Just on the thread topic , it's a fair bit of both . Although luck plays a big part in recruiting . Even the clubs that get it right a lot and have a lot of luck still manage to get a number of recruits wrong . I reckon the jury is still out on all our recruits since 2007 .

As for all our senior players 25 yo and older - it comes down to natural talent and development . With a few of them I reckon all the development in the world ain't gonna make 'em much better . Tony Jewell once said "You can't turn (censored) into strawberry jam!" . But others should be much better players . The one thing that's hard to teach is natural awareness , vision and relentless courage . That comes down to great coaching . Northey was terrific in this area . Daniher got us into 6 finals series in 9 years so he must have been doing something right . Now that we're starting to catch up in the development area it should be "all systems go" . Our FD and facilities are miles better since we moved from the Junction oval . But we need to keep coming up with more $$$$ ! .

It seems the top 5 sides have become ultra professional in the way they go about it . It's early doors but there doesn't appear to be even 1 of the top 5 that might fall away . None of them show any signs of taking their foot off the gas . I reckon they see their "window" as being an ongoing thing . They have got the attitude of "We need to be always looking at ways of getting better" . West Coast , Carlton and Hawthorn all held off on re-signing their "out of contract" coaches . It hasn't hurt them .

I honestly believe we need to bring as many very good "free agents" into our club as our salary cap allows . With regards to our senior players I reckon Neeld has put them on notice . 2 young captains says it all and apart from Jamar , none of our senior players are in the leadership group . We'd be the only club where this is the case . Stand corrected on that one though .

All in all , we can partly rebuild quite quickly if we're smart . And we do have to rebuild somewhat . We need an injection of experienced talent .

Cheers (just for you 'Rp')

Edited April 11, 201213 yr by Macca

So the facts you are presenting about the correct draft choice are what the players say about themselves? Gosh.

Nope, maurice - your comment is not quite as clever as you think, despite you placing a child's little comic face next to it.

The tenet of Niall's article is that the game, perhaps not necessarily predictably, changed from 2009 - one effect of which is that tall, mobile forwards (eg Watts - selected 2008) were not seen to be as effective as hard, power forwards (eg Hurley - also selected 2008). Hence, Watts has now become more of a wing option, whilst Hurley is a key player in a modern forward line.

According to Niall, the change in the game (ie, the forward press) was quite well known by most clubs. It also explains the never ending Watts v NikNat v Hurley comparisons, which, for what it's worth, are IMO unfair. Personally, I am not concerned about Watts - I think he'll be a gun and I also think the decision made perfect sense at the time.

BUT - what I took out of the article was further evidence that the MFC, in particular, needed a tall, power forward. And everyone knew it.

Fast forward to the end of 2010. The changes to the game were, by now, quite well known. We had pick 12 in the draft. There were two power forwards predicted to be in the mix at about our pick 12 - Lynch and Darling. Unlike the MFC, not every other club was desperately in need of a hard, power forward. It's not irrelevant that we had also copped a lot of flack over the Watts selection, and that we knew the reasons as to why.

But, notwithstanding this, we then overlooked a hard, power forward (Darling) and recruited another tall, mobile forward (Cook). This surprised virtually everyone in the game - supporters and commentators alike (perhaps not Dr Who and a few others), given the known deficiencies/needs of the MFC's list. To date, the surprises expressed at the time continue to be expressed today.

And that's why I placed the player bios under Niall's articles. It was just interesting to read what the players said about themselves prior to the draft given:

- our needs going into that draft; and

- who we then selected.

BUT - the facts about these players actually speak for themselves. They do not require their own words, or my posts, to make them facts.

Or do you actually not think Cook is a tall, mobile forward and Darling not a hard, power forward?

Enlighten me Maurice.

Edited April 11, 201213 yr by Ron Burgundy

Just on the thread topic , it's a fair bit of both . Although luck plays a big part in recruiting . Even the clubs that get it right a lot and have a lot of luck still manage to get a number of recruits wrong . I reckon the jury is still out on all our recruits since 2007 .

