Aus Bush Fires

[hardtack 10,537]

52 minutes ago, JakovichScissorKick said:

https://www.theaustralian.com.au/nation/bushfires-firebugs-fuelling-crisis-asarson-arresttollhits183/news-story/52536dc9ca9bb87b7c76d36ed1acf53f

Almost 200 arrested.

The country is on fire due to arsonists.   The climate change cult will conveniently ignore that though.

Just as you climate change deniers will conveniently take everything that Murdoch chooses to publish, as gospel.  And I'm referring to the Murdoch press who relegated the fires to page 4 in favour of a picnic races day last week (oh, and you have to love this bit: "The Shoalhaven fires were lit between July and September last year, with Kempsey recording 27 deliberately lit fires, NSW Bureau of Crime and Statistics and Research data shows." - nothing to do with the current fires).

Approximately half of the fires each year are caused by a combination of human activity and lightning strikes (the latter being attributed the the largest of the current fires). The other issue is prevailing weather conditions and fires spreading through cinder attacks.

A report from a source that stands to gain nothing through bias:
https://globalnews.ca/news/6366259/what-causes-australia-wildfires/

Edited January 7, 2020 by hardtack

[dieter 3,325]

21 minutes ago, hardtack said:

Just as you climate change deniers will conveniently take everything that Murdoch chooses to publish, as gospel.  And I'm referring to the Murdoch press who relegated the fires to page 4 in favour of a picnic races day last week (oh, and you have to love this bit: "The Shoalhaven fires were lit between July and September last year, with Kempsey recording 27 deliberately lit fires, NSW Bureau of Crime and Statistics and Research data shows." - nothing to do with the current fires).

Approximately half of the fires each year are caused by a combination of human activity and lightning strikes (the latter being attributed the the largest of the current fires). The other issue is prevailing weather conditions and fires spreading through cinder attacks.

A report from a source that stands to gain nothing through bias:
https://globalnews.ca/news/6366259/what-causes-australia-wildfires/

Unfortunately, Mr hardtrack,  we are trying to have a conversation with people whose minds are watertight and closed. I have a neighbour like that. He told me two weeks ago - he is a Herald Sun/Australian/Andrew Bolt fan - that Climate Change is rubbish. He's a terrific neighbour, a very decent human being and I've always liked him. However...

In other words, what I'm trying to say is we're wasting our time arguing with people who have beliefs which go against the grain of scientific evidence. Copernicus had the same problem...

[Jara 1,153]

1 hour ago, JakovichScissorKick said:

https://www.theaustralian.com.au/nation/bushfires-firebugs-fuelling-crisis-asarson-arresttollhits183/news-story/52536dc9ca9bb87b7c76d36ed1acf53f

Almost 200 arrested.

The country is on fire due to arsonists.   The climate change cult will conveniently ignore that though.

Not ignoring at all. There are lots of ignition causes - but fires are all about the conditions. Global warming heats things up and dries them out. Primes the country for the fire.

 

Anyway, didn't McCormack say it was all due to spontaneously combusting cow poo?

[dieter 3,325]

1 minute ago, Jara said:

Not ignoring at all. There are lots of ignition causes - but fires are all about the conditions. Global warming heats things up and dries them out. Primes the country for the fire.

 

Anyway, didn't McCormack say it was all due to spontaneously combusting cow poo?

Something like that. Another 'scientific' fact for climate deniers, no doubt...The mixture of cow poo and an arsonist is a very combustible recipe for total bushfire devastation. Discuss....

[Demonstone 22,479]

The stages of climate change denialism:

1.  It's not happening / it's a leftie/greenie conspiracy / the scientists are making it up / it's just normal weather changes.

2.  Well yes, it's changing but it's always changed and it's nothing to do with us / what acceleration of change?

3.  Maybe it does have something to do with us, but it's too late to do anything now / other countries are worse.

[Jara 1,153]

4 minutes ago, demonstone said:

The stages of climate change denialism:

1.  It's not happening / it's a leftie/greenie conspiracy / the scientists are making it up / it's just normal weather changes.

