Bombers scandal: charged, <redacted> and <infracted>

[biggestred 5,014]

http://m.afl.com.au/news/2014-07-09/its-all-about-the-essendon-players

Damien barrett recycles caro

[biggestred 5,014]

http://m.afl.com.au/news/2014-07-09/its-all-about-the-essendon-players

Damien barrett recycles caro

Yet Essendon now will happily sheet all blame back to just a few people. It wants us all to believe that Stephen Dank is to blame for virtually everything, and that he is a man not to be trusted.

Yet as it discredits him at every turn, it trusts him, and demands that everyone else do so too, when he says he didn't give Essendon players WADA-banned drugs.

[beelzebub 23,313]

http://m.afl.com.au/news/2014-07-09/its-all-about-the-essendon-players

Damien barrett recycles caro

lol

[Whispering_Jack 29,764]

To be fair to Caro and Barrett, they're at least trying.

On the other hand, Robbo, Chip Le Grand and a few others should be embarrassed about their work and I read a real stinker today from John Ralph that I wouldn't use for toilet paper.

[beelzebub 23,313]

To be fair to Caro and Barrett, they're at least trying.

to be fair to us they are Both very TRYING !!!!

[beelzebub 23,313]

more "Comment"

Dank could have answered the one burning question

"If there was one question Stephen Dank could have answered during his radio interview with friend and former Adelaide Crows coach Graham Cornes on Tuesday night, it was this.

Dank was asked whether he could detail what peptides had been given to the Essendon players during the club's 2011-12 supplements program. He was asked specifically about Thymosin beta 4, the banned drug the Australian Sports Anti-Doping Authority alleges was given to the 34 former and current players.

Dank's response: "Obviously, I can't because of the impending court action."

Well, that's not right. According to lawyers consulted by Fairfax Media on Wednesday, if Dank knew categorically what had been administered, and those drugs were not prohibited, then there was nothing which could "prevent or inhibit" him clearing up the question those interested in this saga want to know.

Instead, Dank provided a general response, declaring all drugs had been WADA approved, leaving listeners to wonder yet again where things really sat in this football (and political) mess.

This appears to be the lie of the land*. Dank has told the Australian Crime Commission he had not administered anything illegal, declaring last year "they said they didn't think that I'd done anything wrong". The players are of the belief they were given nothing illegal but, if they had, it was only because they had been duped."

*how appropriate if Freudian !! lol

But it does indeed highlight the nonsense of this. If he could categorically ( and honestly ) swear that it wasnt Beta then why wouldnt you. You can still do so publicly. if its the truth.

That hole's getting deeper Dank !!

[binman 42,618]

To be fair to Caro and Barrett, they're at least trying.

On the other hand, Robbo, Chip Le Grand and a few others should be embarrassed about their work and I read a real stinker today from John Ralph that I wouldn't use for toilet paper.

it was an absolute shocker wasn't it. He made some point criticising what he called the football commentariare (or some such thing) that made no sense whatsoever. Who edits that paper?

[beelzebub 23,313]

To be fair to Caro and Barrett, they're at least trying.

On the other hand, Robbo, Chip Le Grand and a few others should be embarrassed about their work and I read a real stinker today from John Ralph that I wouldn't use for toilet paper.

Ralph:

"What is absolutely fundamental to closure is the public’s ability to weigh the evidence on each side and make up their own mind on the only remaining question that still really matters.

Did Essendon players take performance-enhancing drugs?"

Ralph would have this adjudged by the public in the open court of opinion. Whilst we the public are interested its not for us to actually don the wig in this instance. There is a far more appropriate arena and thats where it is at.

The Windy Hill lackeys can't abide this as they hold no sway in a court. Its entirely predictable that theyre would be a double standard applied by the biased, agenda driven puppets ( muppets ) . They call for transparency and yet those they seek to do bidding for have gone to extraordinary lengths to obfuscate what really transpired.

