On 07/07/2012 at 10:49, Forest Demon said:

I understand what you are saying Hardnut, that being that Neeld should have come in and worked with the existing list and style, and tweaked it and put his own stamp on it, rather than radically changing the way we play, and looking to turn the list over massively at the end of the year. And while I can see where you are coming from, I think the decision was made that the attacking, unaccountable style of play under Bailey wasn't going to get us anywhere and we needed someone to come in and instill the basics of defensive footy and dramatically change the way things were done at the club. Time will tell I guess, but I firmly believe that Neeld needs to be given the length of his contract to do what he was employed to do, otherwise we are back where we started again, and probably even further back.

Appreciate what you are saying Forest Demon, but you are still comparing Neeld and Bailey. I am looking at other clubs and coaches, as well as assessing where we are at right now.

  On 07/07/2012 at 10:39, Hardnut said:

Let me just make one point categorically clear. All of my comments make no comparison between Neeld and Bailey. I am always referring to coaching in principle, and with an existing list, regardless of when the players were recruited. The one thing I do know is that when we clearly make a mistake in choice of coach, we have to rectify it asap. As for skills training, it is not Auskick stuff, it is putting the ball on a 10c piece stuff (or exactly where a team mate would want it - dare I say 'centimetre perfect'!). Have a look at how some teams achieve this regularly, whereas other supposedly good teams still make fundamental skill errors on a regular basis.

confidence = major increases in skill and speed. instantly.

  On 07/07/2012 at 10:41, Clint Bizkit said:

I just don't understand how one team can be bad for so many years and still not know how to do the basic things such as spread, chase, tackle, turn around after taking a mark and hit a target 20 metres away.

The reaction times too of players is appalling, very few Melbourne players are able to think beyond getting possession of the ball. Bate is one of the worst, he get's the ball then has to stop to asses the situation, standard AFL footballers are thinking two or even three possessions ahead. It is also why Martin gets smothered so often becuase he is so slow to think, incredible for such an intelligent person.

confidence = major increases in skill and speed. it does.

  On 07/07/2012 at 11:01, Forest Demon said:

For the record, I would barely say I am a person with too much faith. I have no idea whether Neeld will make it or not, but all I am doing is refusing to blame him for past errors and am willing to give him time to do his job.

And that earlier comment was not meant to infer that you were comparing Neeld to Bailey.

Your comment of "Let his 3 year contract run at least" indicates to me you have a lot of faith . But that's just me (I'm part of the "Ye , who have little faith brigade!" )

For what it's worth , I desperately want Neeld to succeed , but I reserve the right to critique him . I haven't resorted to insulting Mark or demeaning him and I believe it's poor form to do so .

  On 07/07/2012 at 11:15, Macca said:

Your comment of "Let his 3 year contract run at least" indicates to me you have a lot of faith . But that's just me (I'm part of the "Ye , who have little faith brigade!" )

You believe that you can only be one or the other. Either you're a 'Neeld man' or an 'anti-Neeld man'.

Why does this have to be so? Is it because it is simpler for you to understand?

  On 07/07/2012 at 11:19, Axis of Bob said:

You believe that you can only be one or the other. Either you're a 'Neeld man' or an 'anti-Neeld man'.

Why does this have to be so? Is it because it is simpler for you to understand?

Nice of you to turn this debate into one where the personal abuse starts . Is there any need to resort to insulting my intelligence levels ?

Go and bother somebody else .

Genuine question - it's the reason why humans generalise and categorise people. It has helped humans for millions of years. It's not necessarily derogatory. Is there a reason why you are doing it here?

Why is it necessary that all people must fall into either of those two categories? Why is there not room for someone to be an unaffiliated observer?

Surely it was obvious to everyone on the day that our captains were named, that this was never going to be a short term turnaround. Our captains wouldn't be expected to be good solid leaders for another 2 years. Why would anyone think our team would be showing much improvement before our captains are expected to be hitting their groove?

  On 07/07/2012 at 11:27, Axis of Bob said:

Genuine question. Is there a reason why?

Why is it necessary that all people must fall into either of those two categories? Why is there not room for someone to be an unaffiliated observer?

I reckon its a fair enough question , in the manner its proposed.

So much purported on these boards supposes that a poster is either in this corner or that corner , either black or white.....or rather red or blue. It negates the idea that you , I or anyone can wander the halls that connect one part of an opinion with another. That a posters thinking can either straddle or be composite , mutlifaceted etc..

So in the context of Neeld/no-Neeld then surely there are those that are neither but are prepared to give someone, anyone , various benefits of doubts or the chance to actulally effect change. This wont happen overnight but many need it to otherwise a bloke's a failure.

