I think they both share a problem with spoiling and one is not better or worse than the other, you either spoil effectively or you don't and your opponent gets the ball.

down one of the other defensive posts. That's my assessment.

I'll disagree. I've never seen a tall defender with less aggression in my time watching football than Watts. Dunn is poor when his body is on the line, but Watts is pathetic.

Edited March 2, 201312 yr by Ben-Hur

So essentially, damned if he does and damned if he doesn't. If he reacts and gets stuck in, he's faux-tough. If he chooses not to react, he's scared..

Okay, NOW it's the last word. :D

No mate. You're saying that, not me. I believe Dunn is not tough in the least, regardless of how he reacts. At best, he's a pest to the opposition. And that in itself can be handy at times. But tough, no.

I'll disagree. I've never seen a tall defender with less aggression in my time watching football than Watts. Dunn is poor when his body is on the line, but Watts is pathetic.

I think they are both poor in the defensive art of spoiling, whether one has more aggression or not the end result is the same, the opposition have the ball.

I think they are both poor in the defensive art of spoiling, whether one has more aggression or not the end result is the same, the opposition have the ball.

No, you're wrong. Aggression means that you can at least impact the contest. You can at least bowl a body over. Watts doesn't do that whatsoever. At least Dunn will do that when he doesn't fear his own health. He impacts more when spoiling, or hitting another body. Watts virtually doesn't do either.

Ben hur....I'm not the argumentative type but you are sorely mistaken my.friend. Give jw a chance fella. You might not like it as u seem set in your ways bue he might prove you wrong this year. Will you admit it though?

No, you're wrong. Aggression means that you can at least impact the contest. You can at least bowl a body over. Watts doesn't do that whatsoever. At least Dunn will do that when he doesn't fear his own health. He impacts more when spoiling, or hitting another body. Watts virtually doesn't do either.

Aggression also may mean you give away easy free kicks, but we will disagree on this point because I'm wrong. Controlled aggression and a competitive streak is what I like to see in a player.

'Ben', the aggression thing with Watts is blindsiding you. Let's just see what pans out with him this year, I think a telling comment was made by Neeld recently when he remarked that "he didn't need Jack to get any more relaxed". The kid is casual in his approach and yes he does lack the aggression of others but as Gibbs is showing this year that can turn around to a degree. He's never going to be Joel Selwood but he certainly has the goods to be a Goddard or Gibbs type.

I was happy to see him take the game on a bit more last week and kick a couple of goals, I thought last year he showed a bit down back but didn't really make the opposition pay. If he's prepared to take the game on and not only set up but kick goals from half back, to use his pace, height and skills to advantage then we will have a player, maybe not what you wanted, maybe not the key forward we all wanted but a class player non the less.

Compared to this time last year he is miles ahead, couldn't get a touch in the intra at Casey last year, couldn't get a touch in the NAB. To date he has probably been our best player in both. Still at 21yo, a long way to go for Jack...

Ben hur....I'm not the argumentative type but you are sorely mistaken my.friend. Give jw a chance fella. You might not like it as u seem set in your ways bue he might prove you wrong this year. Will you admit it though?

I only comment on what I see. It's impossible for me to be proven wrong when I'm only commentating on his current output. IF he regularly starts to put his body on the line I'll acknowledge it. But it won't make me wrong for what he's previously done.

Fat chance though. The boy has no ticker.

I only comment on what I see. It's impossible for me to be proven wrong when I'm only commentating on his current output. IF he regularly starts to put his body on the line I'll acknowledge it. But it won't make me wrong for what he's previously done.

Fat chance though. The boy has no ticker.

You are comical Ben.

Your head is so far up your own rectum that you actually think your $hit taste good.

Your opinion of the strength of your own opinions is laughable.

The fact that you always have to have the last word and constantly express how right you are and how wrong others are unfortunately screams out a very insecure person.

Here's a thought, instead of being argumentative all the time, accept a difference of opinion and move on...

Bet I'm wrong though.....