2.  Well yes, it's changing but it's always changed and it's nothing to do with us / what acceleration of change?

3.  Maybe it does have something to do with us, but it's too late to do anything now / other countries are worse.

or all three at once and then their heads explode

[bing181 9,218]

5 hours ago, JakovichScissorKick said:

Almost 200 arrested.

The country is on fire due to arsonists.  

Yes, almost 200 charged (not arrested, but heh, we know that you're playing fast and loose with the facts), but not charged with arson, charged with "fire offences". Only 24 have been charged with arson. Most are for infringements to total fire bans and "discarding a lighted match or cigarette".

https://www.smh.com.au/national/nsw-fires-legal-action-taken-against-183-people-this-bushfire-season-20200106-p53p97.html

And to add, this from a Gippsland News reporter:

"The Victorian Premier has told ABC Gippsland that none of the bushfires in Victoria have been confirmed to be deliberately lit. This fits with what police told me on Saturday - just one man has been charged with attempting to light a fire."

Edited January 7, 2020 by bing181

[bing181 9,218]

4 hours ago, Jara said:

There are lots of ignition causes

Exactly - all of which are more or less constant from one season to the next. The one variable that *has* changed is the climate with these extremes of heat and dryness, and that's what's acting as an accelerant here.

Which of course is the main point: arson or whatever only impacts how fires *start*. What we're seeing isn't because more fires are being lit, it's because once lit, they're just taking off at intensities we've never experienced before. Due to ... (etc. etc.)

[dieter 3,325]

37 minutes ago, bing181 said:

Exactly - all of which are more or less constant from one season to the next. The one variable that *has* changed is the climate with these extremes of heat and dryness, and that's what's acting as an accelerant here.

Which of course is the main point: arson or whatever only impacts how fires *start*. What we're seeing isn't because more fires are being lit, it's because once lit, they're just taking off at intensities we've never experienced before. Due to ... (etc. etc.)

Mate, mate, can't be right, I didn't read it in the Herald Sun, nor have I heard it from the infallible Font, Mr Bolt, Andrew....

[Jara 1,153]

2 hours ago, bing181 said:

Yes, almost 200 charged (not arrested, but heh, we know that you're playing fast and loose with the facts), but not charged with arson, charged with "fire offences". Only 24 have been charged with arson. Most are for infringements to total fire bans and "discarding a lighted match or cigarette".

https://www.smh.com.au/national/nsw-fires-legal-action-taken-against-183-people-this-bushfire-season-20200106-p53p97.html

And to add, this from a Gippsland News reporter:

"The Victorian Premier has told ABC Gippsland that none of the bushfires in Victoria have been confirmed to be deliberately lit. This fits with what police told me on Saturday - just one man has been charged with attempting to light a fire."

Thanks, Bing. I was wondering about that (I only saw the headline from The Oz quoted by our colleague Jakovitch) - I guessed it was something like that - I've seen quite a few people charged over the years - mostly just dimwits who don't even know what a TFB is - or people who know nothing about fire - burn waste and don't realize it will still be smouldering the next day. We always report them to the police these days. You also get kids around poorer housing estates (the fires I saw last week were believed to be in the latter category) - the real mad arsonists (see Chloe Hooper's book The Arsonist) aren't that common.

 

I've noticed a lot of coverage about this recently (eg on 3AW this evening) . Overall, I suspect it's just another weapon in the deniers' armoury for deflecting the blame - ie it's not climate change, it's arsonists - or exploding cow poo - or greenies.

[bing181 9,218]

45 minutes ago, Jara said:

Thanks, Bing. I was wondering about that (I only saw the headline from The Oz quoted by our colleague Jakovitch) ...

Actually, it turns out that many of them haven't even been charged, but have been issued with warnings. But that's how the press works, especially in Australia.

Police article here, if anyone's interested.

