most of the time and he knows his footy but then there are the 'moments' haha

Most of the time it doesn't bother me but the thrust of the thread leans heavily towards the club getting it's act together and might be a bit too positive for those constantly looking for fault

In other words, it's difficult to come in with the whinging

And I knew that beforehand.  So the reaction does not surprise me (with certain types) 

As previously stated, some people are only happy when they've got something to complain about

And the usual suspects arrived at the scene on point

They've got nothing to complain about so they attack the notion of the thread

1 minute ago, Sir Why You Little said:

I am talking over a 2 year Period. Not just September 

Maybe you should broaden your horizons a little, all has not been rosy inside the walls of The MFC over a period of time, not broken, but certain things do need to change. Now i know you won’t believe that, which is irrelevant to me, but i will stand by what i say. 
We should never have lost to Carlton when Curnow was held so strongly. 

The list must get mentally tougher and demand higher standards from Teammates…

2 Cups gone, 1 of those to our mortal enemy 

You manage to weave this [censored] into any and every thread, regardless of what the thread is about. Maybe you should start a dedicated thread entirely to do with two wasted years etc., etc. That way, folks who are sick to death of hearing it over and over again can avoid hearing it over and over again by simply not opening your thread.

I need to broaden my horizons? I need to realise all is not rosy within the walls of the MFC? Let me tell you this: I’d rather live in my delusional land of sunshine and lollipops and rainbows than to wallow in abject misery and drag everyone else down with repeated reminders of what happened in the past. 

Just now, Macca said:

I wouldn't go that far but I'm not sure DS is bothered with any pushback

He actually posts quite well most of the time and he knows his footy but then there are the 'moments' haha

Most of the time it doesn't bother me but the thrust of the thread leans heavily towards the club getting it's act together and might be a bit too positive for those constantly looking for fault

In other words, it's difficult to come in with the whinging

And I knew that beforehand.  So the reaction does not surprise me (with certain types) 

As previously stated, some people are only happy when they've got something to complain about

And the usual suspects arrived at the scene on point

They've got nothing to complain about so they attack the notion of the thread

Sad, sad little people. 

3 minutes ago, WalkingCivilWar said:

Sad, sad little people. 

And Demonland has been very quiet over the last 2 months.  The optimists & realists have left the building (they'll be back)

But I can't say I blame them for having a sabbatical.  Constantly engaging with the miserable joyless types can wear you down

It's like a Monty Python sketch in this place

The Department of Miserable Pessimists vs The Department of Super Optimists

John Cleese & Michael Palin as Heads of the Departments

https://www.foxsports.com.au/news/paul-roos-slams-the-negative-environment-at-melbourne-on-fox-footys-afl-360/news-story/05e0324699b588e790ac5f4cb2cd293e

https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/negativity-comes-from-melbourne-fans-not-club-coach-paul-roos-20150825-gj7jt6.html

 

1 hour ago, WalkingCivilWar said:

Yet there’s several of us somehow engaged in a discussion.

You say you have nothing to add, here’s an idea… [censored] off to a thread where you feel you have something to add. Even better… stay permanently stumped.

 

 

It's healthy and okay to disagree with people opinions on here even if it doesn't add zero value to the thread.

What's not okay is telling anyone to [censored] off somewhere else just because it doesn't suit you or others narratives. I know you're big advocate on people on here not getting personal on players on this forum (certainly a good reminder from time to time) if you'redoing the exact same with members on this forum.

DS just calls it as it sees it and some people either love it or hate it. I've certainly disagreed with a lot of his opinions over the years but I also know he adds a lot of value to 'Land' and thoroughly enjoy his training reports especially. 

@Macca whilst I'm still trying to work out the guts of this discussion, my guess is the list management team have a thorough long term plan in place which is to continue to remain as competitive as we can without bombing out. That means continuing to add value through free agency and stacking up with talent.

