We can embrace the greater good or dwell on a small minority who's only crime is to make lots of money. Jealousy is a curse.

 

Morning Wrecker 

So you'd be happy to see Hawthorn win the next fifty premierships?

11 hours ago, Wrecker45 said:

 

Capitalism is brilliant in part because of its reward system. Some people will become disproportionately rich but for every billionaire there will be a large multiple of people who are dragged into a better life.

 

Don't disagree with you but for every billionaire there will be people who, through no fault of their own, be crushed by the system. 

Unfortunately there is no perfect system or to be completely accurate, good system that doesn't have inherent flaws when trying to balance competing needs. 

 

Edited January 28, 20187 yr by nutbean

8 hours ago, Jara said:

So you'd be happy to see Hawthorn win the next fifty premierships?

#Sowhatyouresaying

No doubt your comment was tongue in cheek, but the resentment it broadly represents is self crippling.   

23 hours ago, Trisul said:

#Sowhatyouresaying

No doubt your comment was tongue in cheek, but the resentment it broadly represents is self crippling.   

Self-crippling? That makes about as much sense to me as Wrecker's suggestion that I was 'jealous'.

I feel neither crippled nor jealous of anybody. I just happen to believe that societies that allow massive amounts of wealth to accumulate to a few individuals tend not to work as well as their more egalitarian counterparts . 

Last year I heard a documentary about Norway's Sovereign Wealth Fund. Basically they've saved vast amounts from their North Sea oil. Their savings are ten times greater than our own; their financial future is secure.

Australia, on the other hand, seems to have just p*&%ed our resource income up against the wall and given it to people like Gina Rhino. Which, I presume, is one of the reasons our public infrastructure is disintegrating and so many of us worry about our kids' future.   

 

 

8 hours ago, Jara said:

Self-crippling? That makes about as much sense to me as Wrecker's suggestion that I was 'jealous'.

I feel neither crippled nor jealous of anybody. I just happen to believe that societies that allow massive amounts of wealth to accumulate to a few individuals tend not to work as well as their more egalitarian counterparts . 

Last year I heard a documentary about Norway's Sovereign Wealth Fund. Basically they've saved vast amounts from their North Sea oil. Their savings are ten times greater than our own; their financial future is secure.

Australia, on the other hand, seems to have just p*&%ed our resource income up against the wall and given it to people like Gina Rhino. Which, I presume, is one of the reasons our public infrastructure is disintegrating and so many of us worry about our kids' future.   

 

 

  The problem with the equality agenda is that it's not so much driven by a love of the poor as it is by a hatred of the rich. The very first days of the Bolsheviks illustrate this.They Murder the royals, ransack the palaces,rape,pillage and plunder the shops and then begin turning on themselves.

   Do you expect Gina Rhinehart to build public roads after paying sovereign,mineral and business tax as well as having several thousand employees contribute their PAYE tax back into the economy?You can blame the decay of infrastructure in Melbourne and Sydney fairly and squarely on the massive influx of immigrants aided by both sides of politics .

Morning Biff - certainly agree with your last comment - in part, anyway. I'm sure a lot of it is because of badly planned migration (my wife works as an emergency nurse - reckons their work load has doubled in the past 10 years and staffing levels more or less the same - same seems to be true of most other aspects of the public infrastructure) - but I also suspect a lot of it is due to the behaviour of the rich (for example - tax avoidance - read this book a couple of years ago - called Treasure Islands, or something like that - pointed out that in a typical western capitalist country like ours, about 10% of our GDP is buried away in tax havens (another amazing fact I remember - in many Third World countries, around 20% is squirrelled away - in Russia, it was around 40% - I presume this is all because technology has made it easier to do - governments always lag behind the spivs and conmen)

 

As for The Rhino - she's weird - inherited iron ore worth tens of billions and grumbles because we won't work for African wages. 

Hope things are going well for you in North Altona (as I think said to you once before, I grew up round there)

Hi Jara,

Perhaps crippling in this case was too severe (exchange with limiting if you like) but you chose Hawthorn for a reason.  What was the motivation for choosing Hawthorn and not e.g. St Kilda or Fremantle?  The Hawks certainly haven't destroyed the roads etc etc.

 

36 minutes ago, Trisul said:

Hi Jara,

Perhaps crippling in this case was too severe (exchange with limiting if you like) but you chose Hawthorn for a reason.  What was the motivation for choosing Hawthorn and not e.g. St Kilda or Fremantle?  The Hawks certainly haven't destroyed the roads etc etc.

Hi T - hmmm - have to think back to what I meant - I tend to shoot first and think later on these posts - you've confused me a bit - I didn't think I was talking about roads etc (mind you, I hate the Hawks so much, I'd be happy to blame them for the state of the roads)

Maybe a better question would have been: 'Are you happy that the Hawks have won twelve premierships in the past fifty years while we've won none?" 