"Police take legal action against more than 180 people so far during 2019/2020 bushfire season"

https://www.police.nsw.gov.au/news/news_article?sq_content_src=%2BdXJsPWh0dHBzJTNBJTJGJTJGZWJpenByZC5wb2xpY2UubnN3Lmdvdi5hdSUyRm1lZGlhJTJGODIyNjQuaHRtbCZhbGw9MQ%3D%3D

[hardtack 10,537]

48 minutes ago, bing181 said:

Actually, it turns out that many of them haven't even been charged, but have been issued with warnings. But that's how the press works, especially in Australia.

Police article here, if anyone's interested.

"Police take legal action against more than 180 people so far during 2019/2020 bushfire season"

https://www.police.nsw.gov.au/news/news_article?sq_content_src=%2BdXJsPWh0dHBzJTNBJTJGJTJGZWJpenByZC5wb2xpY2UubnN3Lmdvdi5hdSUyRm1lZGlhJTJGODIyNjQuaHRtbCZhbGw9MQ%3D%3D

This from the Sydney Morning Herald:

“This fire season, police have taken legal action - ranging from cautions to charges - against 180 people including 24 people charged over deliberately lit bushfires, 53 who allegedly failed to comply with a total fire ban and 47 who allegedly discarded a lit cigarette or match.”
https://www.smh.com.au/national/teenager-among-180-people-facing-legal-action-over-lighting-fires-20200107-p53pla.html

[dieter 3,325]

10 hours ago, hardtack said:

This from the Sydney Morning Herald:

“This fire season, police have taken legal action - ranging from cautions to charges - against 180 people including 24 people charged over deliberately lit bushfires, 53 who allegedly failed to comply with a total fire ban and 47 who allegedly discarded a lit cigarette or match.”
https://www.smh.com.au/national/teenager-among-180-people-facing-legal-action-over-lighting-fires-20200107-p53pla.html

Then there are to 'Arson Trolls': https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2020/jan/08/twitter-bots-trolls-australian-bushfires-social-media-disinformation-campaign-false-claims? 

Obviously member of the Arson Squad.

[hardtack 10,537]

22 minutes ago, dieter said:

Then there are to 'Arson Trolls': https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2020/jan/08/twitter-bots-trolls-australian-bushfires-social-media-disinformation-campaign-false-claims? 

Obviously member of the Arson Squad.

Yes, I know about them... but even if it was arsonists, who are responsible for lighting such fires every year, the fires should never have taken off the way that they have; that is purely down to conditions that have become increasingly volatile over the years courtesy of, gasp, climate change. 
I liken the deniers to fundamentalist christians who deny the science in favour of their own belief systems.
The fact that these fires are unprecedented and the fact that by the end of November, the fires had burnt out more bush land than the previous three bushfire seasons combined, tells me that this is more than just fires being a normal part of the cycle.  The deniers are so short on arguments, that they try to blame the Greens and protestors for the fact that the conditions are so bad... something that has been refuted by even the fire fighting agencies.

Edited January 7, 2020 by hardtack

[hardtack 10,537]

24 minutes ago, dieter said:

Then there are to 'Arson Trolls': https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2020/jan/08/twitter-bots-trolls-australian-bushfires-social-media-disinformation-campaign-false-claims? 

Obviously member of the Arson Squad.

If you’re referring to the SMH article quote I posted, then...no. Those are factual figures, but they are arsonists who were caught lighting fires, and as far as I’m aware, none of those fires took hold. Only one fire, again, to the best of my knowledge, was caused indirectly by humans, and that was a large fire in SA that was started by sparking electrical wires.

[dieter 3,325]

8 minutes ago, hardtack said:

If you’re referring to the SMH article quote I posted, then...no. Those are factual figures, but they are arsonists who were caught lighting fires, and as far as I’m aware, none of those fires took hold. Only one fire, again, to the best of my knowledge, was caused indirectly by humans, and that was a large fire in SA that was started by sparking electrical wires.