As for all our senior players 25 yo and older - it comes down to natural talent and development . With a few of them I reckon all the development in the world ain't gonna make 'em much better . Tony Jewell once said "You can't turn (censored) into strawberry jam!" . But others should be much better players . The one thing that's hard to teach is natural awareness , vision and relentless courage . That comes down to great coaching . Northey was terrific in this area . Daniher got us into 6 finals series in 9 years so he must have been doing something right . Now that we're starting to catch up in the development area it should be "all systems go" . Our FD and facilities are miles better since we moved from the Junction oval . But we need to keep coming up with more $$$$ ! .

It seems the top 5 sides have become ultra professional in the way they go about it . It's early doors but there doesn't appear to be even 1 of the top 5 that might fall away . None of them show any signs of taking their foot off the gas . I reckon they see their "window" as being an ongoing thing . They have got the attitude of "We need to be always looking at ways of getting better" . West Coast , Carlton and Hawthorn all held off on re-signing their "out of contract" coaches . It hasn't hurt them .

I honestly believe we need to bring as many very good "free agents" into our club as our salary cap allows . With regards to our senior players I reckon Neeld has put them on notice . 2 young captains says it all and apart from Jamar , none of our senior players are in the leadership group . We'd be the only club where this is the case . Stand corrected on that one though .

All in all , we can partly rebuild quite quickly if we're smart . And we do have to rebuild somewhat . We need an injection of experienced talent .

Cheers (just for you 'Rp')

Macca, we Don't need to rebuild...

We just need to add more components to the List which we don't have yet. Thats not a rebuild. It's just adding as you go as all teams Do Every year. We've caught up list wise, have more young potential, (even if it's uneducated as yet) and have much youth on our side.

What we need obviously is to find real leaders which we can see the Footy dept has taken Maior Action at the start of this year in order to 'Sort', Regenerate, our culture.

Yes, we do need to add more Hard Headed, 'get out of my way, I'm coming thru', types. And some class when it comes our way.

But, it's Not a, 'rebuild'.

Macca, we Don't need to rebuild...

We just need to add more components to the List which we don't have yet. Thats not a rebuild. It's just adding as you go as all teams Do Every year. We've caught up list wise, have more young potential, (even if it's uneducated as yet) and have much youth on our side.

What we need obviously is to find real leaders which we can see the Footy dept has taken Maior Action at the start of this year in order to 'Sort', Regenerate, our culture.

Yes, we do need to add more Hard Headed, 'get out of my way, I'm coming thru', types. And some class when it comes our way.

But, it's Not a, 'rebuild'.

Agree. A couple of players make a big difference if they are good. Take out Rioli and Franklin from Hawthorn and they are nowhere near as good. Same with Pendles and Thomas or Swan from Pies, Judd and Murphy from Blues. We need to add a couple of class mids and maybe with our 3 picks in the first round this year we will do exactly that.

But, notwithstanding this, we then overlooked a hard, power forward (Darling) and recruited another tall, mobile forward (Cook). This surprised virtually everyone in the game - supporters and commentators alike (perhaps not Dr Who and a few others), given the known deficiencies/needs of the MFC's list. To date, the surprises expressed at the time continue to be expressed today.

Nope this is wrong - the word everyone should read the "forum keyboard hero" -

Now the facts - Prior to the draft we where seeking a key power forward that long term could play 1st or at worst 2nd Tall.

Our number 1 target was Tom Lynch - who subsequently went 1 pick early to GC17. Next best choice available that meet our needs was the then AAU18 centre-half forward - Lucas Cook Ballarat Rebels - a successful hunting ground for us. Lucas was a good size, quality mark and very reliable kick. Nice level headed kid that got a great rap from his current coaching staff - was a listener and "easy to coach"

Now unlike the original poster who obviously over rates keyboard heroes at such sites like bigfooty etc. The rub on Jack Darling was - had a very poor under 18 year, although had dominated at under 17. Jack had a mature body but was only 191cm, concern was could he step up from anything more than a 3rd tall at AFL.

His positives where he was "aggressive" but so much so there was a "big doubt" - (well designed rumour a head injury might effect his future in AFL) - he had dominated U18 football as a 17yo. He was passionate about the game.

Negatives, height for 1st or 2nd tall - under-lying fear although "he would play anywhere" he was a West Australian at heart and a blokey-bloke that enjoyed spending time with his "mates".

Now in reality/facts Darling was overlooked by every team in league during the 1st round. Eagles picked him up with PP pick.

The only people it surprised where the keyboard heroes that spend too much time in cyber space & not enough time watch the kids in REAL TIME.

