1 minute ago, 1 red eye 1 blue eye said:

For one they should've filled out the asada forms honestly, asada would've checked if it everything was ok or, not.

 

Probably, but maybe they were just doing what they're told. Not saying that makes it ok obviously, but let's remember what footy club culture was like before this, the players were basically robots who did as instructed without question.

 

Just now, stuie said:

Not saying they're blameless at all, just think before all this footy club culture was all based on trust, so when the club legend who is your coach, and the highly paid medical staff come and tell you to go on a medical program that is totally safe and legal you would believe them. That's all changed now, but it's changed due to this whole thing, it wasn't that way before all this happened. Let's remember most of the players are basically kids, kids who all those spreadsheets etc done for them by club staff. They've learned their lesson now, they've been suitably punished and footy club culture has forever been changed.

 

Not an unreasonable response Stuie. I would just be happier if anyone at the EFC said "I was wrong."

As you say we should all learn from this saga but the "old boys" network is hard at work to paint it as a one off that may never have even happened

22 hours ago, stuie said:

But what should they do? Get out their scientific testing equipment whenever the coach and medical staff tell them to take something that is safe and legal just to be sure?

I assume you've done hours of scientific testing every time you were about to take any form of medication?

 

No, they aren't responsible for testing, they are responsible for ensuring that what they consume is legit. There were sufficient red flags for further enquiries to be made, and they weren't. If you think about it, if an athlete was able to be, or claim to be, willfully blind to what they consume, we would have a perfect defence to any performance enhancing drug taking. 

I read above that 2 people were responsible.  No.  It's a system. Two people may be directly responsible, but so was Hird, Bombers, Dr Reid and the players.  Ultimately the responsibility isn't with Dank at all,  it's actually with the players. It is a fact that Zaharakis had sufficient concern to opt out - now that's leadership.  

I have every sympathy for the young bombers players who would have trusted their club and their leaders. If I were 18 and given assurance by coach, admin, and seeing  Jobe doing it, honestly I would too without question. 

Bottom line is Jobe failed badly in leadership (Hird worship and too much trust in the club) and unless the appeal gets up, he is a drug cheat.  Not because he intended to be one, but because he is one. 

 

Edited September 23, 20168 yr by Choko

1 minute ago, Sir Why You Little said:

All the information was on Google

Still is. 

Right. So James Hird, an AFL legend, the biggest figure at your club, your coach and boss, and his highly paid medical team tell you something is safe and legal and you need to take it to be part of the team and keep your job, you reply with "but google says...."

Let's be realistic about footy club culture mate.

 

2 minutes ago, Diamond_Jim said:

Not an unreasonable response Stuie. I would just be happier if anyone at the EFC said "I was wrong."

As you say we should all learn from this saga but the "old boys" network is hard at work to paint it as a one off that may never have even happened

Could not agree more. Their continuing denial is not only incredibly frustrating, but it shows a lack of remorse and even worse, a lack of care for the future of the players who still don't know exactly what they took.

 

1 minute ago, stuie said:

Right. So James Hird, an AFL legend, the biggest figure at your club, your coach and boss, and his highly paid medical team tell you something is safe and legal and you need to take it to be part of the team and keep your job, you reply with "but google says...."

Let's be realistic about footy club culture mate.

 

Highly paid medical team that didnt include the club doctor but ok

22 hours ago, stuie said:

Right. So James Hird, an AFL legend, the biggest figure at your club, your coach and boss, and his highly paid medical team tell you something is safe and legal and you need to take it to be part of the team and keep your job, you reply with "but google says...."

Let's be realistic about footy club culture mate.

 

It's the same culture that you could excuse for violence against women.... for years and still today that's prevalent. Leaders should demonstrate leadership. Yes, they trusted too much. That's a failure. They also didn't make reasonable enquiries and misled ASADA. Now they are drug cheats. 

Edited September 23, 20168 yr by Choko

2 minutes ago, stuie said:

Right. So James Hird, an AFL legend, the biggest figure at your club, your coach and boss, and his highly paid medical team tell you something is safe and legal and you need to take it to be part of the team and keep your job, you reply with "but google says...."

Let's be realistic about footy club culture mate.

 

Let's be realistic about The Law

all these "Kids" are over 18

Footy Culture is absolutely no excuse 

3 minutes ago, Choko said:

No, they aren't responsible for testing, they are responsible for ensuring that what they consume is legit. There were sufficient red flags for further enquiries to be made, and they weren't. If you think about it, if an athlete was able to be, or claim to be, willfully blind to what they consume, we would have a perfect defence to any performance enhancing drug taking. 

I read above that 2 people were responsible.  No.  It's a system. Two people may be directly responsible, but so was Hird, Bombers, Dr Reid and the players.  Ultimately the responsibility isn't with Dank at all,  it's actually with the players. It is a fact that Zaharakis had sufficient concern to opt out - now that's leadership.  

