government > industry subsidies

[dee-luded 2,959]

Abbott you can't have it your political way,,, Pork Barreling.

knocked back the Car Industry

knocked back the SPC -Ardmona

now the cattlemen want $Billion$

start to put some tariffs in-place now where other countries are not playing by the same rules.

Free Agency cannot work properly anyway, as as we need to have Quarantine, from overseas biological diseases.

we need manufacturing in Australia.

IF a World major Recession hits, &/or War breaks out in the Middle East; Oil prices will SkyRocket, causing Shipping charges to blow out of the water... pardon the PUN.

imports will more than double in price.

[Dee Fan 3,247]

Abbott you can't have it your political way,,, Pork Barreling.

You mean like this?

https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2004/10/koda-o06.html

The Enterprise Bargaining Agreement struck by Kodak with the unions at the plant in 2000 ushered in a process of never-ending restructuring. It stated: “to be competitive on a world wide basis, the Company needs to be able to continuously improve the productivity and efficiency of its operations by ensuring that production equipment operates on a continuous basis over a 24 hour period ...”

The company used the same threat of closure to pressure governments for financial handouts. In 1989, the Hawke federal Labor government gave Kodak a $36 million dollar subsidy, and the company was one of seven multinational corporations to share a $63 million subsidy package from the Victorian state government in 2002-2003.

How much would that be worth now, $36m in 1989.

[dee-luded 2,959]

Abbott you can't have it your political way,,, Pork Barreling.

You mean like this?

https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2004/10/koda-o06.html

The Enterprise Bargaining Agreement struck by Kodak with the unions at the plant in 2000 ushered in a process of never-ending restructuring. It stated: “to be competitive on a world wide basis, the Company needs to be able to continuously improve the productivity and efficiency of its operations by ensuring that production equipment operates on a continuous basis over a 24 hour period ...”

The company used the same threat of closure to pressure governments for financial handouts. In 1989, the Hawke federal Labor government gave Kodak a $36 million dollar subsidy, and the company was one of seven multinational corporations to share a $63 million subsidy package from the Victorian state government in 2002-2003.

How much would that be worth now, $36m in 1989.

a lot more value, than all the outsourcing in the world does.

The greed that is led by todays stock market led public companies, taking margins, fistfull over fistfull.

Selling off their countries, & their fellow australian comrades, for a few cents more. farmers, manufacturing workers, tradies.

all souled down for imported 4WD's & fashion.

this is where the western economies have been led by these stock markets. more margin, more margin, more margin... go O/S.

Now, we have given our IT away, built our factories overseas, only to have the overseas countries trade us out of the water. brush us off the page. all because of greedy stocks wanting more value. big fish eat little fish. grow or get eaten.

Unless you are in a Co-Op, where everyone purchases from within their Co-Op. & not from O/S.

[mauriesy 7,357]

Two options:

1. CCA says OK, we'll upgrade it and keep it running. Then no dramas, all is well.

2. CCA closure because it's uneconomic and they refuse to put money into it. Will the community support required, tree pulling, restructuring, unemployment, loss of tax and downstream effect on other businesses (retailing etc.) cost more than $25 million? Or are we just going to stick slavishly to dry economic 'principle'?

CCA is not a benevolent institution that is obliged to keep poorly-performing divisions going. How big they are and what profit they make is immaterial to one loss-making division.

The difficulty here is that it's an already-depressed rural community, a whole town of 20,000, and thousands of upstream producers who are in the firing line.

Maybe the best option under option 2. is for an SPC buy-out and turning it back into a co-operative run by all the local fruit producers, with some government support (interest-free loans) to upscale and modernise.

It's a bit disingenuous to compare a dying, uncompetitive industry like photographic film to a food product with a good future market. If we are to be the 'food bowl of Asia' as is often proclaimed, then we need to be better than close down processing.

I'm all for 'personal responsibility', as long as it also cuts out generous middle-class welfare, obscene parental leave schemes, tax breaks for school costs and negative gearing, diesel fuel rebates and drought assistance.