Should add I doubt Ron will read this. But such is life.

Edited April 12, 201213 yr by Dr Who

But, notwithstanding this, we then overlooked a hard, power forward (Darling) and recruited another tall, mobile forward (Cook). This surprised virtually everyone in the game - supporters and commentators alike (perhaps not Dr Who and a few others), given the known deficiencies/needs of the MFC's list. To date, the surprises expressed at the time continue to be expressed today.

Yep. I don't understand how any one could seriously argue we should have taken Darling instead of Cook. It was an absolute no brainer. Even if you think that Cook will end up being a better player Darling had been playing senior footy in a strong league (the WAFL) and as we have seen was ready to step straight in senior AFL footy, as a KPF no less. We were crying out for such a player to give some chop out to Watts and Jurrah and we would have a player now who could fill that role at base rates. Even if he did end up going home to WA after a few years he would have served his purpose and perhaps we could have benefited from a trade.

As i said no brainer.

Edited April 12, 201213 yr by binman

Nope this is wrong - the word everyone should read the "forum keyboard hero" -

Now the facts - Prior to the draft we where seeking a key power forward that long term could play 1st or at worst 2nd Tall.

Our number 1 target was Tom Lynch - who subsequently went 1 pick early to GC17. Next best choice available that meet our needs was the then AAU18 centre-half forward - Lucas Cook Ballarat Rebels - a successful hunting ground for us. Lucas was a good size, quality mark and very reliable kick. Nice level headed kid that got a great rap from his current coaching staff - was a listener and "easy to coach"

Now unlike the original poster who obviously over rates keyboard heroes at such sites like bigfooty etc. The rub on Jack Darling was - had a very poor under 18 year, although had dominated at under 17. Jack had a mature body but was only 191cm, concern was could he step up from anything more than a 3rd tall at AFL.

His positives where he was "aggressive" but so much so there was a "big doubt" - (well designed rumour a head injury might effect his future in AFL) - he had dominated U18 football as a 17yo. He was passionate about the game.

Negatives, height for 1st or 2nd tall - under-lying fear although "he would play anywhere" he was a West Australian at heart and a blokey-bloke that enjoyed spending time with his "mates".

Now in reality/facts Darling was overlooked by every team in league during the 1st round. Eagles picked him up with PP pick.

The only people it surprised where the keyboard heroes that spend too much time in cyber space & not enough time watch the kids in REAL TIME.

* I would like us to get a couple of 'Creative aggressive type forwards, BUT, I was not sold on little Darling. and I still wonder if he'll end up a defender one day.

But I hope we stay on the Lookout for a big Ego forward to complement our easy to coach types. A Stallion.

* I would like us to get a couple of 'Creative aggressive type forwards, BUT, I was not sold on little Darling. and I still wonder if he'll end up a defender one day.

But I hope we stay on the Lookout for a big Ego forward to complement our easy to coach types. A Stallion.

HOWE !!!!

Yep. I don't understand how any one could seriously argue we should have taken Darling instead of Cook. It was an absolute no brainer. Even if you think that Cook will end up being a better player Darling had been playing senior footy in a strong league (the WAFL) and as we have seen was ready to step straight in senior AFL footy, as a KPF no less. We were crying out for such a player to give some chop out to Watts and Jurrah and we would have a player now who could fill that role at base rates. Even if he did end up going home to WA after a few years he would have served his purpose and perhaps we could have benefited from a trade.

As i said no brainer.

You might wanna check over those first few sentences, cos you contradict yourself.

As for the bolded part, it is clearly revisionist to suggest that.

Maybe you, like many others, formed your opinions from bigfooty writeups from his bottom-age year when he looked dominant?

Those that actually watched him in 2010 would know that although he was a man-child, and was expected to dominate and be a clear top 3 choice, Darling had a very disappointing year.

He was comprehensively beaten by taller defenders time and again at the champs, and simply did not live up to his billing. All year.

Tom Swift ring a bell? "Best 16 year old ever seen"? And countless others who drop off into obscurity.

Then came the school issues and the fight outside a pub. On top of that there were injury concerns after the hit.

Carefully orchestrated rumour campaign by WestCoast or not, the concerns were still there.

Darling went at 26 and was heavily overlooked FOR A BEVY OF REASONS.

And on top of that, what exactly makes Cook mobile, but Darling not?