I have every sympathy for the young bombers players who would have trusted their club and their leaders. If I were 18 and given assurance by coach, admin, and seeing  Jobe doing it, honestly I would too without question. 

Bottom line is Jobe failed badly in leadership (Hird worship and too much trust in the club) and unless the appeal gets up, he is a drug cheat.  Not because he intended to be one, but because he is one. 

 

Look I don't disagree, I'm just putting it all in the context of footy club culture from the player's perspective.

It's good and bad in a way that it's been irrevocably changed; Good that players have learned now to be more wary, educated and responsible, but bad that the unique and really special environment of trust and unity of football clubs will never be the same.

 

2 minutes ago, Choko said:

It's the same culture that you could excuse for violence against women.... for years and still today that's prevalent. Leaders should demonstrate leadership. Yes, they trusted too much. That's a failure. Now they are drug cheats. 

Probably the longest bow I've seen drawn during this whole saga.

 

3 minutes ago, Sir Why You Little said:

Let's be realistic about The Law

all these "Kids" are over 18

Footy Culture is absolutely no excuse 

Not making excuses.

Think this might be all a bit above your head mate. Your fist shaking rhetoric is all you contribute on any topic.

 

1 minute ago, stuie said:

Not making excuses.

Think this might be all a bit above your head mate. Your fist shaking rhetoric is all you contribute on any topic.

 

Whatever. I certainly don't want to argue with you about it all day

But after all the Paperwork and records were shredded and players didn't fill in WADA forms correctly I would have given them all a life ban

That would clean up the sport instantly

the players are 100% responsible for everything they put in their bodies, they're over 18 and they're professional sportsmen, it's harsh but it's that simple.

the culture justification i see as being a little weak, i compare that to " all the other kids were doing it so i assumed it would be fine" that doesn't shift responsibility, just shows that these guys either tried to hide behind it, or they are quite unprofessional in how they approached it, either way, they're now convicted drug cheats and there is no way Jobe can keep his brownlow.

fairest and best player in the same year he's found guilting of a doping violation. 

3 minutes ago, Abe said:

the players are 100% responsible for everything they put in their bodies, they're over 18 and they're professional sportsmen, it's harsh but it's that simple.

Haven't said they're not. But in the context of what footy club culture has been, if they're told by their AFL legend head coach and medical staff that it's one thing, why would they have thought it wasn't? That has changed now since this has happened, but let's remember how different things were before.

 

21 minutes ago, stuie said:

Right. So James Hird, an AFL legend, the biggest figure at your club, your coach and boss, and his highly paid medical team tell you something is safe and legal and you need to take it to be part of the team and keep your job, you reply with "but google says...."

Let's be realistic about footy club culture mate.

 

 

2 minutes ago, stuie said:

Haven't said they're not. But in the context of what footy club culture has been, if they're told by their AFL legend head coach and medical staff that it's one thing, why would they have thought it wasn't? That has changed now since this has happened, but let's remember how different things were before.

 

Again. It wasnt the medical team - they specifically left the doc out and went across the road to a clinic for their injections

4 minutes ago, biggestred said:

 

Again. It wasnt the medical team - they specifically left the doc out and went across the road to a clinic for their injections

What was Dank then, their waterboy? How about "The Weapon", bootstudder?

You know Reid gave final approval right? According to Hird.

 

Edited September 23, 20168 yr by stuie

He's been so brave.

1 minute ago, stuie said:

Haven't said they're not. But in the context of what footy club culture has been, if they're told by their AFL legend head coach and medical staff that it's one thing, why would they have thought it wasn't? That has changed now since this has happened, but let's remember how different things were before.

 

Because of the non-disclosure on the ASADA forms. IMO, this is the single biggest indictment of player guilt.

We know that no player disclosed 'thymo' on their ASADA forms. We also know because of player texts that they knew they were taking something referred to as 'thymo'.

No one has offered an explanation for this lack of disclosure that doesn't indicate that the players were at least partially complicit.

I see 3 scenarios:

1 - They were told not to disclose. Red flag, should have done some research at this point as to what was going on.

2 - 34 players all accidentally left off the same injection in their form. Seems extremely unlikely.

3 - A culture of silence around the injections was heavily implied, leading the players not to disclose. I believe this is the most likely scenario. However, it is also a massive red flag like option 1, and the players should have started asking questions at this point.

 

 

Just now, Choke said:

Because of the non-disclosure on the ASADA forms. IMO, this is the single biggest indictment of player guilt.

We know that no player disclosed 'thymo' on their ASADA forms. We also know because of player texts that they knew they were taking something referred to as 'thymo'.

No one has offered an explanation for this lack of disclosure that doesn't indicate that the players were at least partially complicit.

I see 3 scenarios:

1 - They were told not to disclose. Red flag, should have done some research at this point as to what was going on.

