We need to get our facts right.

Carlton did fade out inexplicably in the second half of 2007 but it did not do so in the Kreuzer Cup with Fev on the bench. Fev was benched against Collingwood some weeks earlier than that game but he was sent off for surgery and conveniently was missing for the Blues over the last few weeks of the season.

People can blame Melbourne officials like CS for supposedly being grim-faced after a win or CC for saying things which might three years after the event be taken out of context, but I don't regard that as being grounds for criticising their performance or justifying the utter visciousness of Wilson's attacks on them and the club.

Moreover, there is no justification for excluding Carlton and a number of other clubs from the same lengthy and rigorous scrutiny as that under which our club has been placed. I'm sure that given four or so months of KGB-like attention from over zealous investigators and media people with agendas, that stories can be embellished and anyone can be made to look incompetent if facts are twisted to suit a particular angle. In the case of Carlton, I know of at least one board member from that time who was careless enough to lay it on the line weeks before the Kreuzer Cup that his club's game was to tank in order to maximize its draft position. I know this because the (now former) board member told me so.

But apart from 15 minutes of questioning of Tony Liberatore that resulted in a dismissive outcome, the Blues remain untouched even after Fevola's revelations in his book. The fact of the matter is that the AFL in giving such a narrow interpretation to what it called "tanking" turned a blind eye to a practice that went on for the better part of a decade and which should have been nipped in the bud long before 2007 when Carlton turned it into an art form.

THankyou for checking my facts, WJ .......................... and for an excellent summation of the key weaknesses in Ms Wilson's analysis and in the AFL's approach.

Fan,

I think the words that particularly grated many, and that were perhaps unnecessary, came in your first post in this thread where you concluded by saying, "Keep up the good work Caro". I accept it was an all encompassing "thank you" on your part, but it was also clearly designed to inflame. It served its purpose.

Btw, I noticed in the first Wilson article that got this tanking story back to the forefront they used an archive photo which showed yours truly seated in a large meeting room. As you worked voluntarily in the club's footy department in 2009 I suspect there's a fair chance you were one of the 15 in the room when Connolly made his 30 second "aside" of that year.

Your take on his comments and intent ?

he never put in the $3m he promised.

Pull your head in pal. He saved the club, sank $2.7m of his own, or c$5m before tax. And plenty more effort besides. I was there, I saw.

You must have contributed more, I guess?

Fan,

I think the words that particularly grated many, and that were perhaps unnecessary, came in your first post in this thread where you concluded by saying, "Keep up the good work Caro". I accept it was an all encompassing "thank you" on your part, but it was also clearly designed to inflame. It served its purpose.

Btw, I noticed in the first Wilson article that got this tanking story back to the forefront they used an archive photo which showed yours truly seated in a large meeting room. As you worked voluntarily in the club's footy department in 2009 I suspect there's a fair chance you were one of the 15 in the room when Connolly made his 30 second "aside" of that year.

Your take on his comments and intent ?

Careful...... one of the 15 appears to have been one of Caro's unmamed sources..................

Pull your head in pal. He saved the club, sank $2.7m of his own, or c$5m before tax. And plenty more effort besides. I was there, I saw.

You must have contributed more, I guess?

Sorry mate. Apart from your superficial assessment of the man, Gutnick has absolutely nothing to do with the topic at hand. I'd suggest that your head is the one that ought to be pulled in

CW has turned a family feud into a never ceasing attack on the MFC. The apple doesn't fall far from the tree.

Fan, for someone without the time to read through the thread you seem to have plenty of it to defend and applaud CW...

Unlike you Nutbean I don't think Wilson has the influence you do.

Personally I think she is a must read and an important cog in the business of the AFL because she keeps everyone pretty honest.

Without the likes of her clubs would be much freer to break rules and the larger clubs would hold the whip hand. She keeps them honest.

Without her we would be more ignorant of issues than we are now and there would be much greater reward and willingness for "bending the rules".

She has been in part responsible for removing the PP which is a good thing.

Fan, I was going to say you are sending me mixed messages, but on reflection I really think you are sending me polar opposite messages.

Edit - I agree wholeheartedly with the second post of yours I have highlighted and that is exactly the influence I am talking about and why it is important for her to be held to task on her reporting and stop presenting opinion, innuendo, supposition and in some cases downright falsehoods as facts.

Edited November 15, 201212 yr by nutbean

I couldn't be bothered to type her name. If that is mysogynism then I am guilty.

But then again she deserves to be monogynisted so I only plead guilty under duress.

she deserves to be monogynisted so I only plead guilty under a dress ?