HOWE !!!!

Yes, I think we've got better value in Howe anyway.

A 3rd tall running forward, and we still have Cook to develop as a tall contested marking KPF.

Given the fact that many "experts" out there are now describing our list as poor, not that I necessarily agree, is it the result of poor recruiting, poor development or a combination of both?

Many players seem to kick on quickly at other clubs while many of our high picks seem to stagnate. Again let me say when I give a few examples I am not writing off these players. We took Watts and Hurley who went later is a strongly built star of his club. Like wise Melksham is a developed mid while our higher pick of a couple of years earlier Morton is playing at Casey with the same build and development as when he came to the club. Cook our first pick of 2010 seems a long way off though so many of his year are now regulars. Blease also seems to have gone backwards and I am not sure that Bennell has developed above his natural talent he had when selected.

I know recruiting is not an absolute science but have we failed to get the best at our selections or have we failed to develop our players?.

Something is clearly or has been clearly wrong in the past at the MFC.

both have been bad, our recruiting has been crap and the development has been worse, l'm sure Neeld will do his best but its going to take 3-4 more years before we start winning games again. l've given up on this year and reckon we will win 2-3 games with a % of about 50. l'm not going to watch it anymore, been a member for 20 years and will be again, l'm just not bothering getting depressed over it. We will get flogged by Richmond this week and that's enough for me, no more.

Just a question for those who keep talking about how good Darling is....and I do think he's a solid player. Would he appear to be as good if he did not land at West Coast where he is surround by other tall KPFs like Kennedy, Lynch, a resting rotation of Cox and Naitanui? Darling is no taller than Bate or Dunn, just stronger and more agile.

I guess i'm just not convinced yet that long-term, Darling is the better choice. I would love to have him on the team, but he fell all the way to pick 26. Is he that much better than our 33rd pick of that year, Jeremy Howe??? I might be putting blind faith in our recruiting team, but i think that it's just too early to truely know if we made the right call given how it's only the second preseason for each player, and everyone knows that it takes longer for taller KPF's to progress.

You might wanna check over those first few sentences, cos you contradict yourself.

As for the bolded part, it is clearly revisionist to suggest that.

Maybe you, like many others, formed your opinions from bigfooty writeups from his bottom-age year when he looked dominant?

To clarify. We should have taken Darling not Cook. It was an error, in my opinion, not to do so.

I don't see how you could argue it is revisionism to say Darling had been playing senior footy in a strong league (the WAFL) and as we have seen was ready to step straight in senior AFL footy, as a KPF no less. ​It is a statement of fact - he was playing senior WAFL football and he has slotted straight into a top 4 team as a KPF.

Jose, there is a reason some posters are adamant you are also Dr Who (i could care less if you are or aren't though i have to say having multiple names strikes me as very strange). Both of you (and for that matter previous incarnations such as e25 et al) seem to feel it is appropriate to consistently use an insulting, condescending tone in your posts. It almost seems to be your default position.

Perhaps your goal is to deliberatley create conflict (and if so that's sad) but surely you would be cognisant of the fact that consistently using such a tone contributes nothing positive, often detracts from your argument and makes it hard to take your posts seriously.

As my dear departed gran often said about wankers such as Sam Newman - ïf you can't say anything nice, don't bother saying anything"

Edited April 12, 201213 yr by binman

Because he wasn't performing - Darling looked decidedly average, in what was his final year before the draft when he should have been performing his best.

It led to very obvious questions of whether he was just a manchild who had it easy against the kids, but would struggle against men and taller opponents.

And if you ask me, we still haven't seen conclusive evidence that he will succeed as a KPF. He currently plays as a 3rd tall, where his aerobic capacity is handy, but he is far from a world beater.

To say he is a "power forward" is a misnomer.

He is against the skinny mobile 3rd tall defenders, but against a KPD like Frawley or Glass or Taylor or many others he is just another forward.

And I don't think his contested marking is anything to write home about - unlike Cook.

Good.

He has aggression, and I like that.

I wish we had more of it.

But beyond that, I think for us Cook has the potential to be more valuable.

As Leigh Matthews said in reference to draftess, you can make them bigger, but it's very difficult to make them faster or taller.

To clarify. We should have taken Darling not Cook. It was an error, in my opinion, not to do so.