I think you need to have a fine balance otherwise we'll end up falling off the cliff like Hawthorn, West Coast and even Richmond are now with their current rebuild.

Geelong and Sydney have been the absolute masters in setting the benchmark on what good list management is all about with being able to stay in the top 8 contention for thr past 10 years and a bit.

8 minutes ago, dazzledavey36 said:

 

@Macca whilst I'm still trying to work out the guts of this discussion, my guess is the list management team have a thorough long term plan in place which is to continue to remain as competitive as we can without bombing out. That means continuing to add value through free agency and stacking up with talent.

I think you need to have a fine balance otherwise we'll end up falling off the cliff like Hawthorn, West Coast and even Richmond are now with their current rebuild.

Geelong and Sydney have been the absolute masters in setting the benchmark on what good list management is all about with being able to stay in the top 8 contention for thr past 10 years and a bit.

One of the points of the thread is to highlight the total contrast of how we went about recruiting prior to 2012 and then from 2012 onwards

It's been a remarkable turnaround and to be honest, I never thought we could actually recruit so well

Taylor is a genius in my view and we need to make sure he doesn't get poached (we poached him from Collingwood) 

But as I pointed out to Wyl, having a great list needs to be accompanied by a top game plan.  And we have our issues with regards to a functioning forward line

Defence & midfield personnel is very good along with our zone defence, attack on the ball and contested ball.  Not too many issues there although we will have to replace May sooner or later

And you are right about the Cats & Swans so we can stay at the top if we keep making sound decisions.  But because we've got Taylor, those sound decisions can continue

In years to come we might be talking about that plane trip to Esperance that Taylor made to meet up with Tholstrup

I see Petracca gave Kolt the don't argue at practice.  I like that as it sends a message.  Let's see how the kid responds

I reckon he plays against the Swans.  Wouldn't surprise me if Windsor debuts soon after

2 minutes ago, Macca said:

One of the points of the thread is to highlight the total contrast of how we went about recruiting prior to 2012 and then from 2012 onwards

It's been a remarkable turnaround and to be honest, I never thought we could actually recruit so well

Taylor is a genius in my view and we need to make sure he doesn't get poached (we poached him from Collingwood) 

But as I pointed out to Wyl, having a great list needs to be accompanied by a top game plan.  And we have our issues with regards to a functioning forward line

Defence & midfield personnel is very good along with our zone defence, attack on the ball and contested ball.  Not too many issues there although we will have to replace May sooner or later

And you are right about the Cats & Swans so we can stay at the top if we keep making sound decisions.  But because we've got Taylor, those sound decisions can continue

In years to come we might be talking about that plane trip to Esperance that Taylor made to meet up with Tholstrup

I see Petracca gave Kolt the don't argue at practice.  I like that as it sends a message.  Let's see how the kid responds

I reckon he plays against the Swans.  Wouldn't surprise me if Windsor debuts soon after

I think a lot of it does come down to development more so then the pick itself.

There is a general feeling that during the Bailey era, we recruited based based on speed and athleticism because one of Dean Bailey's strengths was that whilst his record was sub par, he was actually ahead of the game with where the game was going in terms of moving the footy with such speed and slingshot off half back. No coincidence that the likes of Hawthorn, Richmond and Collingwood have had success over the journey purely based on game plan that was build off quick ball movement and still is in today's game with Collingwood being elite at that.

We recruited the right players at the time but our development was very sub par and it was very evident. 

You put a Jack Watts, Sam Blease and Jack Trengrove in a Hawthorn and Geelong jumper at the time and they would have absolutely thrived.

Thankfully, no development issues with us. Actually, now there's simply no excuses. 

37 minutes ago, dazzledavey36 said:

I think a lot of it does come down to development more so then the pick itself.

There is a general feeling that during the Bailey era, we recruited based based on speed and athleticism because one of Dean Bailey's strengths was that whilst his record was sub par, he was actually ahead of the game with where the game was going in terms of moving the footy with such speed and slingshot off half back. No coincidence that the likes of Hawthorn, Richmond and Collingwood have had success over the journey purely based on game plan that was build off quick ball movement and still is in today's game with Collingwood being elite at that.

