On 11/05/2015 at 09:08, chook fowler said:

Does leucopogon relate to your research - a white flowering plant is it not?

No, I'm a fish biologist/ecologist. Botany is more of a hobby along with my other pursuits such as post-match wrist slitting, former recruiter bashing, and maintaining general MFC related angst.

  On 11/05/2015 at 09:00, Wiseblood said:

We've been spending most of our supporter lives living in a flanker's paradise...

Ooooo now ya talkin' homey!

So... What about Salem?

Love him as a flanker.

Can we have another 20?

  On 11/05/2015 at 09:04, leucopogon said:

I agree 2010 netted one potential A-grader (TMac) and another serviceable flanker (Howe) but the thrust of my post was the dearth of midfield talent that we've drafted. It seems that our past recruiters were trying to be too clever by half in their strategy. And you're right, it was flippant of me to write off 2012 as pure shyte, as I'm a huge Kent fan, just hoping like hell he can build a bloody tank so he doesn't become yet another flanker. Then of course there was Jack Viney but he doesn't count because the recruiters didn't have to think about that one.

Anyway, here's hoping the future is brighter.

Well done on your research.

We really stuffed up in 2007-09 re midfield. We took so few true midfielders and our recruiters sure could not spot talent.

20011 was a stinker year too, a complete waste.

I believe that the injury to Frost has shown the lack of depth we have with key position players. Casey last week had only Fitz and maybe Gawn filling key positions and while I acknowledge King and Mac junior they are a long way off senior selection. I know Roos does not like drafting key position players and would rather draft them in so I expect this year he will be looking for talls with a couple of years in the system to recruit. Most clubs are loading up with 3 balls up forward i.e. Petrie, Brown and Waite: Freo's midfield is bigger than out back line not to mention Sandi, Clarke, Taberner and Pav: Hawkins, Stanley and Clarke: while we have Hoges and Dawes!! I can only think that we keep recruiting flankers because we have such a poor success rate over the journey and keep trying.

  On 11/05/2015 at 04:56, Nasher said:

Very few of those you've nominated as flankers were drafted with the intention of actually being developed in to flankers; most of them just ended up there due to not being good enough to start in their nominal positions. For example, Jetta was described by BP as a grunt inside midfielder, and Morton and Toumpas were elite running midfielders as underage players, and Sheahan was supposed to be a KPP.

Really I think the list of "flank" players amounts to a more convoluted way of saying we drafted too many crap players. I realise that's not the OP's intention, but that's what it boils down to for mine.

The conventional positional names of yesteryear just don't exist these days.

We have key position players. - usually 3 tall forwards and 3 tall defenders to play on the opposition 3 tall forwards !

We have small/crumbing forwards

We have a lock down defender on the small forward

We have a ruckman

We then have this huge bucket of running players that occupy wings, flanks and midfield. One or two them may be hard taggers or run with players.

The harder bodied players occupy the midfield from day one - but we have even seen the small forward Gartlett with runs in the midfield.

The examples of Toumpas and Salem as flankers doesn't sit with me. They are just two more in the running player bucket.

I think Salem is a good case in point - Under Roos - used sparingly in his first year - out of the heavy action. Second year he has a position as a HBF'er - probably to really teach him his defensive side - I believe either next year or the year after he will sitting right in the middle of the ground as a mid for the opening bounce.

To define a player at recruiting time as a "flanker" is just not accurate - that is how many have turned out ( many have turned to be really good playing centre half bench and left right out)

  On 11/05/2015 at 23:23, nutbean said:

The conventional positional names of yesteryear just don't exist these days.

We have key position players. - usually 3 tall forwards and 3 tall defenders to play on the opposition 3 tall forwards !

We have small/crumbing forwards

We have a lock down defender on the small forward

We have a ruckman

We then have this huge bucket of running players that occupy wings, flanks and midfield. One or two them may be hard taggers or run with players.

The harder bodied players occupy the midfield from day one - but we have even seen the small forward Gartlett with runs in the midfield.

The examples of Toumpas and Salem as flankers doesn't sit with me. They are just two more in the running player bucket.

I think Salem is a good case in point - Under Roos - used sparingly in his first year - out of the heavy action. Second year he has a position as a HBF'er - probably to really teach him his defensive side - I believe either next year or the year after he will sitting right in the middle of the ground as a mid for the opening bounce.

To define a player at recruiting time as a "flanker" is just not accurate - that is how many have turned out ( many have turned to be really good playing centre half bench and left right out)

I agree and think that the next identified strategy will be the "churn"

There will be contests but players will run to spaces created because of the contest. A player following his opponent to retain a one on one match up will leave a geographical position knowing that a teammate will flow to that position.

Forwards will rotate constantly through the geographical position to provide multiple options. Congestion will be decreased a players will not congregate but rather spread.

Rotating players will only come off the ground when near the bench rather than running across the ground to be rested .

Some of this is happening already and is facilitated by the greater numbers of generic players, all tall, all mobile.

Taken one step further this churn rotation will be used across the squad as players are rested to recover or rejuvenated for a match up in a future game.

Flankers? or just not very good.