I find it odd if not bizarre that Ralph would even ask if they ( the players ) took performance enhancing drugs as it seems to this reader that that isnt even in doubt and that the basis of contention by many are the knowledge of taking them or who's actually responsible. Again an attempt to divert from the true course of discovery.

I dont think Middleton will be conned. We aren't

Edited July 9, 2014 by beelzebub

[beelzebub 23,313]

To be honest I dont spend much time reading other clubs fan sites even though the Blitz would be fun currently, though they often shut the fun parts down lol

The article referred to http://demonland.com/forums/index.php?/topic/32184-the-wilson-file-the-arrogance-at-the-heart-of-the-innuendo/page-67#entry954611

as well as the heads up provided by AofB http://demonland.com/forums/index.php?/topic/32184-the-wilson-file-the-arrogance-at-the-heart-of-the-innuendo/?p=954679

got me reading the BF thread. It of itself provides a fascinating insight as to how many view this whole saga. .

It seems to me there are simply those that are Hird apologists. They tow the line , indeed cast and recast the line in foppish fawning of their beloved ( He can do no wrong, and if he did wrong it wasnt his fault etc etc ). There are the other Bomber folk who seem to blindly follow/swallow what the Fops spin. There seem few Essendon folk that are realistic and understand bad bad bad things happened . There maybe more than I suggest but they seem to be inordinately quiet in the main.

There are then the rest of us(other clubs, footy fans in general ) who seem incredulous at the stance taken by Essendon ( the club ) as well as much of its hird and annoyed that despite often reasoned argument that the apologists cant cant see shlt for clay, but then they dont want to..

I suppose for many of them Bomber folk it must be like finding out your favourite uncle just got done for something very bad and you just cant bring yourself to accept it because of your deep seated feelings for him. I suspect though deep down they must know

I dont read BF as a rule but the thread is quite illuminating . The Essendon propaganda machine is in danger of blowing up its working that hard.

[Whispering_Jack 29,764]

more "Comment"

Dank could have answered the one burning question"If there was one question Stephen Dank could have answered during his radio interview with friend and former Adelaide Crows coach Graham Cornes on Tuesday night, it was this.

Dank was asked whether he could detail what peptides had been given to the Essendon players during the club's 2011-12 supplements program. He was asked specifically about Thymosin beta 4, the banned drug the Australian Sports Anti-Doping Authority alleges was given to the 34 former and current players.

Dank's response: "Obviously, I can't because of the impending court action."

Well, that's not right. According to lawyers consulted by Fairfax Media on Wednesday, if Dank knew categorically what had been administered, and those drugs were not prohibited, then there was nothing which could "prevent or inhibit" him clearing up the question those interested in this saga want to know.

That's exactly the point. Dank's response was a cop out. There has been nothing to prevent him from coming out and telling the truth about the nature of the drugs he injected into the players. The fact that he chooses this particular answer strongly suggests to me that he only told the truth on TB4 to Age journo Nick McKenzie when he didn't know it was S2.

[What 18,810]

the recent articles by Wilson, Barrett and McKenzie just confirm once again that its almost the end game for Essendon

Love or hate Wilson and Barrett, they would have better sources inside AFL house than an other journo, Wilson especially

And Mckenzie is a great investigative journalist

Its game over for Essendon, and they surely must know the writings well and truly on the wall. They cant get any bigger clues than those recent articles

Only a matter of time before Mark Slobinson, Rohan COnnolly and Chip LeGRand shut up shop too. They are fighting a losing cause and always have been

[beelzebub 23,313]

It makes for entertaining spectating watching the Slytherins squirm.

I think the change of tempo and tenet from ASADA has caught the naughty lot a little wrong footed. So much dancing did Essendon do around the legality or prohibition of AOD 9604 that it took their eyes off the ball and they themselves got blindsided when it all became about Thymosin Beta 4 ( TB4 )

The new spin is that the club only used the 'good' Thymosin and not the "GOOD STUFF" Thymosin. The former being Thymomodulin and the latter TB4.