[Dee Fan 3,247]

Two options:

1. CCA says OK, we'll upgrade it and keep it running. Then no dramas, all is well.

2. CCA closure because it's uneconomic and they refuse to put money into it. Will the community support required, tree pulling, restructuring, unemployment, loss of tax and downstream effect on other businesses (retailing etc.) cost more than $25 million? Or are we just going to stick slavishly to dry economic 'principle'?

CCA is not a benevolent institution that is obliged to keep poorly-performing divisions going. How big they are and what profit they make is immaterial to one loss-making division.

The difficulty here is that it's an already-depressed rural community, a whole town of 20,000, and thousands of upstream producers who are in the firing line.

Maybe the best option under option 2. is for an SPC buy-out and turning it back into a co-operative run by all the local fruit producers, with some government support (interest-free loans) to upscale and modernise.

It's a bit disingenuous to compare a dying, uncompetitive industry like photographic film to a food product with a good future market. If we are to be the 'food bowl of Asia' as is often proclaimed, then we need to be better than close down processing.

I'm all for 'personal responsibility', as long as it also cuts out generous middle-class welfare, obscene parental leave schemes, tax breaks for school costs and negative gearing, diesel fuel rebates and drought assistance.

Wasn't there an employee buyout of the company quite some time ago when they were going to close because they were losing money?

When Kodak were given the money the future of film wasn't as bad as it appears to be now; so why would it be disingenuous to compare bailouts?

Whilst there are other countries that can produce the same food products as us at a vastly lower cost we will never be the food bowl of Asia; that's just a pipe dream. And I don't care who said it so save your energy and don't bother looking for quotes from Abbott about it.

[mauriesy 7,357]

When Kodak were given the money the future of film wasn't as bad as it appears to be now; so why would it be disingenuous to compare bailouts?

Kodak operated for a further 15 years after the 1989 'bail-out', with jobs for over 600 families. That could well justify the cost. They closed their Coburg film plant in late 2004, when it was certainly under pressure from digital photography.

Whilst there are other countries that can produce the same food products as us at a vastly lower cost we will never be the food bowl of Asia; that's just a pipe dream. And I don't care who said it so save your energy and don't bother looking for quotes from Abbott about it.

It's been said by governments of all persuasions. It's been an objective for decades. Anything wrong with aiming for value-added exports? I'd have thought you'd applaud it.

It's been achieved to quite a reasonable degree in wheat, dairy and beef.

Edited February 4, 2014 by mauriesy

[dee-luded 2,959]

Wasn't there an employee buyout of the company quite some time ago when they were going to close because they were losing money?

When Kodak were given the money the future of film wasn't as bad as it appears to be now; so why would it be disingenuous to compare bailouts?

Whilst there are other countries that can produce the same food products as us at a vastly lower cost we will never be the food bowl of Asia; that's just a pipe dream. And I don't care who said it so save your energy and don't bother looking for quotes from Abbott about it.

because digital came in & computers took off since 'MS Windows 95' entered the scene. with improving printers.

technology waits for no-one.

but employment, even if we all work 30 Hr weeks for less, is a better way to go.

& get rid of the inflationary property spikes that cause meaningless high property prices, that are no good for our society, but bad for the young.

Edited February 4, 2014 by dee-luded

[Dee Fan 3,247]

Kodak operated for a further 15 years after the 1989 'bail-out', with jobs for over 600 families. That could well justify the cost. They closed their Coburg film plant in late 2004, when it was certainly under pressure from digital photography.

It's been said by governments of all persuasions. It's been an objective for decades. Anything wrong with aiming for value-added exports? I'd have thought you'd applaud it.

It's been achieved to quite a reasonable degree in wheat, dairy and beef.

I'm aware that Kodak continued but that wasn't the basis of my post it was to show dee luded that both sides of politics play, as he calls it, the pork barrelling game.

Personally I'd be happy if the Fed Gov contributed the money, I hate to see industries in Australia die.

I have no problem with us value adding and if we could be the bread basket of anywhere I'd applaud it; problem is we have much higher costs here and it is difficult for us to compete. My major client is a Dairy and they are exporting $m's to Japan and China and it's growing, but they have to compete with New Zealand who are more efficient and have free trade agreements in place.

[dee-luded 2,959]

I'm aware that Kodak continued but that wasn't the basis of my post it was to show dee luded that both sides of politics play, as he calls it, the pork barrelling game.