Melbourne will be harshly punished. Cameron Schwab and Chris Connolly will be finished at the club. But football lives, young men who played no real active part in the treacherous football facade which took place at the club in 2009 were ruined or at the very least tarnished by their association with it.

What Melbourne did in manipulating results was disgusting. The result of the fix was pathetic.

Read more: http://www.theage.co...l#ixzz2CKVc6vTv

The club is expected to put forward Connolly's claim that his comments – including his invoking of a disappointed and cancer stricken president Jim Stynes after a Port Adelaide victory – were tongue-in-cheek.

It is also playing down the significance of the meeting in the vault. It will also cast doubt on the true nature of chief executive Cameron Schwab's disappointment with Bailey in the rooms after the Port win.

Read more: http://www.theage.co...l#ixzz2CKWTS36S

Balanced reporting or evidence of [censored]?

The likely reality is that Caroline Wilson, once the ace of AFL investigative reporting has simply lost it. Spooked by the massive retrenchments at The Age, Mike Sheahan calling is semi-quits and young gun Emma Quayle trumping her comprehensively by breaking the Tippett story, Caroline simply went too hard and too far, too fast on insufficient information in a desperate bid to stay relevant. And now is back-paddling faster than a kayaker 10 metres from the edge of Victoria Falls.

Edited November 15, 201212 yr by Whispering_Jack
you can't say that even with a question mark after it (not without proof at least)

Careful...... one of the 15 appears to have been one of Caro's unmamed sources..................

Unmamed? Unmaimed?

Perhaps a matter of time.

There are big differences in the views expressed in this thread. I think all those ranting (and it is ranting) for dissenters to not speak are not thinking things through. THe problems with dissenting is that is creates uncertainty. Strong organisations deal well with this. The MFC doesn't feel that may because it isn't. Those decrying dissent do so because they feel that weakness and want to hide it. Arguements that dissent weakens the MFC are pure tosh: the mfc is weak and dissent highlights it.

And let's face it, weaknesses need to be highlighted. Would ANYONE who has bitched about Fan's dissent turn the same standards to the current government? Would they for one minute go along with the idea that the Liberal party need to stop whingeing and just back up the ALP because we need solidarity at thie time of financial instability and global uncertainty? Really? So why have that standard about the MFC?

Time to cast aside the illusion of muffling dissent for the greater good: the arguments should be heard and debated and we should hope that reason and the truth will out.

IMO Fan is confusing a few issues. Caro can produce good work. She should continue producing work that actually is good. I don't think her work about the MFC is good and I think her agenda and drive to damn has replaced what I expect in terms of standards of journalism. That said, the reason she can make us look bad is in part that we've left ourselves open to it. THAT POINT is not lessened because Caro is doing a bad impersonation of journalist, judge & jury.

Again and again, issues about the management of the MFC come up. Something is stinky and at some point things need to be cleaned up. How that should happen I don't know; nor do I know who should do it. That said, I find it impossible to believe that saying "everything will be right if we don't criticise" inflates a sense of our real power and fails to recognise the responsibility of members to/for the welfare of the club.

Ill put this in simple terms. Anyone who cant see the hypocrisy and targeted vindictiveness let alone the selectiveness and revisionist nature of Wilsons writings wrt this club must either have cloudy comprehension ability or they themselves have agendas.

How anyone can describe much of her recent sensationalist garbage as more the scribblings of good journalism is simply beyond me.

Would ANYONE who has bitched about Fan's dissent turn the same standards to the current government? Would they for one minute go along with the idea that the lLberal party need to stop whingeing and just back up the ALP because we need solidarity at thie time of financial instability and global uncertainty? Really?

Well, now that you've mentioned it ...

More than happy for people to have their opinions, it's when people have their own facts when I get dismissive.

And one of those 'facts' is what Fan thinks about Wilson's work.

It has been shoddy, constantly rewritten and clarified, and looking like the charges she laid at our feet will be debunked.

That isn't worth a 'keep up the good work'...

It's reminiscent of this:

More than happy for people to have their opinions, it's when people have their own facts when I get dismissive.

have their own opinions masquarading as fact - got it in one rpfc

Again and again, issues about the management of the MFC come up. Something is stinky and at some point things need to be cleaned up. How that should happen I don't kniow; nor do I know who shold do it. That said, I find it impossible to believe that saying "everything will be right if we don't criticise" inflates a sense of our real power and fails to recognise the responsibility of members to/for the welfare of the club.

There is no issue with having a well run orginisation with the best people in charge but it is not the issue at hand. The issue at hand is the investigation and the flimsy evidence being put forward to publicly humiliate the club, its officials and its supporters, which is being led in particular Caroline Wilson.

There will be clarity in a debate over the admin and people working at the club when the investigation is over.