The current view of Essendon , i.e todays bs is that the club only used Thymomodulin in this pharmaceutical freak show and that this was the drug supposedly referred to on the waivers vicariously as 'Thymosin"

Two things i have difficulty in this regard. Firstly how does this marry with the long held rant from Essendon that they dont know what was really taken ? So they do or they don't "

Secondly it would be worth revisiting this article The Science of Stepehen Dank for in it are such gems as

NM: Thymosin Beta 4 – why was that used in Essendon players given there is an opinion from a doctor or researcher and other scientists that its effects are uncertain? (note: The AFL believes it has a strong circumstantial case that TB-4 was used on players.)

SD: That's not totally true Nick because, with all due respect, right, there is good data – very good data – that supports Thymosin Beta 4 in the immune system.

NM: OK, why give it to all Essendon players if only some of them had colds and flu?

SD: Well, the point is that there is a degree of immunosuppression after a game or a hard training week, right. Often times the ability to back up next week is decreased by the hit on the immune system.

NM: Did you see any indications in Essendon players that it actually helped them?

SD: Well apart from the fact they won 11 out of their first 14, right, and we did regular bloods [blood tests] . . . at the end of the day I was very happy with the science, I was very happy after working a long time in football, right, that there are periods of malaise which are possibly related to sub-clinical flus and sub-clinical colds, right, which can affect performance. When we want to be honest, Nick, how much performance data is there out there on Actovegin [calf's blood extract)]

NM: There's a lot, isn't there?

SD: No there's not! So, you know, you've got to extrapolate from the science.

NM: How often were Essendon players taking Thymosin Beta 4?

SD: [Explains the dosage level but asks that this be not published].

NM: ASADA has just released on its website that Thymosin Beta 4 is prohibited in all routes and out of competition.

SD: Well, that must have just only come in this year and I will get someone to speak to ASADA about that. That's just mind-blowing.

NM: Thymosin Beta 4, they must have just banned that.

SD: I think they've only just put that in to back up their case.

The problem for Dank, for Hird and the 34 sacrificial lambs is that the Horse Drug TB 4 was banned and Dank is on record for two things ( at l;east )

1) admitting that TB4 was the version of Thymosin used

2) that the players ( and by association the club et al ) knew what they were taking

SLAM

DUNK !!!!!

Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/the-science-of-stephen-dank-20130823-2shhd.html#ixzz370x3HzZZ

[Bedraggled Dee 336]

I think the change of tempo and tenet from ASADA has caught the naughty lot a little wrong footed. So much dancing did Essendon do around the legality or prohibition of AOD 9604 that it took their eyes off the ball and they themselves got blindsided when it all became about Thymosin Beta 4 ( TB4 )

Not sure how they missed the TB4 angle BB. I assume they read Annex A to the Notice of Chrage from the AFL. It was pretty clear from there that TB4 was significant issue.

I thought they were also knackered for AOD and was worried about Trenners but obviously there were issues regarding ASADA advice and questions regarding its approval for use in humans through Dank using a compounding pharmacist that on balance convinced ASADA not to take action.

Nothing I have seen from any entitiy involved has changed my view that Dank treated WADA and ASADA rules with contempt and in his arrogance made a huge mistake. I think he bent the rules for years and saw himself as the font of all knowledge regarding sports physiology and saw ASADA and WADA as road blocks on the path to his version of enlightenment in sports performance. The Bombers bought his sales pitch and despite internal and external warnings ran full pelt towards the light and in the process have got burnt. This error of judgement can almost be forgiven and explained by an inexperienced head coach who was given way too much latitude due to his position within the Club, hence the AFL charges and penalties. What cant be forgiven is the beligerence and immoral response by the Bombers that has threatened the entire competition.

The suggestion by Essendon and its hangers that ASADA investigators (Lawyers and ex cops) have twisted and misreprented evidence acted illegally and deliberately used powers they dont have to gather evidence under duress is insulting and stupid. The case is there to be answered and I hope despite there protestations the Federal Court allows the case against the Bombers to proceed.