Personally I'd be happy if the Fed Gov contributed the money, I hate to see industries in Australia die.

I have no problem with us value adding and if we could be the bread basket of anywhere I'd applaud it; problem is we have much higher costs here and it is difficult for us to compete. My major client is a Dairy and they are exporting $m's to Japan and China and it's growing, but they have to compete with New Zealand who are more efficient and have free trade agreements in place.

Of course they do, thats the problem. Once its been done, a precedent has been set for a new low. like trying to use media mates to effect our democracy & elections.

but this is really about the loss of our home grown industries.

worse than 18 years ago when we lost Arnotts & other Aussie brands to the Stock market Muncher.

[Hannibal 5,814]

Two options:

1. CCA says OK, we'll upgrade it and keep it running. Then no dramas, all is well.

2. CCA closure because it's uneconomic and they refuse to put money into it. Will the community support required, tree pulling, restructuring, unemployment, loss of tax and downstream effect on other businesses (retailing etc.) cost more than $25 million? Or are we just going to stick slavishly to dry economic 'principle'?

CCA is not a benevolent institution that is obliged to keep poorly-performing divisions going. How big they are and what profit they make is immaterial to one loss-making division.

The difficulty here is that it's an already-depressed rural community, a whole town of 20,000, and thousands of upstream producers who are in the firing line.

Maybe the best option under option 2. is for an SPC buy-out and turning it back into a co-operative run by all the local fruit producers, with some government support (interest-free loans) to upscale and modernise.

It's a bit disingenuous to compare a dying, uncompetitive industry like photographic film to a food product with a good future market. If we are to be the 'food bowl of Asia' as is often proclaimed, then we need to be better than close down processing.

I'm all for 'personal responsibility', as long as it also cuts out generous middle-class welfare, obscene parental leave schemes, tax breaks for school costs and negative gearing, diesel fuel rebates and drought assistance.

Why should tax payers keep bailing out inefficient businesses ? You can't keep propping up industries hand over fist.

Bet the union got them great unsustainable conditions, which has no doubt helped the workers cause.

[mauriesy 7,357]

Why should tax payers keep bailing out inefficient businesses ? You can't keep propping up industries hand over fist.

Bet the union got them great unsustainable conditions, which has no doubt helped the workers cause.

1. Under what criteria is SPC 'inefficient'? Please state them.

2. Why is the first port of call 'workers pay and conditions'?

In a statement today by CCA/SPC, their managing director said it had made "significant improvements" in productivity in recent times and had cut jobs by a third.

"Our employees are aware of the critical and urgent need to transform our business and the majority have responded in practical and financial ways to lift productivity to help secure our long-term future in the Goulburn Valley."

He said its problems were not from labour costs or productivity, but rather a high dollar which hurt exports and allowed a "flood" of cheap imports since 2009.

"In that period market share of private label canned fruit grew to 58 per cent today, while SPC Ardmona canned fruit share declined to 33 per cent. Our export market volumes declined by 90 per cent in the past five years.

Other Abbott government claims were rejected by the company in a statement claiming to provide "the facts on workers' allowances".

It said there was little overtime at SPC Ardmona, and the company had in 2012 reduced redundancy provisions and stopped sick leave from being cashed out.

It also denied claims that workers get nine weeks of paid leave a year, saying they are paid 20 days annual leave while rostered days off are accrued throughout the year so they will not be taken at peak season.

Stone has called out Abbott and Abetz over their statements about SPC worker's conditions, which are basically incorrect.

What caused the high dollar? Probably the resources boom and the large cash inflow from foreign investors, overseas currency speculation linked to high interest rates, incentives to invest in property such as first-home buyers grants and negative gearing pushing up housing prices.

How is SPC, along with other primary manufacturing exporters, going to manage that? Third-world wages? Is that all you can come up with?

IMHO, what we're seeing with SPC may be a classic case of 'Dutch disease' ... the massive increase in resources spending has coincided with a decline in manufacturing and agriculture, because the increase in revenues from natural resources or inflows of foreign investment makes the currency stronger. So our other exports become more expensive, making our manufacturing sector less competitive.

