If its any consolation the rumour came to me from an Essondon supporter who hangs around nightclubs.

Wow...sounds like it carries some weight then.

I assume when you play, you never miss a target, is that correct?

That is a pretty stupid post.

Last time I checked, I was not playing in the AFL.

I didn't say you were, but the question still stands

I didn't say you were, but the question still stands

Your question is an inane one.

Your question is an inane one.

It is quite a simple question, when I played I will happily admit that under pressure my kicks got a bit scrappy..even put a few out on the full...assume the pressure at AFL level is 100 times more.........either your kicking efficiency if and when you played was 100% or it wasn't......just so I know where the mark is you are taking Jack Grimes' kicking from.........

Jnrmac you are entitled to your opinion....but thought your post was pretty much the same

It is quite a simple question, when I played I will happily admit that under pressure my kicks got a bit scrappy..even put a few out on the full...assume the pressure at AFL level is 100 times more.........either your kicking efficiency if and when you played was 100% or it wasn't......just so I know where the mark is you are taking Jack Grimes' kicking from.........

Jnrmac you are entitled to your opinion....but thought your post was pretty much the same

Dude..seriously?

I'm kind of amazeed you are sticking to your guns on such a ridiculous point. My kicking skills are completely irrelevant to a comment about the standard of kicking in our side. I'd challenge anyone to say that it has been at an AFL standard for the past couple of seasons. In relation to the vast majority of other teams, it is and has been sub-par. Surely this is just commonly accepted as fact. Yes the pressure on the kicker at AFL level is 100 times more than at amateur level. That is why they are paid professionals and I, you, and the general public are not.

The fact is though that the Captain Frank Grimes butchers far too many of his kicks.

That is the bottom line. Yes he is a great kid with leadership qualities having heard him interviewed many times.

But on the ground his disposal efficiency is very average thus far. Those who put him in an elite category are hoping it happens.

Dude..seriously?

I'm kind of amazeed you are sticking to your guns on such a ridiculous point. My kicking skills are completely irrelevant to a comment about the standard of kicking in our side. I'd challenge anyone to say that it has been at an AFL standard for the past couple of seasons. In relation to the vast majority of other teams, it is and has been sub-par. Surely this is just commonly accepted as fact. Yes the pressure on the kicker at AFL level is 100 times more than at amateur level. That is why they are paid professionals and I, you, and the general public are not.

and further to the point, why you hear recruiting strategies that may revolve around recruiting atheletes, key positions, outside runners or in the case of Hawthorn over the last decade players that can "kick the footy".

A prime example is Scully - there was a knock on his kicking prior to being drafted and as yet i have not seen it improve - time will tell. You compare most of Watts' delivery by foot and know that if 90% of the team had his foot skills we would be in a better place. (well..it is one of the areas we really need to improve on).

The fact is though that the Captain Frank Grimes butchers far too many of his kicks.

That is the bottom line. Yes he is a great kid with leadership qualities having heard him interviewed many times.

But on the ground his disposal efficiency is very average thus far. Those who put him in an elite category are hoping it happens.

I am not sure watchers of the game would put his foot skills in the elite category.

I am not sure watchers of the game would put his foot skills in the elite category.

That is the point I was trying to make Nutbean, forgot you need to spell it out.......Grimes is still, because of injury, early in his career, as he gets more used to the pressure the kicking will improve....I certainly don't regard him as an elite kick at the moment, but then again he doesn't butcher every kick that others claim

I assume when you play, you never miss a target, is that correct?

I'm sorry, but this argument is ridiculous. The idea that the only people who can offer criticism are those with superior skills in the area of critique is utterly flawed. If it were true, Pavarotti could never have a singing teacher, Einstein couldn't have a maths lecturer and Gary Ablett could never have a coach.

The argument is especially flawed when directed at someone who's just made a rather salient point. The fact is, our captain kicked the ball put on the full in every second game last year!

That is the point I was trying to make Nutbean, forgot you need to spell it out.......Grimes is still, because of injury, early in his career, as he gets more used to the pressure the kicking will improve....I certainly don't regard him as an elite kick at the moment, but then again he doesn't butcher every kick that others claim

No he doesnt butcher every kicks he gets. However he is one in the team that can turn the ball over/miss targets completely when seemingly not under pressure. You can forgive quick kicks out of a clearance situation where there is immense heat and even live with kicking it to a 50/50 contest but Grimes has shown that he can turn over the ball in an unpressured situation.

I was critical of Bartram and the argument would come back that his efficiency would be at 70 or 80% but it would be the one or two turnovers, metres in the clear that were momentum killers and all the supporters shoulders would drop...ugghh...you would think that it could have similar effect on teammates. Grimes is also guilty of this on occasions.

I think there are three types of kicks in the team - and all of them can turn the ball over - it is the nature of the game - Creative kicks - Watts falls into this category - his kicking is good and his vision and decision making enhances that skill. Reliable kicks - Jetta - he is reliable enough by foot. Then there are the unreliables and Grimes fits into that category, as does Joel Mc, as did Bartram. ( so does Howe in front of goal). Dont be fooled by kicking efficiency stat - watch and see the crucial ball that shouldnt miss a target sail out of of bounds or to the opposition.