[Ted Lasso 19,280]

I think the change of tempo and tenet from ASADA has caught the naughty lot a little wrong footed. So much dancing did Essendon do around the legality or prohibition of AOD 9604 that it took their eyes off the ball and they themselves got blindsided when it all became about Thymosin Beta 4 ( TB4 )

Not sure how they missed the TB4 angle BB. I assume they read Annex A to the Notice of Chrage from the AFL. It was pretty clear from there that TB4 was significant issue.

I thought they were also knackered for AOD and was worried about Trenners but obviously there were issues regarding ASADA advice and questions regarding its approval for use in humans through Dank using a compounding pharmacist that on balance convinced ASADA not to take action.

Nothing I have seen from any entitiy involved has changed my view that Dank treated WADA and ASADA rules with contempt and in his arrogance made a huge mistake. I think he bent the rules for years and saw himself as the font of all knowledge regarding sports physiology and saw ASADA and WADA as road blocks on the path to his version of enlightenment in sports performance. The Bombers bought his sales pitch and despite internal and external warnings ran full pelt towards the light and in the process have got burnt. This error of judgement can almost be forgiven and explained by an inexperienced head coach who was given way too much latitude due to his position within the Club, hence the AFL charges and penalties. What cant be forgiven is the beligerence and immoral response by the Bombers that has threatened the entire competition.

The suggestion by Essendon and its hangers that ASADA investigators (Lawyers and ex cops) have twisted and misreprented evidence acted illegally and deliberately used powers they dont have to gather evidence under duress is insulting and stupid. The case is there to be answered and I hope despite there protestations the Federal Court allows the case against the Bombers to proceed.

Every Essendon supporter says to me " ASADA have nothing, if they have evidence why haven't they used it?"

I just reply with, the percentage of show cause notices that become infractions is stupidly high, meaning they don't issue them without evidence,

and ASADA won't show their hand until after they answer the show cause notices that they are so intent on avoiding.

I would have thought Danks comments alone would be enough to charge the club and the players based on the balance of probabilities?

[beelzebub 23,313]

Not sure how they missed the TB4 angle BB. I assume they read Annex A to the Notice of Chrage from the AFL. It was pretty clear from there that TB4 was significant issue.

Im not thinking they missed it just failed to keep focused on it. They were happy to try to lear all a merry dance down 9604 lane they obviously forgot that WADA/ASADA were concentrating elsewhere.

Seems to me those Windy folk are trying to build a house of mirrors where as most all can see it as clear glass

[Bedraggled Dee 336]

Your probably right, the focus on AOD was to draw focus away from TB4. You have to give the Bombers credit for manipulating all and sundry over this issue. I have been amazed how successful they have been at that. When this gets finalised the AFL360 numpties will look particularly stupid.

[Oneday 248]

From memory the show cause notices had to be responded to by July 11. Is this still the case or has there been yet another extension?

[Bedraggled Dee 336]

I think Middleton left it in the hands of ASADA under th belief that nothing would proceed untill his ruled on the matter. I assume ASADA will issue ad extension or suspend the process untill after the trial.

[hoopla 418]

http://m.afl.com.au/news/2014-07-09/its-all-about-the-essendon-players

Damien barrett recycles caro

I never thought I'd see the day - but credit where credit is due - Damien,, this is a superb piece of clear thinking which Mr Justice Middleton should use as the basis of his judgment!

The other day I walked into a discussion around the coffee machine. One Essendon supporter was bemoaning the fact that he kids were getting hammered around the playground at school by an increasing number of friends who are seeing Little's Essendon as a blind self-serving mob of cheats unashamedly trying to beat the system on a technicality.

Keep going the way you are Mr Little - and you really will create a " Little Essendon" to be known not as the Bombers but as the "MH 370s"

[beelzebub 23,313]

Kinda funny though .

The Windy Hill mob cry foul play by al land sundry (except themselves of course , they are just misunderstood ) and seek redress and vindication in court.