2 - 34 players all accidentally left off the same injection in their form. Seems extremely unlikely.

3 - A culture of silence around the injections was heavily implied, leading the players not to disclose. I believe this is the most likely scenario. However, it is also a massive red flag like option 1, and the players should have started asking questions at this point.

 

 

4 - They were told it was something else, or possibly not even told at all and just told it was safe and legal.

None of us now. But they've been suitably punished (Dank and Hird are another matter) and it's surely time to move on.

 

11 minutes ago, stuie said:

Probably, but maybe they were just doing what they're told. Not saying that makes it ok obviously, but let's remember what footy club culture was like before this, the players were basically robots who did as instructed without question.

 

I agree this is most likely what happened. The players have served their penalty and I'm ok with them getting on with it. I am curious to see if karma has arrived or is going to play a significant role at the Club though.

 

11 minutes ago, stuie said:

Haven't said they're not. But in the context of what footy club culture has been, if they're told by their AFL legend head coach and medical staff that it's one thing, why would they have thought it wasn't? That has changed now since this has happened, but let's remember how different things were before.

 

They get a mountain of information on this Stuie, i know AFL players who ask for serial numbers on the bottles of supplements they take for their records, that's how detailed their record keeping is, and was at the time this was an issue, that is what i personally expect from professional athletes so either they cheated or they were extremely unprofessional doesn't really matter, point is they aren't blameless.

Just now, stuie said:

4 - They were told it was something else, or possibly not even told at all and just told it was safe and legal.

None of us now. But they've been suitably punished (Dank and Hird are another matter) and it's surely time to move on.

 

Your option doesn't wash with what we know.

We know the players were told it was 'thymo'. We know this because of player texts revealed at the CAS hearing.

If they were told it was safe and legal, they would have disclosed it on the forms. If it's safe and legal, there's nothing to hide, they should have written it on the forms. They can't have forgot, we've heard evidence that there were hundreds of injections. How do you forget hundreds of injections, even if you think they're legal, on a drug form?

I take your point about club culture and how hard it must have been to counter it, but as I said, the the lack of disclosure on their ASADA forms is damning, as is the ability of Zaharakis to counter that culture and say no.

 

You are correct when you say none of us know, and this is really unfortunate.

 

IMO they have not been suitably punished, the penalty should have been longer. But yes, they have served their punishment time and are entitled to return and we need to move on.

 

What really gets my goat up is the media painting Jobe as some sort of returning hero. He's not. He's a drug cheat who's done his time who's now returning to sport, and that's why I started the thread.

2 hours ago, DubDee said:

this bloke had his career ruined by that joke of a club - his best prime 4 years of his career.  cannot believe he would go back.

Doesn't really stack up, does it? Put in this awful situation by the club, all these years of anxiety and grief, reputation damaged, Charlie at risk, and he walks back in the door.

Alternate explanation: he was in on it the whole time. Maybe not on top of the details but knew that there was "monkey business". Can't really say the club betrayed him then.

7 minutes ago, Abe said:

They get a mountain of information on this Stuie, i know AFL players who ask for serial numbers on the bottles of supplements they take for their records, that's how detailed their record keeping is, and was at the time this was an issue, that is what i personally expect from professional athletes so either they cheated or they were extremely unprofessional doesn't really matter, point is they aren't blameless.

I've not once said they're blameless. I have said they've been suitably punished though.

I guess in my mind when i think of this concept of players keeping spreadsheets and inspecting serial numbers I picture the head of Dyson Heppell and I'm not surprised by the idea that they didn't think too much about the whole thing.

 

Edited September 23, 20168 yr by stuie

2 minutes ago, Choke said:

Your option doesn't wash with what we know.

We know the players were told it was 'thymo'. We know this because of player texts revealed at the CAS hearing.

If they were told it was safe and legal, they would have disclosed it on the forms. If it's safe and legal, there's nothing to hide, they should have written it on the forms. They can't have forgot, we've heard evidence that there were hundreds of injections. How do you forget hundreds of injections, even if you think they're legal, on a drug form?

I take your point about club culture and how hard it must have been to counter it, but as I said, the the lack of disclosure on their ASADA forms is damning, as is the ability of Zaharakis to counter that culture and say no.

You are correct when you say none of us know, and this is really unfortunate.

IMO they have not been suitably punished, the penalty should have been longer. But yes, they have served their punishment time and are entitled to return and we need to move on.

What really gets my goat up is the media painting Jobe as some sort of returning hero. He's not. He's a drug cheat who's done his time who's now returning to sport, and that's why I started the thread.

Yep totally agree on the media side of it as well as the way Essendon have been so defiant and lacking in remorse or ownership of what happened. I'm staggered at how lightly the club, Hird and Dank have gotten off and it's a farce that they are allowed the number 1 pick this year.