You are comical Ben.

Your head is so far up your own rectum that you actually think your $hit taste good.

Your opinion of the strength of your own opinions is laughable.

The fact that you always have to have the last word and constantly express how right you are and how wrong others are unfortunately screams out a very insecure person.

Here's a thought, instead of being argumentative all the time, accept a difference of opinion and move on...

Bet I'm wrong though.....

Great hyperbole, but with what specifically do you disagree ?

I really didnt want to comment

I saw a bit of Grinter and I thought he was as tough as his reputation . It was a different time and the game was played differently Brereton and Mathews were tough but thugs at time, I thought Grinter just played hard at the ball and was always prepared to be involved with niggling either offensively or defensively

It would be interesting to get the thoughts of players at the time.

Dunn I have seen and I thought was only tough by comparison to other Melb players. But he never avoided putting his body on the line

Watts. What can I say? Hes a different style of player. I wouldnt call him soft (and I reckon its a bit simplistic and derogatory to use the word ticker) but he does try and avoid the heavy contacts,

I dont see that as a fault if it allows him to win the footy and deliver it well, It may even be that the key to his kicking is a consequence of his avoiding the hard contact.

He is part of the team and I reckon we need his style. We and I reckon no team needs a team of Dermot Breretons or even Jonathan Brown Obviously Watts isnt that yet and may never be We may have found one in Hogan and that will be fine if he has Watts feeding him.

I really didnt want to comment

...

Dunn I have seen and I thought was only tough by comparison to other Melb players. But he never avoided putting his body on the line

Watts ... he does try and avoid the heavy contacts,

I dont see that as a fault if it allows him to win the footy and deliver it well...

We watch footy very differently.

I only comment on what I see. It's impossible for me to be proven wrong when I'm only commentating on his current output. IF he regularly starts to put his body on the line I'll acknowledge it. But it won't make me wrong for what he's previously done.

Fat chance though. The boy has no ticker.

BH, I always look out for your view on matters relating to the playing list. In short, I respect your opinions and observations.

That said, I think you're overly harsh on Watts. To me, he's not evolved into the player we had expected him to be when we recruited him (ie, Nick Riewoldt), but I think he has found a role which, albeit different to expectations, he fulfils very well.

He's turning into this team's quarterback. He has great vision, beautiful skills and has class that is the envy of most other AFL players. He's not a crash and bash type, which may be a tad disappointing given his athleticism, but he more than makes up for it because of his other qualities.

I think he is a very important player for us, and I'm predicting a very good year from him this year.

BH... I think you're overly harsh on Watts.

If I only ever said positive things about Watts most people would be very happy. People love to hear positive views. If you say what you believe and they happen to be negative most people hate it. They're still just "opinions", which by themselves mean nothing, especially from an internet nuffie, but many people just want to read the good stuff.

Fwiw, I don't believe I'm harsh on Watts. Let's make a list.

1. Is he a failed forward - yes

2. Is he timid in the air in a contested situation - yes

3. Does he hit the body hard enough, or spoil hard enough in the back-line - no. In fact sometimes he makes no contact when he needed to

4. Is he aggressive - no

5. Is he fast - yes

6. Is he a beautiful kick - yes

7. Is he a good decision maker - yes

8. Is he agile - yes

9. Is he good on his non preferred side - yes

10. Is he sublimely skilled for a tall - yes

11. Is he a good shot at goal - yes

12 Are there queries about his ability to really stand up in a hot final given some of the queries re his footy DNA - yes

Put simply, many would agree with most, if not all of the above, but some may query the importance of some of the above. They may not put the same weight on things I do.

There are some players I'd love to run out with in a grand final. Some players that you know who'd die for the chance of victory. I wouldn't want to be running out alongside Jack Watts. I judge footballers on certain parameters and unfortunately he fails the ones I hold dearest. I understand what supporters see in him, I understand supporters love highly skilled players and I understand why some supporters loathe me and my views. I truly "get it". But I don't care. I have virtually no time for him as a footballer. And I can't see that changing.