My Trolls Asson Squad post was aimed at Mr Jakovich and his ilk who believe the fires are the results of arsonists.

 

[dieter 3,325]

55 minutes ago, hardtack said:

Yes, I know about them... but even if it was arsonists, who are responsible for lighting such fires every year, the fires should never have taken off the way that they have; that is purely down to conditions that have become increasingly volatile over the years courtesy of, gasp, climate change. 
I liken the deniers to fundamentalist christians who deny the science in favour of their own belief systems.
The fact that these fires are unprecedented and the fact that by the end of November, the fires had burnt out more bush land than the previous three bushfire seasons combined, tells me that this is more than just fires being a normal part of the cycle.  The deniers are so short on arguments, that they try to blame the Greens and protestors for the fact that the conditions are so bad... something that has been refuted by even the fire fighting agencies.

The neighbour I referred to yesterday took my wife aside and pointed out he is contacting the government because we had solar panels installed in December and because we have a huge oak tree at the back, unfortunately the bulk of the panels are on the Eastern facing part of the roof. He lives directly across from us, his kitchen is at the back of his house, i.e. furthest away from the panels. His problem is the 3 to 3.30 PM glare he claims he gets and he stated that the glare is heating up his kitchen - at the back of his house, though there is not one inch of his kitchen area which faces west, if you get my drift.

This man is a climate change denier/fundamentalist and when I told him we were installing solar panels he said straight out, Climate Change is Bulldust.

This man is no fool, he is in his early 80's, still of sound mind, but he has determined that our installation of solar panels - there is also at least a forty meter distance between our east facing wall and the west facing front of his house - is heating up the kitchen at the back of his house. That is the height and depth of Fundamentalism as Anything, as they say in the classics.

Edited January 8, 2020 by dieter
polish

[Accepting Mediocrity 1,418]

12 hours ago, bing181 said:

If you add the current fires to that sequence, regardless of anything else, it shows that these extreme fire events are becoming more frequent.

While 4 data points are hardly enough to definitively say it's a trend scientifically speaking, various analyses of the frequency of fires in Australia do show that yes, the frequency of fires is most definitely increasing. Again, the reasons aren't necessarily straightforward, but obviously climate is a major factor.

12 hours ago, bing181 said:

Really hard to see how referring to the science is "politicising" the discussion.

While I agree that it's something of an elephant in the room, I'm yet to see the topic of climate change lead to considered, measured discussion on any online platform - the discussion generally degenerates to mudslinging, "globalist leftist agendas" and personal attacks faster than a Demonland Jack Watts thread.

Sadly, some people have very strong pre-established opinions on the topic, and are unlikely to change them based on something they read on a football forum. 

I think this thread would be better for all if we stick to the directly topic of the current bushfires.

 

[Jara 1,153]

3 minutes ago, Accepting Mediocrity said:

While I agree that it's something of an elephant in the room

It's an elephant in a matchbox

[hardtack 10,537]

On 1/7/2020 at 1:37 PM, JakovichScissorKick said:

https://www.theaustralian.com.au/nation/bushfires-firebugs-fuelling-crisis-asarson-arresttollhits183/news-story/52536dc9ca9bb87b7c76d36ed1acf53f

Almost 200 arrested.

The country is on fire due to arsonists.   The climate change cult will conveniently ignore that though.

You might want to read this article. Particularly the bit that cites the Victorian police categorically stating that none of the fires affecting the state, were deliberately lit by arsonists.

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2020/jan/08/australia-where-lies-and-conspiracy-theories-spread-like-bushfire?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

[dieter 3,325]

25 minutes ago, hardtack said:

You might want to read this article. Particularly the bit that cites the Victorian police categorically stating that none of the fires affecting the state, were deliberately lit by arsonists.

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2020/jan/08/australia-where-lies-and-conspiracy-theories-spread-like-bushfire?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

He will have an answer. Hard right men and women who get their life via Rupert ALWAYS have THE ANSWER.