I don't see how you could argue it is revisionism to say Darling had been playing senior footy in a strong league (the WAFL) and as we have seen was ready to step straight in senior AFL footy, as a KPF no less. ​It is a statement of fact - he was playing senior WAFL football and he has slotted straight into a top 4 team as a KPF.

Jose, there is a reason some posters are adamant you are also Dr Who (i could care less if you are or aren't though i have to say having multiple names strikes me as very strange). Both of you (and for that matter previous incarnations such as e25 et al) seem to feel it is appropriate to consistently use an insulting, condescending tone in your posts. It almost seems to be your default position.

Perhaps your goal is to deliberatley create conflict (and if so that's sad) but surely you would be cognisant of the fact that consistently using such a tone contributes nothing positive, often detracts from your argument and makes it hard to take your posts seriously.

As my dear departed gran often said about wankers such as Sam Newman - ïf you can't say anything nice, don't bother saying anything"

He is a 3rd or 4th tall.......not a KPF at all, he is a Howe type play, or an old Bate type

HOWE !!!!

Yeah? Is he of that mold. I'd also like to see Ricky let rip.

But would love to see someone of the caliber of AJako, but with more team tendency.

I think for us Cook has the potential to be more valuable.

I hope you a right about this, well to be more accurate i hope he delivers on that potential. I suppose part of where i'm coming from with that is if he does deliver on that potential it is likely not going to be for another 2-3 years, by which time Darling may well have racked up 80 odd games of footy.

You are right he probably isn't a power forward as such but the aggression you note would be very handy over the next 4 seasons and is something we so sorely lack. As much as Miller was frustrating i miss his desire to throw his weight around

To clarify. We should have taken Darling not Cook. It was an error, in my opinion, not to do so.

I don't see how you could argue it is revisionism to say Darling had been playing senior footy in a strong league (the WAFL) and as we have seen was ready to step straight in senior AFL footy, as a KPF no less. ​It is a statement of fact - he was playing senior WAFL football and he has slotted straight into a top 4 team as a KPF.

Jose, there is a reason some posters are adamant you are also Dr Who (i could care less if you are or aren't though i have to say having multiple names strikes me as very strange). Both of you (and for that matter previous incarnations such as e25 et al) seem to feel it is appropriate to consistently use an insulting, condescending tone in your posts. It almost seems to be your default position.

Perhaps your goal is to deliberatley create conflict (and if so that's sad) but surely you would be cognisant of the fact that consistently using such a tone contributes nothing positive, often detracts from your argument and makes it hard to take your posts seriously.

As my dear departed gran often said about wankers such as Sam Newman - ïf you can't say anything nice, don't bother saying anything"

More rubbish. We will stick to the footy if you blokes do too. Practise what you preach. But yes, we do think many views around here are just looking to blame "somebody" - its our players fault, its our coaches fault, its our recruiters fault, NOW its DR WHO fault!!!! Sorry but get real.

We have a mind-set/ cultural problem. If you cant see that no big deal. Some of us can - we merely mirror your actions - it seems like the law of the streets around here. We are footy people - but not footy people with a mis-guided passion. Join us if you want - reject us if that makes you feel better.

Happy to discuss footy with you anyday.

Should haves,could haves maybes,he's better than him, No he's better.

We have the list we do and it's up to the FD to develop this list as best they can

I believe we have a lot of potential,but It takes time(I know we've all heard it before) but you can't put 26 year old minds and bodies into 18 to 22 year olds

I hope you a right about this, well to be more accurate i hope he delivers on that potential. I suppose part of where i'm coming from with that is if he does deliver on that potential it is likely not going to be for another 2-3 years, by which time Darling may well have racked up 80 odd games of footy.

You are right he probably isn't a power forward as such but the aggression you note would be very handy over the next 4 seasons and is something we so sorely lack. As much as Miller was frustrating i miss his desire to throw his weight around

So what?

What will we need when actually challenging for a flag?

A 2nd or 3rd strong KPF who clunks contested marks?

Or a 4th or 5th mobile 3rd tall forward?

Even with the same numbers, which is more valuable?

I'm chasing a flag in the next decade.

In my view, wanting Darling is chasing a few more wins now.

edit: Do we sorely lack the agression?

Or do we lack the opportunities to use it?