We recruited the right players at the time but our development was very sub par and it was very evident. 

You put a Jack Watts, Sam Blease and Jack Trengrove in a Hawthorn and Geelong jumper at the time and they would have absolutely thrived.

Thankfully, no development issues with us. Actually, now there's simply no excuses. 

Yes but our contested ball back then was below par.  We were playing an outside game with very few extractors at the stoppages

Bruise free?  There was a lot of truth to that jibe.  I was never a Bailey fan as the list he helped build was far too inexperienced.  Bailey was the coach so the development was part of his job as well.  Another fail

He was one of those coaches who you were either all in with or the opposite.  

Later on the Hawks, Tigers & Pies were all hard at it with regards to contested ball.  We weren't and I thought we were quite soft in those years.  The 2-way running that came into the sport back then was virtually non existent at the Demons

The forward press that emerged during that time was another area that we failed to execute

We had a lot of issues and history tells us that our overall recruiting was woeful

Mind you, Neeld was even worse so that whole period was just a nightmare

Edited January 31, 20241 yr by Macca

Good thread, the only thing I've missed Macca (and I admit to skimming some of the thread, especially the moaning) is the bit about recruiting Goodwin. Roos has now managed a transition twice, both have been winners. If this isn't demonstration of 'culture' as a factor in success I don't know what is. Very healthy ego's at footy clubs, (Roos not exactly a wall flower either) so mad props for this aspect to Roos transformation of Melbourne. And apart from Goodwin I thought picking out Daniel Cross was huge for the club in terms of training standards, still wish he was with us.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-09-18/demons-appoint-goodwin-to-coaching-panel/5753060

16 minutes ago, DEE fence said:

Good thread, the only thing I've missed Macca (and I admit to skimming some of the thread, especially the moaning) is the bit about recruiting Goodwin. Roos has now managed a transition twice, both have been winners. If this isn't demonstration of 'culture' as a factor in success I don't know what is. Very healthy ego's at footy clubs, (Roos not exactly a wall flower either) so mad props for this aspect to Roos transformation of Melbourne. And apart from Goodwin I thought picking out Daniel Cross was huge for the club in terms of training standards, still wish he was with us.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-09-18/demons-appoint-goodwin-to-coaching-panel/5753060

Well yeah, and the AFL stepping in placing PJ as the CEO before we secured Roos was another massive change in direction

PJ then pursues Roos like there's no tomorrow and refused to give up on the idea.  Thank you, Peter Jackson

Another huge sliding doors moment was the Swans not releasing Stuart Dew as we had him earmarked to take over from Roos

Do we win the flag if Stuie Dew coaches us?  Who knows? 

I'm reminded that Goodwin's mantra coming in to the top job was 'Fearless Football' and if a measurement of that is a hard at it attitude and contested ball, then he succeeded with that mantra

Would Stuie Dew have gone in that same direction? (Fearless Football)

 

Edited January 31, 20241 yr by Macca

We really were coming from a long way back in 2014. The list was like a terrible haircut and needed some serious hacking. 

I'm not sure there were many others who would have been up for this job and I'm sure even Roos had moments where he wondered what he signed up for. While it wasn't glamourous I believe this was one of the most important periods in the football club's history. 

11 hours ago, dazzledavey36 said:

 

What's not okay is telling anyone to [censored] off somewhere else just because it doesn't suit you or others narratives.

… this from someone who once told me to stick to posting in the banner thread.

Macca introduced a topic for discourse. Of the first 10 posts, two of them were questioning the necessity of it. That’s straight up nastiness.

*sigh* everyone/entitled/opinion blah, blah, blah but posting purely to opine that a thread is unnecessary (which btw is not true) is just not on.

Nuff sed right? I apologise to Macca and the other posters for straying off-topic. Especially when the topic is appropriate and very interesting. 