Fast forward and we head to court and the same Windy Hill mob now scream foul about what will be brought to ( and up in ) court and now seek to have as much as possibly ( thats potentially damning ) made inadmissible

Hird make out to be a victim of some conspiracy . I wonder if this is the same bloke who sought info as early as the start of this century on things like peptides , getting 'advice' of f Carter in the early early norties, looking into AOD and attended info briefings.

Its the oldest of conjurers tricks for the felon to redress as a victim and hope to be lost amongst the crowd.

Going to make a marvelous film one day

[Bedraggled Dee 336]

Whats the next step in the Federal Court case? Are there more direction hearings or are we now waiting for the trial in August?

Does anyone know what will happen to the documents obtained through disclosure? Are the documents presented in this case publicly availble?

[beelzebub 23,313]

I have a strange recollection that the Court has ordered/suggested mediation as the next step along the rocky road.

Nothing will come of that I'm sure

I might be wrong...( altogether) lol

[pitmaster 3,512]

To be honest I dont spend much time reading other clubs fan sites even though the Blitz would be fun currently, though they often shut the fun parts down lol

The article referred to http://demonland.com/forums/index.php?/topic/32184-the-wilson-file-the-arrogance-at-the-heart-of-the-innuendo/page-67#entry954611

as well as the heads up provided by AofB http://demonland.com/forums/index.php?/topic/32184-the-wilson-file-the-arrogance-at-the-heart-of-the-innuendo/?p=954679

got me reading the BF thread. It of itself provides a fascinating insight as to how many view this whole saga. .

It seems to me there are simply those that are Hird apologists. They tow the line , indeed cast and recast the line in foppish fawning of their beloved ( He can do no wrong, and if he did wrong it wasnt his fault etc etc ). There are the other Bomber folk who seem to blindly follow/swallow what the Fops spin. There seem few Essendon folk that are realistic and understand bad bad bad things happened . There maybe more than I suggest but they seem to be inordinately quiet in the main.

There are then the rest of us(other clubs, footy fans in general ) who seem incredulous at the stance taken by Essendon ( the club ) as well as much of its hird and annoyed that despite often reasoned argument that the apologists cant cant see shlt for clay, but then they dont want to..

I suppose for many of them Bomber folk it must be like finding out your favourite uncle just got done for something very bad and you just cant bring yourself to accept it because of your deep seated feelings for him. I suspect though deep down they must know

I dont read BF as a rule but the thread is quite illuminating . The Essendon propaganda machine is in danger of blowing up its working that hard.

Sorry chief, but it's toe the line. It's not a fishing line that one casts but a line to which one stands, in conformity, like soldiers on parade.

Pedantic? No, because I don't pick it up every time someone here gets it wrong, but that stuff about casting the line got to me since you clearly had the wrong idea.

George Orwell had an entire essay on this stuff. It's worth checking out "Politics and the English Language".

Otherwise I am in full agreement, and more power to you.

Edited July 10, 2014 by pitmaster

[Ted Lasso 19,280]

I think Middleton left it in the hands of ASADA under th belief that nothing would proceed untill his ruled on the matter. I assume ASADA will issue ad extension or suspend the process untill after the trial.

I reckon they should carry on and suspend the investigation at the point of handing out infringement notices, I reckon they would rather the public see the case they have, know they aren't just bluffing and that way even if the investigation becomes invalid, the damage it would do to the image of the club and it's standing in the league would be far more devastating than it already is.

I reckon ASADA will get their man eventually.

[beelzebub 23,313]

Sorry chief, but it's toe the line. It's not a fishing line that one casts but a line to which one stands, in conformity, like soldiers on parade.

Pedantic? No, because I don't pick it up every time someone here gets it wrong, but that stuff about casting the line got to me since you clearly had the wrong idea.

George Orwell had an entire essay on this stuff. It's worth checking out "Politics and the English Language".

Otherwise I am in full agreement, and more power to you.

\not a fan of the mixed metaphor ?

can't win them all