Tapscott, Petterd, Jamar, Trengove, Moloney, Sylvia, Frawley, Magner, Jones, McKenzie and more have all shown it.

It's easy to be aggressive when you're winning and know where to direct.

When you're still learning, carrying on like an angry man yelling at the sea will get you nowhere.

Edited April 12, 201213 yr by José Mourinho

Macca, we Don't need to rebuild...

We just need to add more components to the List which we don't have yet. Thats not a rebuild. It's just adding as you go as all teams Do Every year. We've caught up list wise, have more young potential, (even if it's uneducated as yet) and have much youth on our side.

What we need obviously is to find real leaders which we can see the Footy dept has taken Maior Action at the start of this year in order to 'Sort', Regenerate, our culture.

Yes, we do need to add more Hard Headed, 'get out of my way, I'm coming thru', types. And some class when it comes our way.

But, it's Not a, 'rebuild'.

I did say partly 'dl' with regards a rebuild . All clubs are at least in this phase . I reckon we will turn over at least 8 - 10 players at years end .

Cheers

Yep i reckon chasing a few more wins now wouldn't hurt. Getting smashed doesn't help our chances of winning a flag. Besides adding Darling would have helped build a structure around (whether that be Neelds or the then coach Bailey who was on record as saying we needed a big player up forward to compete), one of the arguments for getting Clark this year. And for that matter an arguments (along with adding grunt) for taking Sellar, Couch and Magner rather than younger players with more potential.

Its the bird in the hand argument really. We have no idea if Cook will come on, if he will be the 2nd or 3rd strong KPF who clunks contested marks. We do know Darling, barring injury is likely to be a 150 game player. And on the logic that big men take time he is likely to get better and be reaching his peak about the same time Cook is playing his first handful of games. As a punter i like the odds of Darling being the better pick.

The obvious question (which i think may have been posted by someone else) is if we had a choice right now between the 2 who would you take. I guess JM you would take Cook but i'd suggest, and i could be wrong, most footy experts (eg media analysts etc) would take Darling. I reckon Neeld certainly would.

Edited April 12, 201213 yr by binman

Yep i reckon chasing a few more wins now wouldn't hurt. Getting smashed doesn't help our chances of winning a flag. Besides adding Darling would have helped build a structure around (whether that be Neelds or the then coach Bailey who was on record as saying we needed a big player up forward to compete), one of the arguments for getting Clark this year. And for that matter an arguments (along with adding grunt) for taking Sellar, Couch and Magner rather than younger players with more potential.

Its the bird in the hand argument really. We have no idea if Cook will come on, if he will be the 2nd or 3rd strong KPF who clunks contested marks. We do know Darling, barring injury is likely to be a 150 game player. And on the logic that big men take time he is likely to get better and be reaching his peak about the same time Cook is playing his first handful of games. As a punter i like the odds of Darling being the better pick.

The obvious question (which i think may have been posted by someone else) is if we had a choice right now between the 2 who would you take. I guess JM you would take Cook but i'd suggest, and i could be wrong, most footy experts (eg media analysts etc) would take Darling. I reckon Neeld certainly would.

We know NOW that Darling has been alright, but in 2010 playing in the WAFL and the U/18 Championships he definitely wasn't performing as expected.

Once again, I contend you're going off his reviews from his bottom-age season, and not actually from witnessing his top-age form.

Yeah? Is he of that mold. I'd also like to see Ricky let rip.

But would love to see someone of the caliber of AJako, but with more team tendency.

Pfft. If he can kick 4.25 goals a game and absolutely intimidate defenders, I'd have another Jako, even without team tendencies, in a heartbeat.

We know NOW that Darling has been alright, but in 2010 playing in the WAFL and the U/18 Championships he definitely wasn't performing as expected.

Once again, I contend you're going off his reviews from his bottom-age season, and not actually from witnessing his top-age form.

At the risk of going round and round the Darling bush I put more stock in his AFL form than his 2010 underage form. In any case the fact he was being selected for a senior WAFL team indicates he good enough in their eyes to play at a high level and against men so we would have been pretty confident he could have made the next step (which of course he has). So his "top age form"was good enough to play senior footy in the WAFL as an 18 year old, that's good enough for me.

I wonder if Cook was still available at 26 if WC would have picked him before Darling. Me thinks not. Well played WC

Edited April 12, 201213 yr by binman