If he was able to completely change my view by his actions on the footy field there would be no-one happier than me. I'll at least refrain from commenting on him until the season proper.

NOTE: the last sentence will be possibly quoted and certainly relished by most. You lot are easy to read.

They are both soft but at least Watts has talent.

By the way BH is right on Watts. He's a dud pick 1 unless he turns it around massively this year.

I still hold out some hope.

1. Is he a failed forward - yes

2. Is he timid in the air in a contested situation - yes

3. Does he hit the body hard enough, or spoil hard enough in the back-line - no. In fact sometimes he makes no contact when he needed to

4. Is he aggressive - no

5. Is he fast - yes

6. Is he a beautiful kick - yes

7. Is he a good decision maker - yes

8. Is he agile - yes

9. Is he good on his non preferred side - yes

10. Is he sublimely skilled for a tall - yes

11. Is he a good shot at goal - yes

12 Are there queries about his ability to really stand up in a hot final given some of the queries re his footy DNA - yes

The anti-Jordie!

We watch footy very differently

Sorry BH

I was a bit to certain with those comments.

I should have not said always with Dunn but was trying to convey that I saw him as more competitive than many others and he did contest.

Watts I should have said not a fault that diminishes all his other attributes. Trying to convey that there is more than a single feature to the game.

I too do enjoy your contributions and value your comments and am happy that we watch footy very differently I think there is room for us all

Just dont get me started on the umpiring.

If I only ever said positive things about Watts most people would be very happy. People love to hear positive views. If you say what you believe and they happen to be negative most people hate it. They're still just "opinions", which by themselves mean nothing, especially from an internet nuffie, but many people just want to read the good stuff.

Fwiw, I don't believe I'm harsh on Watts. Let's make a list.

1. Is he a failed forward - yes

2. Is he timid in the air in a contested situation - yes

3. Does he hit the body hard enough, or spoil hard enough in the back-line - no. In fact sometimes he makes no contact when he needed to

4. Is he aggressive - no

5. Is he fast - yes

6. Is he a beautiful kick - yes

7. Is he a good decision maker - yes

8. Is he agile - yes

9. Is he good on his non preferred side - yes

10. Is he sublimely skilled for a tall - yes

11. Is he a good shot at goal - yes

12 Are there queries about his ability to really stand up in a hot final given some of the queries re his footy DNA - yes

Put simply, many would agree with most, if not all of the above, but some may query the importance of some of the above. They may not put the same weight on things I do.

There are some players I'd love to run out with in a grand final. Some players that you know who'd die for the chance of victory. I wouldn't want to be running out alongside Jack Watts. I judge footballers on certain parameters and unfortunately he fails the ones I hold dearest. I understand what supporters see in him, I understand supporters love highly skilled players and I understand why some supporters loathe me and my views. I truly "get it". But I don't care. I have virtually no time for him as a footballer. And I can't see that changing.

If he was able to completely change my view by his actions on the footy field there would be no-one happier than me. I'll at least refrain from commenting on him until the season proper.

NOTE: the last sentence will be possibly quoted and certainly relished by most. You lot are easy to read.

Just read this after last post and as said appreciate your points/opinion

is he a failed forward? yes at the moment as he is being played in defence but I recall Nietz was CHB before returning forward

Is he timid? again harsh to use about any player who achieves AFL level I am sure he is not as timid as me.

Hard and aggressive ? again not always as hard and aggressive as Jonathan Brown and many others but I have seen him contest and tackle and even take pack marks so there is some there.

I understand your point about who you run out in a grand final with and to be honest Jack has not been placed anywhere near that cauldron.

I wouldnt mind running out with Jack, knowing that he will get the ball and deliver it precisely, Knowing he can kick that goal, Knowing that he will make the right decision. Who knows the decision might be to die for that chance of victory when it actually occurs. But then death is a bit final and if an injury prevents a continued career I can be happy with timid.

Jack Watts will be All-Australian this year. Mark it down.