I'm not suggesting the company should be 'bailed out' at all. But there may be a case for some assistance until conditions are more favourable. The lessening of the mining boom will lower the dollar, perhaps down to sustainable levels for companies such as SPC. Do we take the punt and let them disappear, or bide time for a few more years in hope?

If CCA closes SPC, what would be your plan, as a 'rightist', for the fall-out in Shepparton, the Goulburn Valley and its thousands of growers? Total apathy under your dry economic model? Just allow imports to increase to 100% because overseas producers are 'efficient' (i.e. have a better exchange rate)?

$25 milllion might be cheap by comparison.

Edited February 4, 2014 by mauriesy

[daisycutter 29,740]

well explained maurie

the dollar has shrunk considerably by 20% in the last 6 months. i wonder what effect that will have and how long it will take to have an effect

another solution might be a local buyout especially if cca are going to write down the business, with government providing cheap loan money

on the issue of efficiency (relative I know) CCA wanted the $50M to part finance a restructure, i presume for efficiency reasons

you're right about the fallout being a more costly exercise, but someone needs to establish a decent case for longer term viability or it just delays the hard decision by a few years

the government (feds) needs to be doing more to reach a resolution and not just washing their hands of it

[Hannibal 5,814]

1. Under what criteria is SPC 'inefficient'? Please state them.

2. Why is the first port of call 'workers pay and conditions'?

In a statement today by CCA/SPC, their managing director said it had made "significant improvements" in productivity in recent times and had cut jobs by a third.

"Our employees are aware of the critical and urgent need to transform our business and the majority have responded in practical and financial ways to lift productivity to help secure our long-term future in the Goulburn Valley."

He said its problems were not from labour costs or productivity, but rather a high dollar which hurt exports and allowed a "flood" of cheap imports since 2009.

"In that period market share of private label canned fruit grew to 58 per cent today, while SPC Ardmona canned fruit share declined to 33 per cent. Our export market volumes declined by 90 per cent in the past five years.

Other Abbott government claims were rejected by the company in a statement claiming to provide "the facts on workers' allowances".

It said there was little overtime at SPC Ardmona, and the company had in 2012 reduced redundancy provisions and stopped sick leave from being cashed out.

It also denied claims that workers get nine weeks of paid leave a year, saying they are paid 20 days annual leave while rostered days off are accrued throughout the year so they will not be taken at peak season.

Stone has called out Abbott and Abetz over their statements about SPC worker's conditions, which are basically incorrect.

What caused the high dollar? Probably the resources boom and the large cash inflow from foreign investors, overseas currency speculation linked to high interest rates, incentives to invest in property such as first-home buyers grants and negative gearing pushing up housing prices.

How is SPC, along with other primary manufacturing exporters, going to manage that? Third-world wages? Is that all you can come up with?

IMHO, what we're seeing with SPC may be a classic case of 'Dutch disease' ... the massive increase in resources spending has coincided with a decline in manufacturing and agriculture, because the increase in revenues from natural resources or inflows of foreign investment makes the currency stronger. So our other exports become more expensive, making our manufacturing sector less competitive.

I'm not suggesting the company should be 'bailed out' at all. But there may be a case for some assistance until conditions are more favourable. The lessening of the mining boom will lower the dollar, perhaps down to sustainable levels for companies such as SPC. Do we take the punt and let them disappear, or bide time for a few more years in hope?

If CCA closes SPC, what would be your plan, as a 'rightist', for the fall-out in Shepparton, the Goulburn Valley and its thousands of growers? Total apathy under your dry economic model? Just allow imports to increase to 100% because overseas producers are 'efficient' (i.e. have a better exchange rate)?

$25 milllion might be cheap by comparison.

OK, it's efficient.

It's either viable, or not.

Seems not.

[Dee Fan 3,247]

I'm not suggesting that the workers at SPC are overpaid, I don't know enough about their conditions and pay structures, but as a Nation our workers are overpaid and that is in most industries and businesses.

In my industry you need to pay upwards of $65k plus super to get someone who is barely qualified to do the job and if you want someone with a bit more and a reasonable work ethic you are looking at $100k plus. It's just sheer stupidity, we get more and more, prices go higher and higher and industries become un competitive and close.

Kids can't buy a house because the prices are going through the roof and the deposit gets further and further from them.