I mean it was great the the Dogs and Tigers broke through, but I was getting heartily sick of a league in which the same teams - the big power ones - kept winning premierships and we didn't. Which is why I support the equality measures that the AFL has introduced.

My reasons for supporting greater equality in the broader society are similar. When a small number of individuals grab everything for themselves, it means a lot of others miss out. If that's the law of the jungle, so be it, but I don't think it is: much of it comes from the type of government/taxation systems we choose to introduce. 

 

I was only joking about Rinehart, but jeez, she's a horrible example of something. I mean, she inherited the bloody stuff, and then runs around doing weird things with her power - my favourite was getting her staff to vote for her as a "Woman's Weekly Living National Treasure", or whatever it was. Then there's the grumbling about us not working for African wages, the ugly spats with her own kids, bribing Barnaby. She's a shocker - the Bernard Tomic of mining magnates (I don't think it's jealousy, pace Wrecker - I mean, I don't react to Twiggy in the same way) 

 

 

5 hours ago, Jara said:

 

Hi T - hmmm - have to think back to what I meant - I tend to shoot first and think later on these posts - you've confused me a bit - I didn't think I was talking about roads etc (mind you, I hate the Hawks so much, I'd be happy to blame them for the state of the roads)

Maybe a better question would have been: 'Are you happy that the Hawks have won twelve premierships in the past fifty years while we've won none?" 

I mean it was great the the Dogs and Tigers broke through, but I was getting heartily sick of a league in which the same teams - the big power ones - kept winning premierships and we didn't. Which is why I support the equality measures that the AFL has introduced.

My reasons for supporting greater equality in the broader society are similar. When a small number of individuals grab everything for themselves, it means a lot of others miss out. If that's the law of the jungle, so be it, but I don't think it is: much of it comes from the type of government/taxation systems we choose to introduce. 

 

I was only joking about Rinehart, but jeez, she's a horrible example of something. I mean, she inherited the bloody stuff, and then runs around doing weird things with her power - my favourite was getting her staff to vote for her as a "Woman's Weekly Living National Treasure", or whatever it was. Then there's the grumbling about us not working for African wages, the ugly spats with her own kids, bribing Barnaby. She's a shocker - the Bernard Tomic of mining magnates (I don't think it's jealousy, pace Wrecker - I mean, I don't react to Twiggy in the same way) 

 

 

Jara- money is sticky and magnetic-the sooner you learn that the better for you and your family.The rest is merely resentment.

Ghandi was an a grade [censored] eater and [censored] drinker. There is plenty for all of us no matter who has a lot.

On 30/01/2018 at 4:31 PM, Jara said:

Self-crippling? That makes about as much sense to me as Wrecker's suggestion that I was 'jealous'.

I feel neither crippled nor jealous of anybody. I just happen to believe that societies that allow massive amounts of wealth to accumulate to a few individuals tend not to work as well as their more egalitarian counterparts . 

Last year I heard a documentary about Norway's Sovereign Wealth Fund. Basically they've saved vast amounts from their North Sea oil. Their savings are ten times greater than our own; their financial future is secure.

Australia, on the other hand, seems to have just p*&%ed our resource income up against the wall and given it to people like Gina Rhino. Which, I presume, is one of the reasons our public infrastructure is disintegrating and so many of us worry about our kids' future.   

 

 

There is Norway and there is Qatar who make $60 billion a year in royalties from their gas reserves. We are about to surpass their output in gas exports but our income is measured in the millions because we have sold out industry to overseas multinational companies who specialise in tax minimisation and enjoy tax holidays because they have invested money in extraction infrastructure. We are handing over natural resources for next to nothing to overseas multinational mining, oil and gas companies who exploit our resources and pay minimal tax and royalties. 

Rex Connor might have been on to something all those years ago! 

12 hours ago, Biffen said:

Jara- money is sticky and magnetic-the sooner you learn that the better for you and your family.The rest is merely resentment.

Ghandi was an a grade [censored] eater and [censored] drinker. There is plenty for all of us no matter who has a lot.

Thanks for the advice, Biff, but it's a bit late in life for me to learn new tricks. (And thanks for your concern about my financial situation, but don't worry, I'm doing fine - it's not personal resentment or jealousy -  I just reckon that societies that hand everything over to the robber barons don't do a very good job for the majority of their citizens - a comparison, for example, of the health care systems of Australia and the US would be a pretty clear demonstration)  

3 hours ago, Jara said:

Thanks for the advice, Biff, but it's a bit late in life for me to learn new tricks. (And thanks for your concern about my financial situation, but don't worry, I'm doing fine - it's not personal resentment or jealousy -  I just reckon that societies that hand everything over to the robber barons don't do a very good job for the majority of their citizens - a comparison, for example, of the health care systems of Australia and the US would be a pretty clear demonstration)  

What if the robber barons and the state are the same entity as in China , Russia and every corrupt Marxist doctrine based economy?