Now is it ok for watchers, observers to feel this is fair enough without actually being a die hard Neeldy..or conversely not ?

  On 07/07/2012 at 11:27, Axis of Bob said:

Genuine question - it's the reason why humans generalise and categorise people. It has helped humans for millions of years. It's not necessarily derogatory. Is there a reason why you are doing it here?

Why is it necessary that all people must fall into either of those two categories? Why is there not room for someone to be an unaffiliated observer?

Well , obviously there are more than 2 categories . And I'm assuming you're directing this post at me .

I only talked about 2 categories because I didn't feel the need to write a 2 page essay about all the different levels . Maybe you shouldn't have looked at my comments in such a 'Simplistic' manner .

  On 07/07/2012 at 09:20, Hardnut said:

There are some 800 players on AFL lists. Every club has 40 or so players on its list. Each list has its strengths and weaknesses, and surprisingly, there is not much between the lists in reality. It is up to the coach to get the best out of the list they have and then gradually improve that list. Time for posters to stop attacking the players, as the buck always stops with the leader, in this case the coach, that's what they are paid for!

Your credibility is gone with this post

  On 07/07/2012 at 11:38, Pennant St Dee said:

Your credibility is gone with this post

I'll take my credibility with me as I watch Adelaide (didn't they finish next to us on the ladder last year?) move to top spot or close after tonight's expected win (it is only 3/4 time and they have lost two players)!

Macca, you said that it was a debate between those that 'have too much faith and those that don't have enough'.

Who's to say that it isn't a debate between those 'that don't have enough faith' and everyone else?

Neeld has only been coaching for half a season. It's clearly not long enough to determine whether or not he can coach (based on the actions on field). Clarkson and Hardwick both struggled in their first seasons - one of them beat us today and the other won a premiership. Can they coach? Did we know after half a season?

  On 07/07/2012 at 10:46, RobbieF said:

We have indeed recruited poorly and at last we are prepared to admit it, previously if you said that you were shouted down and told you didn't have a clue.

Perhaps we should revisit some of the threads where a few of us copped heaps and see if any opinions have changed. Grandson of a gun, anything to say now?

Neeld will be alright, he seems to understand we have deficiencies and is going to try and rectify them unlike the previous coaches who, like some posters on here, couldn't see the problem.

BTW at the recent Before the Bounce Craig said there will be big changes at the end of the year and there will be quite a few players moved on as the club are convinced they are simply not up to AFL standard.

Good post,

  On 07/07/2012 at 11:02, Hardnut said:

Appreciate what you are saying Forest Demon, but you are still comparing Neeld and Bailey. I am looking at other clubs and coaches, as well as assessing where we are at right now.

You know what happens 'Hardnut' ? People like you and I who 'Dare' to question the Coach in any shape or form end up being shouted down .

The people who take us to task end up winning because we're way less prone to say anything in the future .

Meanwhile , it's perfectly fine for our players to cop untold amounts of abuse , insults and demeaning comments on (in some cases) a daily basis .

  On 07/07/2012 at 11:49, Axis of Bob said:

Macca, you said that it was a debate between those that 'have too much faith and those that don't have enough'.

Don't you know a 'General' comment when you see one ? I believe that those who don't hold such extreme views , tend to get lost and those with the extreme views tend to be the ones 'Left over' that argue to the end .

As an example , the ones who might take on 'tonatopia's views are more likely to be the ones with a lot of faith .

But that's just my opinion , it's not a statement of fact .

  On 07/07/2012 at 11:48, Hardnut said:

I'll take my credibility with me as I watch Adelaide (didn't they finish next to us on the ladder last year?) move to top spot or close after tonight's expected win (it is only 3/4 time and they have lost two players)!

The fact you compare Adelaide to us on last years ladder position is not helping you. They have some gun midfielders and only 2 years ago were coming off 5-7 years consecutive finals appearances. Many experts hadthem pencilled in at the start of 2011 to do well but they didn't.

As some have said we have recruited badly and yes we have but it is before Bailey came on board. It is for this reason we are taking so long to rebuild and not jumping back as quickly as Meth Coast and others have.

We were given a chance to win today, all we had to do was play bad, instead we were appalling!

The skill level at MFC is barely at VAFA level.

What concerns me is that, after so much blind faith being expressed in Bailey, you'd think we'd be "once bitten twice shy" about showing blind faith in a coach until the performances are there.

The reason for a lot of the blind faith in Bailey was the "he's not coaching now, he's coaching for the future" line. We should take great care with the same line about another coach, before the performance is there to justify it.