[Biffen 12,947]

Those Holden workers and those peach packers have had it too good for too long.pity the bankers didn't get a slap over the face when they came running to govt cap in hand.

[Earl Hood 6,101]

Those Holden workers and those peach packers have had it too good for too long.pity the bankers didn't get a slap over the face when they came running to govt cap in hand.

Biff we all know we need to bring back Workchoices mark 2. If we can just take the big stick to the SPC types, the cleaners who cant speak english well, the casual workers, I reckon we turn the whole economy around. I am sure the employer associations, with all their experience and knowledge, could not be wrong. They would know the real reasons why we struggle in so many industries. Nothing to do with the high dollar, under investment in capital improvement, f*** all investment in skills and training, f***all innovation, leadership and whatever.

This is what is holding us back, these semi skilled fat cats!

[Dee Fan 3,247]

It's a pity some of the more rabid anti Morrison posters on here can't do the same; let's wait for the facts to came out before we claim "barbarism".

http://www.theage.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/abc-head-mark-scott-admits-mistakes-over-report-claiming-navy-inflicted-asylum-seeker-burns-20140204-31z31.html

ABC head Mark Scott admits mistakes over report claiming navy inflicted asylum seeker burns

[Dee Fan 3,247]

Biff we all know we need to bring back Workchoices mark 2. If we can just take the big stick to the SPC types, the cleaners who cant speak english well, the casual workers, I reckon we turn the whole economy around. I am sure the employer associations, with all their experience and knowledge, could not be wrong. They would know the real reasons why we struggle in so many industries. Nothing to do with the high dollar, under investment in capital improvement, f*** all investment in skills and training, f***all innovation, leadership and whatever.

This is what is holding us back, these semi skilled fat cats!

Do you actually employ anyone?

Do you have any idea what the cost of labour is now days?

Do you have any idea what other costs there are on running a business? Probably not.

I would never advocate the return of Workchoices, it was bad policy, Tony Abbott is on record as being one of the few that opposed it, but there has to be some sort of restraint shown by both sides.

I never agreed with Hawke but the price and wage accord was a good idea, wages are out of control as are prices; one follows the other.

When you have to pay $55+ per hour plus a call out fee for a plumber a sparky or a handyman, you know it's getting out of hand. I have a company that handles my IT and they charge me $200 per hour casual rate or $150 if I buy bulk hours; that's lunacy when the work is done on line and the employee doing the job is in their mid twenties with little experience. And yes I've looked around.

My 32 year old son is on an obscene amount of money and he's a systems engineer with large company.

Something has to give or it will all come crashing down. I started a thread on Demonology in July 2007 saying we were either in, or approaching a recession and was decried by all and sundry; in 2008 we had the GFC.

[Earl Hood 6,101]

It's a pity some of the more rabid anti Morrison posters on here can't do the same; let's wait for the facts to came out before we claim "barbarism".

http://www.theage.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/abc-head-mark-scott-admits-mistakes-over-report-claiming-navy-inflicted-asylum-seeker-burns-20140204-31z31.html

ABC head Mark Scott admits mistakes over report claiming navy inflicted asylum seeker burns

So tell me Robbie when will any facts come out of Morrison's office, pray tell us? The ABC reported, as well as others on allegations about injuries to turned back refugees. They had no avenues to confirm the allegations with the Government because Morrison is too important to talk to mere journos, we know that. So journos are left to talk to the Indonesisian end. Why do you expect?

My guess is that something did happen in the boat turn around. Some heavy handed actions took place but we will probably never know. Very reminiscent of Peter Reith and the so called children overboard. We have never learned the truth there, though most most right thinking citizens hold him in utter contempt for his lies. He has little credibility with any one outside the current Government of course.

[Earl Hood 6,101]

Do you actually employ anyone?

Do you have any idea what the cost of labour is now days?

Do you have any idea what other costs there are on running a business? Probably not.

I would never advocate the return of Workchoices, it was bad policy, Tony Abbott is on record as being one of the few that opposed it, but there has to be some sort of restraint shown by both sides.

I never agreed with Hawke but the price and wage accord was a good idea, wages are out of control as are prices; one follows the other.