19 hours ago, Biffen said:

What if the robber barons and the state are the same entity as in China , Russia and every corrupt Marxist doctrine based economy?

Uh, god, they are. I have not one ounce of sympathy for the governments of either of those countries. A bunch of dangerous kleptocrats. We're bad, but they're worse. Robber barons everywhere (see my post above - about 40% of Russia's GDP is hidden in tax havens).

All we can do is try to call them out. Support progressive liberal democracy wherever you see it.

 

I have to laugh when I see the Chinese crooks call themselves 'Marxists'. They're not a Marxist's a#$&hole. I groan when I see all these Chinese billionaires buying up our real estate and driving up our house prices. I lived in China for a couple of years, speak reasonable Chinese, and have seen first hand the suffering upon which their fortunes are based. I know a huge Chinese middle-class has been dragged out of poverty, but, from what I could see, many of the poorer people (i.e. away from the east coast cities) are living in worse conditions than they were when I first went there, thirty three years ago.  

Fantastic to see Trump coming good on his promise to drain the swamp.

The realeased memo is tip of the iceberg stuff. I would hate to be the clintons right now. Gaol is waiting...

11 hours ago, Wrecker45 said:

Fantastic to see Trump coming good on his promise to drain the swamp.

The realeased memo is tip of the iceberg stuff. I would hate to be the clintons right now. Gaol is waiting...

Heard it on the news, but I don't get it. A bunch of Republican congressmen reckon the investigation into Russian involvement in the election is biased. Where's the surprise in that? Of course they think that.

 

No sympathy for Bill - he should have got the sack for being a bad liar - but why do you think Hillary's going to gaol?

 

Drain the swamp? Boy, have you been sucked in. Trump is the swamp.

On 04/02/2018 at 8:56 AM, Jara said:

Heard it on the news, but I don't get it. A bunch of Republican congressmen reckon the investigation into Russian involvement in the election is biased. Where's the surprise in that? Of course they think that.

 

No sympathy for Bill - he should have got the sack for being a bad liar - but why do you think Hillary's going to gaol?

 

Drain the swamp? Boy, have you been sucked in. Trump is the swamp.

It is not a matter of whether they are all crooks - I think that's a given  it is a matter of whether there is strong enough evidence to get convictions.

6 hours ago, nutbean said:

It is not a matter of whether they are all crooks - I think that's a given  it is a matter of whether there is strong enough evidence to get convictions.

Still don't get it - not sure whether you're talking about Hillary or Trump going to gaol.

I was asking Wrecker about Hillary - why he seemed so confident that gaol was waiting for her, just because of some dodgy Republican memo. 

 

I personally suspect that the chances of either of them ever going to gaol are miniscule. 

16 hours ago, Jara said:

Still don't get it - not sure whether you're talking about Hillary or Trump going to gaol.

I was asking Wrecker about Hillary - why he seemed so confident that gaol was waiting for her, just because of some dodgy Republican memo. 

 

I personally suspect that the chances of either of them ever going to gaol are miniscule. 

i was talking generically.

Hillary won't go to jail  - not sure why Wrecker thinks she will. ( my comment on strong enough evidence - was more a reflection on the Whitewater saga going back some years)

I can absolutely see Trump being  indicted for obstruction. I was always iffy about anyone in the administration being indicted for collusion. The administration and campaign wasn't functional enough to tie their own shoelaces let alone collude.

 

 

Edited February 5, 20187 yr by nutbean

2 hours ago, nutbean said:

i was talking generically.

Hillary won't go to jail  - not sure why Wrecker thinks she will. ( my comment on strong enough evidence - was more a reflection on the Whitewater saga going back some years)

I can absolutely see Trump being  indicted for obstruction. I was always iffy about anyone in the administration being indicted for collusion. The administration and campaign wasn't functional enough to tie their own shoelaces let alone collude.

 

 

I think once Mueller finishes his investigation, we'll see that Page and Manafort at the very least colluded with the Russians.

We already know Flynn was talking to Russians before the election, making promises he wasn't legally allowed to (promising to lift Obama's sanctions when Trump was elected). He's now co-operating with Mueller. Manafort and Papadopoulos also took deals.

I agree Trump himself probably didn't collude, and left that stuff to his campaign staff.