Careful...... one of the 15 appears to have been one of Caro's unmamed sources..................

Do you think the thought escaped me ? Fan worked closely with Harrington and I think there's an excellent chance he was in the meeting and if so he would most likely have been interviewed for his 'take' on proceedings.

I'm sure he'll set us straight...

That , if you dont mind me suggesting is a mighty big throw-away pass there..."but so what ?"

The problem for me, and many here , is that this is the fuel that drives her in just about every swipe she makes at this club. Even when writing about seemingly a world away topic she will haul it back to some snide dig at the MFC and invariably a toxic jab at Schwab. She cant help herself.

You put it out here that were all but dysfunctional at management level, so how did we manage the journey of late ? How were we able to negotiate the reefs that lurked at every turn. Somehow, by dumb luck I take it we've found an island inhabitable !! Its also lush with new facilities and personnel. Boy you can get lucky sometimes eh !I say we are not nearly as poorly run as some might suggest. Certainly not now. Maybe 5-6 years back wonky might have been apt.

The problem with Wilson for mine is , and i've only of late figured this out , is that shes not so much the wonder journo she or her employers would have us believe but more a sniping guerllia hack who at times utilizes elements of the truth as a camouflage for her own vitriol.. I emphasize elements as its seldom the whole and often rearranged to suit her cause de jour .

But back to the "so what" if I might. This is fundamental to her course, let alone cause. they arent more than often mutually independent.

Its actually the "SO" that permeates her "What". Its this pungent obsession that taints the very air she breathes.

She very obviously has a beef with CS and the MFC. She very obviously doesn't appreciate good reporting skills or writing, but so what?

That's her prerogative and she is allowed that.

Edited: Ps, I'm not condoning her journalism, but she is entitled to an opinion and prerogrative... as much as it pains me to see the end result of the two

The "sow what" is the damage that she causes to the club; others read this, apart from Demonlanders and they range from Sponsors, potential Sponsors, potential recruits and potential supporters so it affects all we do.

Cheers RobbieF and sorry bb - I completely missinterpreted everything

I am loathe to get involved in all of this for obvious reasons to some but I hope (again) that the club will head down the road to success due to a complete change of direction due to a different footy dept. I don give a F*&* if the decision to appoint the coach was rushed or flawed from a political sense.

This club which as our coach said *"seemed to stand for everything else but footy" has been down this road before.

We do not need snivelling little politicians on here who never comment on footy matters doing their little bit on here to attempt to destabilise the club (again) in attempts to further their little empires.

What is heartening is that Demonlanders seem to be well and truly switched on to it.

*EDIT: Malthouse said it not Need, Neeld apparently alluded to the statement.

Edited November 15, 201212 yr by dandeeman

diesel, I hope that clarity is there: it was not before wilson and dissenters (and I was one) were decried for "demeaning" Jim and the Board.

Cheers RobbieF and sorry bb - I completely missinterpreted everything

no probs ..

I am loathe to get involved in all of this for obvious reasons to some but I hope (again) that the club will head down the road to success due to a complete change of direction due to a different footy dept. I don give a F*&* if the decision to appoint the coach was rushed or flawed from a political sense.

This club which as our coach said "seemed to stand for everyone else but footy" has been down this road before.

We do not need snivelling little politicians on here who never comment on footy matters doing their little bit on here to attempt to destabilise the club (again) in attempts to further their little empires.

What is heartening is that Demonlanders seem to be well and truly switched on to it.

If you think that questioning the behaviour and direct of the club is destabilising, then the club must be extraordinarily weak. Is that what you believe? If it is so weak, how did it get to that position?

If you think that questioning the behaviour and direct of the club is destabilising, then the club must be extraordinarily weak. Is that what you believe? If it is so weak, how did it get to that position?

Not what I said

Edited November 15, 201212 yr by dandeeman

Btw, I noticed in the first Wilson article that got this tanking story back to the forefront they used an archive photo which showed yours truly seated in a large meeting room. As you worked voluntarily in the club's footy department in 2009 I suspect there's a fair chance you were one of the 15 in the room when Connolly made his 30 second "aside" of that year.

Your take on his comments and intent ?

"Yours truly" refers to oneself .. I suspect you mean Fan was in the room, not you ..

If you think that questioning the behaviour and direct of the club is destabilising, then the club must be extraordinarily weak. Is that what you believe? If it is so weak, how did it get to that position?

Happy for dissenters.

What we are tired of is the popping up of a certain few on particular subjects.

They rarely post about anything else and are far from open about their motives and personal involvement.

These posters deserve nothing but wariness, apprehension, suspicion, and the dismissiveness that comes with that in rational human beings (vitriol being the irrational response).