  On 11/05/2015 at 23:23, nutbean said:

The conventional positional names of yesteryear just don't exist these days.

We have key position players. - usually 3 tall forwards and 3 tall defenders to play on the opposition 3 tall forwards !

We have small/crumbing forwards

We have a lock down defender on the small forward

We have a ruckman

We then have this huge bucket of running players that occupy wings, flanks and midfield. One or two them may be hard taggers or run with players.

The harder bodied players occupy the midfield from day one - but we have even seen the small forward Gartlett with runs in the midfield.

The examples of Toumpas and Salem as flankers doesn't sit with me. They are just two more in the running player bucket.

I think Salem is a good case in point - Under Roos - used sparingly in his first year - out of the heavy action. Second year he has a position as a HBF'er - probably to really teach him his defensive side - I believe either next year or the year after he will sitting right in the middle of the ground as a mid for the opening bounce.

To define a player at recruiting time as a "flanker" is just not accurate - that is how many have turned out ( many have turned to be really good playing centre half bench and left right out)

Toumpas is a bust nutbean three years in and he struggles to play four quarters at Casey.

Out of contract this year unless there is a lot of improvement he will playing with Glenelg in 2016.

Whilst I understand what you are getting at if the names of those U18 flankers were Fyfe, Sidebottom or Rockliff we would not have this thread. This is not about the type of player we chose but our inability to see what they would become and develop them appropriately to fit with a strategy.

These days a creative half back flanker is as important as an inside mid. Salem is the closest thing that we've had to one since Woewodin started his career, before moving into the midfield. I would have been rapt if any of Morton, Grimes, Bennell, Strauss, Tapscott, Blease, Maric, or Toumpas had of turned out to be a classy half back flanker that we needed.

  On 12/05/2015 at 01:35, old dee said:

Toumpas is a bust nutbean three years in and he struggles to play four quarters at Casey.

Out of contract this year unless there is a lot of improvement he will playing with Glenelg in 2016.

I am not arguing if he is a bust or not - the premise of the post is we recruited "flankers". Toumpas/Salem and a myriad of others are recruited as mids. Very few players these days are recruited as flankers as running players are usually described as mid and rotated or in salems case educated through the flanks. My belief is Salem will be in midfield sooner than later . one positional flankers like Isaac Smith are rare these days.

  On 12/05/2015 at 05:32, nutbean said:

I am not arguing if he is a bust or not - the premise of the post is we recruited "flankers". Toumpas/Salem and a myriad of others are recruited as mids. Very few players these days are recruited as flankers as running players are usually described as mid and rotated or in salems case educated through the flanks. My belief is Salem will be in midfield sooner than later . one positional flankers like Isaac Smith are rare these days.

Call me crazy but I still have faith in Toumpas. So far, he isn't what we should have got with a pick 4. However, against Sydney I saw some promising signs. Adding to that, his body looks far more mature this season and the knocks on his toughness were wrong, IMO. One thing you'll always get with him is good disposal efficiency, but he needs to find more of the ball.

No longer hoping for a star, but I still think he can become a solid contributor to the 22.

  On 12/05/2015 at 15:33, Django said:

Call me crazy but I still have faith in Toumpas. So far, he isn't what we should have got with a pick 4. However, against Sydney I saw some promising signs. Adding to that, his body looks far more mature this season and the knocks on his toughness were wrong, IMO. One thing you'll always get with him is good disposal efficiency, but he needs to find more of the ball.

No longer hoping for a star, but I still think he can become a solid contributor to the 22.

Good morning "Crazy"

  On 12/05/2015 at 16:39, old dee said:

Good morning "Crazy"

I compare him to Salem and his trajectory.

Would you trade out Salem at seasons end ? no.

Unless Jimmy produces much more by season end, I am not saying he will be cut, I suggest that we would be open to a decent offer on him.

  On 12/05/2015 at 15:33, Django said:

Call me crazy but I still have faith in Toumpas. So far, he isn't what we should have got with a pick 4. However, against Sydney I saw some promising signs. Adding to that, his body looks far more mature this season and the knocks on his toughness were wrong, IMO. One thing you'll always get with him is good disposal efficiency, but he needs to find more of the ball.

No longer hoping for a star, but I still think he can become a solid contributor to the 22.

I think it'll take a while yet, because he's having to learn to win hardball while on the list, not coming in as an established contested ball animal, but I think he'll eventually do it to a competent level, allowing him to get game time and let his other strengths show through.

  On 12/05/2015 at 23:07, nutbean said:

I compare him to Salem and his trajectory.

Would you trade out Salem at seasons end ? no.

Unless Jimmy produces much more by season end, I am not saying he will be cut, I suggest that we would be open to a decent offer on him.

Not sure there would be one nutbean.

However he is out of contract so that adds extra pressure.

The upside for him is there are about ten others in front of him in the reject queue.

That might just save him.

  On 13/05/2015 at 00:43, old dee said:

Not sure there would be one nutbean.

However he is out of contract so that adds extra pressure.

The upside for him is there are about ten others in front of him in the reject queue.

That might just save him.

One mans trash is another mans treasure !

I will be no means say he was good on the Weekend but i saw glimpses.