Also agreed Trump will probably end up getting done for obstruction of justice rather than collusion. He said on TV that he fired Comey because of the Russia investigation, but only a few days beforehand the White House released a statement saying the complete opposite. Since his campaign is the target of that investigation, he directly benefits by getting rid of Comey. It's obscene. His next target will be Rosenstein, as requesting the DAG to fire Mueller will [censored] off too many Republicans and lead to impeachment (or at least his own party demanding his resignation as with Nixon). If he gets rid of Rosenstein he can put someone else in place who'll restrict Mueller without having to fire him and deal with that fallout.

Trump himself said that he would not have appointed Jeff Sessions as AG if he knew Sessions would recuse himself from overseeing the Russian investigation (he has a conflict of interest). The appointment and supervision of the special investigator fell to Rosenstein in Sesson's stead and Trump is very unhappy with this. He thought appointing Sessions would avoid this sort of thing, but Sessions was smart enough to realise that he couldn't oversee a special investigator if he was a possible target.

I'm also pretty concerned that Trump chose not to place sanctions on the Russians for the election meddling, considering Congress passed that resolution something like 400 to 5 or whatever (can't remember the exact numbers). Even the Republicans want the Russians punished, but Trump flinched. The optics aren't good - Trump's campaign investigated for colluding with the Russians and then Trump decides not the punish them for the electoral manipulations.

Today's been pretty interesting so far. Nunes claimed Trump never met with George Papadopoulos, and then the internet finds a tweet Trump made during the campaign that shows them at the same table. Nunes is a piece of work - releasing a memo calling into question that FISA application but refusing to release the Democratic rebuttal memo. Partisan BS.

Hillary has absolutely nothing to do with this. This is all on Trump and his people. Maybe the only Hillary-related issue is that Trump promised to 'lock her up', but hasn't done it. I think he was shocked that being President doesn't actually give you direct control over law enforcement or the courts. I very much doubt he understands how the separation of powers in the US operates, which is why he's in this mess right now.

4 hours ago, Choke said:

 

 I very much doubt he understands how the separation of powers in the US operates, which is why he's in this mess right now.

To me this is his Presidency in a nutshell. He is behaving the same way as he would business without the understanding that the rules ( for better or for worse) are very different. I would extend it further that it is not only separation of powers problematic but also his lack of understanding about the different standard of propriety between private business and elected public officials. I can't get over that he spends every second week at Mar-Lago and the Gov't is being charged for it for both his guests and all the admin and secret service he takes with him. If that is not a conflict of interest i don't know what is. In sense, he is not the first to do this as President's have traditionally taken themselves and guests to their second homes. And I am sure that there were added expenses for this however  -hotel rack rates ???

The whole situation is -- amazing really. I've never seen anything like it. Apparently there's this mass of white working-class Americans who are p&*d off because they've been left behind by the changing economy. 

So they respond by ...electing one of the generalissimos responsible for those changes, a buffoonish snake-oil salesman who'd sell his own mother for spare change.

Boy, are they going to get a surprise.

Read a great book a few years ago - What's the Matter with Kansas? or something like that. The author went back to his home state to try and figure out why they keep electing the very business-friendly people who have been selling their jobs to China. Main conclusion: the Republicans have discovered that pushing "cultural" issues - i.e. guns, race and religion -  is enough to make people vote against their own economic interests. The poor buggers are seeing their jobs disappear, and rather than blaming the fat cats responsible, they blame East-coast 'liberals' who want to take away their guns.

 

Personally, I blame television. Producing a generation of morons.

 

 

15 minutes ago, Jara said:

The whole situation is -- amazing really. I've never seen anything like it. Apparently there's this mass of white working-class Americans who are p&*d off because they've been left behind by the changing economy. 

So they respond by ...electing one of the generalissimos responsible for those changes, a buffoonish snake-oil salesman who'd sell his own mother for spare change.

Boy, are they going to get a surprise.

Read a great book a few years ago - What's the Matter with Kansas? or something like that. The author went back to his home state to try and figure out why they keep electing the very business-friendly people who have been selling their jobs to China. Main conclusion: the Republicans have discovered that pushing "cultural" issues - i.e. guns, race and religion -  is enough to make people vote against their own economic interests. The poor buggers are seeing their jobs disappear, and rather than blaming the fat cats responsible, they blame East-coast 'liberals' who want to take away their guns.

 

Personally, I blame television. Producing a generation of morons.

 

 

american politics is un-understandable (or should that be just standable?)

Stock Market rattles

How far....?

On 1/31/2018 at 8:40 PM, Biffen said:

Money is sticky and magnetic-the sooner you learn that the better for you and your family.

Might also be better for his footy club. But supposedly thats not the case for many at the MFC - oh well such is life. 

Edited February 6, 20187 yr by DaveyDee

15 hours ago, Jara said:

.

 

Personally, I blame television. Producing a generation of morons.

 

 

I blame Jack Watts