The fact is, we still don't know whether Neeld can coach or not. We hope he can, but we don't know for sure.

  On 07/07/2012 at 10:46, RobbieF said:

We have indeed recruited poorly and at last we are prepared to admit it, previously if you said that you were shouted down and told you didn't have a clue.

Perhaps we should revisit some of the threads where a few of us copped heaps and see if any opinions have changed. Grandson of a gun, anything to say now?

Neeld will be alright, he seems to understand we have deficiencies and is going to try and rectify them unlike the previous coaches who, like some posters on here, couldn't see the problem.

BTW at the recent Before the Bounce Craig said there will be big changes at the end of the year and there will be quite a few players moved on as the club are convinced they are simply not up to AFL standard.

When Neeld came to the board at first he suggested to them that their view of the list was not his , that he wasnt even sure those that he rated were even in the right positions but only some fiddling around and re-rating will show one thing or the other. By now Neeld will be somewhat dismayed that some arent even showing what he thought might have been there. The FD will be doing their homework . They know who can , who cant, who will, who won't. Theyre still offering some their last chance or last yard of rope. Its up to them, Neeld and co cant play the game for them. You can drag all the horses you like to water but if they dont want to , they dont want to. In all honesty it must be driving them around the bend as much or more than us.

Theres no wand, no magic potion. Theres only trail and error, homework and a fresh approach to the list.

More holes than a block of Swiss cheese. wont always be the case

  On 07/07/2012 at 12:01, Pennant St Dee said:

The fact you compare Adelaide to us on last years ladder position is not helping you. They have some gun midfielders and only 2 years ago were coming off 5-7 years consecutive finals appearances. Many experts hadthem pencilled in at the start of 2011 to do well but they didn't.

As some have said we have recruited badly and yes we have but it is before Bailey came on board. It is for this reason we are taking so long to rebuild and not jumping back as quickly as Meth Coast and others have.

Who was Adelaide's coach last year and where is he now?

I'm not so sure we have recruited players so badly, but otherwise.....

I have no intention of insulting you, Macca. I'd seriously consider insulting Hardnut and tonatopia, though. Their opinions are awfully thought out, if at all.

But don't play the martyr card. If you offer an opinion then you offer it to be challenged.

Just in the same way that you challenged my offering that your binary approach was too simplistic. If you are wanting to offer opinions that go unchallenged, then Demonland is not the place - try writing your own blog. There are people whose opinions I find to be ridiculous and laughable, but they probably find my opinions to be the same. If I post something then I expect it to be challenged.

"See the oppression inherent in the system!!"

Who's responsible for our [censored] disposal? Is it the players or the coaches? Either way I don't think you can blame Neeld for the amount of turnovers caused by kicks that go out of bounds on the full, and handballs that miss targets or go to players under direct pressure.

Why are our skills so [censored]? Is it a confidence thing, or are we just a bunch of spuds? Who taught Davey to kick? Why can't he teach the rest of the squad.

So many questions. Do we have to fix our coaches or our players. Have we stuffed up at the drafting table or in development, or both? Or do we have dud coaches? What is the problem with my team?

  On 07/07/2012 at 09:50, Robot Devil said:

Had to laugh at the Richmond banner: "For tomorrow's headlines we can't wait. Tigers are in the eight"

I got a brief lift on the train home when I saw they were ninth, where they will hopefully remain.

With the awful year we are having please excuse my schadenfreude.

The Train?

Next stop,,, 9thMond!!!

The Tiggers kiddies are all getting excited, think they're back in the 60's !!!

'all aboard'

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-9Qd4jAqWA

is that Chris Connelly on her lap & Jordie on her left???

  On 07/07/2012 at 12:06, Akum said:

What concerns me is that, after so much blind faith being expressed in Bailey, you'd think we'd be "once bitten twice shy" about showing blind faith in a coach until the performances are there.

The reason for a lot of the blind faith in Bailey was the "he's not coaching now, he's coaching for the future" line. We should take great care with the same line about another coach, before the performance is there to justify it.

The fact is, we still don't know whether Neeld can coach or not. We hope he can, but we don't know for sure.

I hear where you're coming from Akum, bit Bailey had templates to work with - Geelong, Collingwood, Saints, Swans, Hawthorn, etc etc.

The recruiting was poor.....too many skinny kids that need 50-80 games in them - now, we're paying for those decisions.

  On 07/07/2012 at 12:11, Hardnut said:

Who was Adelaide's coach last year and where is he now?

I'm not so sure we have recruited players so badly, but otherwise.....

There is just no point, so it's Craig & Neelds fault they are all duds