When you have to pay $55+ per hour plus a call out fee for a plumber a sparky or a handyman, you know it's getting out of hand. I have a company that handles my IT and they charge me $200 per hour casual rate or $150 if I buy bulk hours; that's lunacy when the work is done on line and the employee doing the job is in their mid twenties with little experience. And yes I've looked around.

My 32 year old son is on an obscene amount of money and he's a systems engineer with large company.

Something has to give or it will all come crashing down. I started a thread on Demonology in July 2007 saying we were either in, or approaching a recession and was decried by all and sundry; in 2008 we had the GFC.

I still think it gets back to supply and demand. We have a rising demand for IT skills, plumbers, electricians, engineers, you name it. We have failed miserably in the last 30 years to train enough of them. We have brought in large numbers of skilled migrants but it is still not enough to meet demand. Those skills are in short supply and at the moment there is no competition from overseas but it will come one day in the engineering consulting area perhaps. There are thousands of trained professionals in India and China looking for opportunities here so one day that will happen and costs will likely fall.

Basic trades I think will hold there price because parents still urge their kids to get a degree while the real opportunities could be in the trades. Demand for the right trades will remain high and they will be paid well.

Governments made the decisions in the 80's to sell off, or break up the big utilities, SECV, Gas and Fuel, MMBW for efficiency reasons but there was always going to be a cost, training. These state government organisations as well as other subsidised companies such as GMH did all the apprentiships and Graduate Engineer placements. Once they were nobbled the 80's

[Dee Fan 3,247]

So tell me Robbie when will any facts come out of Morrison's office, pray tell us? The ABC reported, as well as others on allegations about injuries to turned back refugees. They had no avenues to confirm the allegations with the Government because Morrison is too important to talk to mere journos, we know that. So journos are left to talk to the Indonesisian end. Why do you expect?

My guess is that something did happen in the boat turn around. Some heavy handed actions took place but we will probably never know. Very reminiscent of Peter Reith and the so called children overboard. We have never learned the truth there, though most most right thinking citizens hold him in utter contempt for his lies. He has little credibility with any one outside the current Government of course.

In the absence of facts you decide to make it up?

There was a story by one witness, reported on the radio, who said the Navy did nothing, but let's pretend and besmirch them anyway.

[DemonFrog 1,356]

Of course they do, thats the problem. Once its been done, a precedent has been set for a new low. like trying to use media mates to effect our democracy & elections.

but this is really about the loss of our home grown industries.

worse than 18 years ago when we lost Arnotts & other Aussie brands to the Stock market Muncher.

Sorry DL but I have no sympathy for Arnotts as they did the same thing to our local biscuit maker (Mills & Ware). Purchased the business and then closed it down.

But we do need our Vegemite back LOL

[hardtack 10,627]

In the absence of facts you decide to make it up?

There was a story by one witness, reported on the radio, who said the Navy did nothing, but let's pretend and besmirch them anyway.

I may be wrong, but weren't there also witnesses who supposedly did see the navy do something?

[Dee Fan 3,247]

I may be wrong, but weren't there also witnesses who supposedly did see the navy do something?

I don't know, I haven't heard that, all I heard was a report on the radio, several times, that a witness had come forward and said the Sailors did nothing wrong.

There was also the suggestion that they burnt their hands trying to disable their boat, but that was just a suggestion.

The Government are not happy with the ABC and their feeble apology and they have now demanded a full and proper apology. Hell will probably freeze over before the ABC admit to a distortion of the truth.

http://www.news.com.au/national/julie-bishop-says-abc-owes-navy-apology-over-asylum-seeker-abuse-claims/story-fncynjr2-1226818231208

Edited February 4, 2014 by RobbieF

[dee-luded 2,959]

Why should tax payers keep bailing out inefficient businesses ? You can't keep propping up industries hand over fist.

Bet the union got them great unsustainable conditions, which has no doubt helped the workers cause.

because it keeps the tax payers employed, so they can keep paying taxes instead of collecting their residuals.

the unsustainable has nothing to do with health & safety.

the unsustainable is the floating dollar in a world of in equal tariffs & subsidies. & peasant wages.

here is an example, econmic pyramid

destroying our manufacturing industry will leave us thus; an island in peril