8 minutes ago, WalkingCivilWar said:

… this from someone who once told me to stick to posting in the banner thread.

Macca introduced a topic for discourse. Of the first 10 posts, two of them were questioning the necessity of it. That’s straight up nastiness.

*sigh* everyone/entitled/opinion blah, blah, blah but posting purely to opine that a thread is unnecessary (which btw is not true) is just not on.

Nuff sed right? I apologise to Macca and the other posters for straying off-topic. Especially when the topic is appropriate and very interesting. 

In retaliation to you saying some nasty things about me as well. I'm staying out of all that stuff this year and keeping it footy related.

I personally disagree with the whole nastiness thing and I think Macca even acknowledged that.

No one got personal with him, just question the exact main context of the thread. @Macca respectfully explained in depth around the point he is trying to make and can certainly see the point in what he was making out.

I would like to think that the discussion continued more footy related and respectful.

The other part that should remain a focus (at the club) is to not make the same sort of mistakes again.  *Learnings*

North Melbourne obviously didn't take note when they embarked on not replacing experience with experience.  Too many young players in the actual starting 23

Again, they went too young and then ended up losing game after game after game.  Until it became embarrassing

It reached a point where they needed handouts (draft picks) Yet, the problem was their own doing.  Many would argue that is was almost a carbon copy on what we did.  Except I don't believe either club is or was on dripfeed ... that was the exaggeration  

Whilst others here might fret over a few umpiring decisions or other such trivialities, I'm far more concerned with making sure that Jason Taylor is secured for the future

1 minute ago, Macca said:

The other part that should remain a focus (at the club) is to not make the same sort of mistakes again.  *Learnings*

North Melbourne obviously didn't take note when they embarked on not replacing experience with experience.  Too many young players in the actual starting 23

Again, they went too young and then ended up losing game after game after game.  Until it became embarrassing

It reached a point where they needed handouts (draft picks) Yet, the problem was their own doing.  Many would argue that is was almost a carbon copy on what we did.  Except I don't believe either club is or was on dripfeed ... that was the exaggeration  

Whilst others here might fret over a few umpiring decisions or other such trivialities, I'm far more concerned with making sure that Jason Taylor is secured for the future

JT is a genius. He deserves every bit of praise he receives. He is one reason why we won’t need to accept the dreaded re-build that hitherto seemed inevitable.

 At a Gosch’s session a few weeks ago I asked him if I could get a pic with him. He asked me why him. He was surprised and probs a little embarrassed when I told him that imho he’s the most valuable person at our Club. The two men with him at the time teased him a little about the selfie request which only served to make him even more embarrassed. So now I’ve got a pic of me and a red-faced JT 😂

8 minutes ago, WalkingCivilWar said:

JT is a genius. He deserves every bit of praise he receives. He is one reason why we won’t need to accept the dreaded re-build that hitherto seemed inevitable.

 At a Gosch’s session a few weeks ago I asked him if I could get a pic with him. He asked me why him. He was surprised and probs a little embarrassed when I told him that imho he’s the most valuable person at our Club. The two men with him at the time teased him a little about the selfie request which only served to make him even more embarrassed. So now I’ve got a pic of me and a red-faced JT 😂

Yeah, we don't know a lot about Jason as he is more in the background.  I'm intrigued on how we managed to get him from the Pies as they wouldn't have wanted to lose him

And Eddie didn't let him go easily as he wouldn't release him from his contract until it expired at the end of 2012

The other point is when we lost Burgess at the end of the 2021 season.  Was it a coincidence that we ran out of legs in 2022? It wasn't injuries, that happened last year.   And that's not meant as a knock on Griffiths

On 31/01/2024 at 20:57, DeeSpencer said:

Because there’s not actually anything to discuss and I still can’t work out the contention. 

I enjoy the level of self indulgence but I have nothing to add. I’m delightfully stumped. 

Stay stumped forever.