That is not to say that his kicking cant improve

Without becoming involved in the back and forward it has to be said our sub standard kicking skills across the entire team (with some exceptions) are a real concern for us. Footy is such a a game of momentum and our poor disposal skills kills us so often. Unfortunately there are hundreds of examples but one that comes to mind is Morton's shank against the Maggies last year.

Hard issue to address too i would have thought given that players come to the AFL with 15 years of developing their particular technique. Sets shots might be easier to improve (though still very hard - look at Franklin's struggles to improve his accuracy) but field kicking under pressure must be super hard to change in terms of technique. Not impossible though. Jones has improved both his kicking (distance, accuracy) and his choices (ie where to kick it) out of sight in the last 2 years or so.

Edited March 18, 201312 yr by binman

I'm sorry, but this argument is ridiculous. The idea that the only people who can offer criticism are those with superior skills in the area of critique is utterly flawed. If it were true, Pavarotti could never have a singing teacher, Einstein couldn't have a maths lecturer and Gary Ablett could never have a coach.

The argument is especially flawed when directed at someone who's just made a rather salient point. The fact is, our captain kicked the ball put on the full in every second game last year!

I just like having a bit of fun with the 'keyboard heroes',

You mean his point was sticking out?

Terrible sin kicking out on the full, I bet there is only a handful of AFL players who have ever done that

I just like having a bit of fun with the 'keyboard heroes',

You mean his point was sticking out?

Terrible sin kicking out on the full, I bet there is only a handful of AFL players who have ever done that

I can understand ( but dont agree) with you not wanting to be critical of our players.

I have no problem with players being criticised if it is measured ( as opposed to what was written about Fitzpaptrick on this site) and constructive.

So I will ask you directly - do you think that Grimes is a reliable kick ?

Nutbean, totally agree with your writing, put my opinion above, Grimes I think watching the games, and not to let BH think I am analysing, gets too far ahead of himself sometimes and rushes the kicks, as he gains more and more experience I think this will change, most other posters tend to forget he had a miserable time with injury for the first couple of years, when he was drafted he was a midfielder, but found himself in defence once fit, a defence that was under constant bombardment, he has made mistakes but as you said he is certainly not on his own......I am looking for him to improve his kicking this year

Satyr, are you always this precious?

I merely used Grimes as an example. He is in good company.

This is such a stupid argument. How does me wanting to see our skills improve this year earn me the title of keyboard hero?

Nutbean, totally agree with your writing, put my opinion above, Grimes I think watching the games, and not to let BH think I am analysing, gets too far ahead of himself sometimes and rushes the kicks, as he gains more and more experience I think this will change, most other posters tend to forget he had a miserable time with injury for the first couple of years, when he was drafted he was a midfielder, but found himself in defence once fit, a defence that was under constant bombardment, he has made mistakes but as you said he is certainly not on his own......I am looking for him to improve his kicking this year

I am also hoping Trengoves kicking will improve as well and I certainly put that down injury of some sort - he went from a very sweet kick to ugghh last year as well as his speed deserting him and I can only attribute it to injuries as you dont lose speed and the ability to kick in one season at age 20.

Satyr, are you always this precious?

I merely used Grimes as an example. He is in good company.

This is such a stupid argument. How does me wanting to see our skills improve this year earn me the title of keyboard hero?

P_Man, it's not me getting upset, it seems to be you....don't answer it if it is stupid....who gave you the title I didn't

You all crack me up! How is the kicking efficiency of Jack Grimes relevant to this whole topic. RPFC you started talking about players and who you would cut and Cowboy was asking all the Nay Sayers about Neeldy not being a good coach to offer an opinion about why? And who they would replace him with? But instead we have a bunch of posts banging on about our captain.

I personally like what Neeldy has done thus far, and its a work in progress that will evolve into something grand. I would not go so far as to make ultimatums like I would pull membership if they sack him mid year but I would be writing to the club to express my utter disappointment if yuis did occur and move on. I know this topic is not aimed at me as i drum for the other side and i was not going to post anything but seriously you guys all need to calm down.

P_Man, it's not me getting upset, it seems to be you....don't answer it if it is stupid....who gave you the title I didn't

Don't get cute and play the innocent card mate, this was in direct reference to me:

I just like having a bit of fun with the 'keyboard heroes',

Nevermind the fact that you changed the argument from being about the team's kicking overall to Grimes being a subject of attack. He was an example, pure and simple.

You talk about keyboard heroes but jump on me for a perfectly legitimate observation and hope for the season. Wisen up.

If its any consolation the rumour came to me from an Essondon supporter who hangs around nightclubs.

And spends the rest of the time lounging around clinics in the vicinity of Windy Hill to catch a glimpse of his footy heroes no doubt.

Tick tock, tick tock...

The jungle drums are well and truly beating.

9 more rounds Neeld