[dieter 3,325]

More for the Arson Squad, direct from the mouths of Victoria Police:

Victoria Police say the fires engulfing the eastern part of Victoria are not being treated as the work of arsonists, as claimed by a widespread social media campaign.

In the past week, a Twitter hashtag #ArsonEmergency – mimicking the popular #BushfireEmergency hashtag – attracted thousands of tweets linking the fires to arsonists and casting doubt on the role of climate change in exacerbating the bushfires' severity.

But authorities have moved to dispel those claims.

"Police are aware of a number of posts circulating in relation to the current bushfire situation, however currently there is no intelligence to indicate that the fires in East Gippsland and north-east Victoria have been caused by arson or any other suspicious behaviour," a police spokeswoman said.

The CFA incident controller in Bairnsdale, Brett Mitchell, backed up that statement on Thursday, saying that none of the recent fires in the East Gippsland area have been started by arson.

 

 

[dieter 3,325]

On 1/7/2020 at 1:37 PM, JakovichScissorKick said:

https://www.theaustralian.com.au/nation/bushfires-firebugs-fuelling-crisis-asarson-arresttollhits183/news-story/52536dc9ca9bb87b7c76d36ed1acf53f

Almost 200 arrested.

The country is on fire due to arsonists.   The climate change cult will conveniently ignore that though.

https://news.google.com/articles/CBMib2h0dHBzOi8vd3d3LnRoZWd1YXJkaWFuLmNvbS9tZWRpYS8yMDIwL2phbi8xMC9uZXdzLWNvcnAtZW1wbG95ZWUtY2xpbWF0ZS1taXNpbmZvcm1hdGlvbi1idXNoZmlyZS1jb3ZlcmFnZS1lbWFpbNIBb2h0dHBzOi8vYW1wLnRoZWd1YXJkaWFuLmNvbS9tZWRpYS8yMDIwL2phbi8xMC9uZXdzLWNvcnAtZW1wbG95ZWUtY2xpbWF0ZS1taXNpbmZvcm1hdGlvbi1idXNoZmlyZS1jb3ZlcmFnZS1lbWFpbA?hl=en-AU&gl=AU&ceid=AU%3Aen

From The Guardian, re a senior Murdoch Editor distancing himself from the lies being printed by The Australia, Herald Sun and daily mail about the fires.

 

[JakovichScissorKick 771]

1 hour ago, dieter said:

https://news.google.com/articles/CBMib2h0dHBzOi8vd3d3LnRoZWd1YXJkaWFuLmNvbS9tZWRpYS8yMDIwL2phbi8xMC9uZXdzLWNvcnAtZW1wbG95ZWUtY2xpbWF0ZS1taXNpbmZvcm1hdGlvbi1idXNoZmlyZS1jb3ZlcmFnZS1lbWFpbNIBb2h0dHBzOi8vYW1wLnRoZWd1YXJkaWFuLmNvbS9tZWRpYS8yMDIwL2phbi8xMC9uZXdzLWNvcnAtZW1wbG95ZWUtY2xpbWF0ZS1taXNpbmZvcm1hdGlvbi1idXNoZmlyZS1jb3ZlcmFnZS1lbWFpbA?hl=en-AU&gl=AU&ceid=AU%3Aen

From The Guardian, re a senior Murdoch Editor distancing himself from the lies being printed by The Australia, Herald Sun and daily mail about the fires.

 

Good for her.  Newscorp sucks.

And 'The Guardian' is just as bad if not worse than any Newscorp rag.  They just push propaganda for the other side.

[dieter 3,325]

7 minutes ago, JakovichScissorKick said:

Good for her.  Newscorp sucks.

And 'The Guardian' is just as bad if not worse than any Newscorp rag.  They just push propaganda for the other side.

Yep, agree. The Guardian's track record about Assange, for example, is execrable.

 

Edited January 10, 2020 by dieter